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Why move from 5er to 6e? (List of improvements?)


Surrealone

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The financial cost, time cost to re-learn rules, re-build and re-approve characters, etc. is sizable for a 5-man gaming group to invest in migration from 5er to 6e.  (Note: This is a group where every player insists on owning a copy of the rules for use during downtime.)  That said, I'm beginning to dig into 6e rules (a la reading a copy of Champions Complete that I own) in consideration of bringing 6e up with the group.  Before I continue, I'd like to know why 6e is worth moving to from a 5er game.

 

To that end, I've repeatedly searched for a concise list of improvements -- and it a) doesn't exist, B) isn't coming up in my results as a result of a query that's too strict, or c) is coming up in a less strict search ... but is buried by all the other results that come up.

 

Thus, I ask -- why move from 5er to 6e?  What justifies the financial and time costs for a 5-man group to do so?  Examples of improvements might include:

  • Simplified character /world/object creation
  • More streamlined gameplay (combat, non-combat, etc.-- please be specific!)
  • Fixes to previously problematic rules (Comeliness removal, healing fixes, etc. as examples?  -- please be specific!)
  • etc.

 

If I'm to suggest going through the 5er-to-6e conversion time/expense/effort to my group, there had best be a DARN GOOD set of reasons.  Some convincing ammo in my hip pocket (that might also serve as info to point my eyes to power improvements, game improvements, etc.)  ... would really help!

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5e to 6e only costs $40. total peanuts. that includes the softcover book and the PDF (if you buy it here). I am talking about Champions Complete, which does have a full version of the Hero System rules, just edited down for clarity and to save weight and pagecount. BTW if you use Hero Designer (and you should be using Hero Designer), 6e character gen is included for no extra cost.

VPP's are fixed, ie you don't have to take fracking huge VPP if all you need is a bunch of little powers for your utility belt.
 

Elemental Controls are replaced by the Unified Power limitation. So, no more arguing with players who want to put powers that don't cost end into their EC. They just buy all of their powers with Unified Power and be done with it. Like EC, powers are drained as though they are a single power.
 

No Figured Characteristics, The stats are still there (ie PD, ED, SPD, Rec etc), but you don't need to buy primary stats high just to save points. Also, melee characters no longer get a huge point break because they invested heavily in Primary stats. Also OCV, DCV, OMCV (Offensive Mental Combat Value) DMCV (Defensive Mental Combat Value) are now stats that can be purchased and aren't tied to either Dex or Ego. What this means is that it's far easier to make characters that fall outside of the game norm. ie If I want to build the old martial artist that has bad knees. I can buy his OCV, Spd way high, but leave his DCV and Dex Low. All stats are cheaper (All primaries ex Dex are 1pt/pip, secondaries are like wise less expensive). Characters in 6e are more expensive because of this change.

Com is now Distinctive Features talent (which gives +1d6 presence depending on how the character's features are distinctive, ie beauty would allow those pre dice to be used vs people who are attracted to the PC with DF good looking). As others point out below, this can also be used for someone who is hideous or anything else that is distinctive.

Here's a doc that lists the changes to Character gen 5e to 6e
http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/1-5th-edition-to-6th-edition-character-creation-summary/

 

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More minor stuff.

 

5e's Rapid Fire & Sweep are simplified into a single option called Multiple Attack.

 

Getting rid of Figured Characteristics was a non-starter for a LOT of board regulars but it really does open up new options for character diversity that just could not be done in 5e.

 

I have built quite a few Justice League characters at starting PC point levels (350 5e & 400 6e) which can be used as a practical comparison between editions.  Batman is pretty much the same in both.  Characteristic heavy characters like Superman and Flash get a little less powerful as far as DEX and Combat Value is concerned but they get more versatile due to the upgrades from Multipowers to affordable VPPs.

 

Here is a link to the 5e versions - http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/WriteUps.aspx

 

My 6e stuff can be seen in the Hero Designer Download section of this forum (all examples include downloadable html exports similar to the 5e version on Killershrike's site if you don't have Hero Designer).  The online links just don't work anymore due to the end of HeroCentral.

 

HM

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To add to the excellent points Tasha and HM have made:

 

Replacing Force Wall with Barrier makes it actually possible to create decent walls (energy or real) without taking out a new mortgage on the Bat Cave.

 

Decoupling OCV and DCV, as well as SPD, from DEX should avoid artificially driving up DEX values.  (We had a DEX Arms Race in one campaign.)

 

Replacing COM with Striking Appearance gives actual in-game effects to hideous or beautiful characters.  So the Monster (who might have had low COM with no real in-game effect in 5E) could have levels of Striking Appearance that increase his presence attack.  (Tasha covered this on the beauty side, but I wanted to point out the opposite as well).

 

One note:  on a straight 5E -> 6E conversion, the characteristics do come out costing higher as Tasha pointed out.  However, a true conversion might include lowering some primary characteristics that were originally bought up simply to take advantage of figured / secondary characteristics (e.g. a non-martial artist, non-speedster character with 23 DEX mainly because that gives him 8 OCV, and 8 DCV).  So the 6E character could be 15 DEX and still have high CVs (each at whichever level fits that character, not necessarily in lockstep with each other).

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I find that 6E has tried to go even further in the Build Exactly What You Want direction.

 

Large things like uncoupling Figuring Characteristics allows for a greater level of granularity and control over Character creation. It also removes a lot of similarity and cookie-cutter aspects.

 

Minor things like allowing anyone to try and deflect a ranged attack (within the reasonableness of the game) or the retooling of Multiple Attack to cover almost all variations of using more than one attack a Phase.

 

The addition and shift in some of the Powers allows for greater diversity and specificity in builds. Damage Negation is a very useful new tool, for instance. Even seemingly silly things like renaming "Energy Blast" to "Blast" reminds us that the focus of the Power is the Effect, not the Special Effect.

 

I think the biggest thing from a Main Character/PC point of view, if you do decide to upgrade - take some time to not just directly translate a character from 5E to 6E (even given the allowances of point cost increases); but to place points aside for a minute and really ReBuild the characters with a bent towards creating a more exact vision of what the creators originally wanted. See where that takes you, then build more strict translations and look at the differences and see if 6E really does hold more potential for your group.

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On the other side of the coin, I don't think 6E has really streamlined play (nor has it made it too much more complex*).  To me, most changes were in the "fixing problematic rules" realm, as well as the granularity and control that GA covers quite well.

 

*One area that I didn't expect to screw us up as much as it did, was switching from 2m hexes to straight meters.  We use hex maps for combat; if I draw the map at 1m hexes, the result is zoomed in and doesn't cover as much ground.  If using 2m hexes, people consistently try going twice as far as their characters are able, mess up range mods (the HD sheets list the breakpoints at meters), etc.

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We've had the Hex thing come up as a niggling issue as well. Less so when we stay at 1m or 2m Hexes, but when we zoom out further, like 4m hexes to showcase really large areas to fight in. There's always that pause at the start of the fight where everyone translates their movement on the character sheet to hexes on the map. But it's certainly allowed for some much more diverse fighting ranges and combat challenges.

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5e to 6e only costs $40. total peanuts.

 

I had already found the 2-page conversion summary ... but I'm looking for more detail than it gives.  Much thanks for making sure it was linked here, though! Also, as I noted, every player would insist on a copy of the rules, so we're talking $40 x 5 people = $200 .... from a group perspective.  That's not chump change.  And then there's the time investment, which is worth yet again more to anyone who actually values his/her time (even when having fun, it has a price tag).  This is the reason I need a good grip on the advantages -- as the costs, from a group perspective, are not 'total peanuts' as you put it. 

 

Thanks for the input from all, so far.  I'm actually aggregating it on a PROS/CONS sheet for my own use.  I consider the hexes-to-meters issue a CON/drawback to 6e, by the way.  Another one I've spotted is that Barriers must be anchored and there's no specific call-out for non-anchored barriers -- whereas in 5er it was explicitly stated they could float if permitted by GM.  (GM can always allow it, I know...)

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The Hexes Aren't That Large Of A Problem, Especially if you have played games outside of HERO. I mean games like D + D use squares, which is what i use. It makes for slight difficulty determining things like Turn Mode (Which I lowered to 45 degrees instead of 60) and AOE: Cone (Which I Normally Replace With AOE: Line), but overall it works well. 

 

 

 

I would just buy the PDF version of 6E1 and 6E2. Together in the shop they are $30. If you are just getting the PDF of Champions I think it is $20. And Then again, the one for Fantasy Hero (Which Contains A Full Rules set) costs $10 For The PDF!

 

 

 

As Words Die, The Transition Phase Is Not Yet Complete. 

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As I noted, every player would insist on a copy of the rules, so we're talking $40 x 5 people = $200 .... from a group perspective.  That's not chump change.  And then there's the time investment, which is worth yet again more to anyone who actually values his/her time (even when having fun, it has a price tag).  This is the reason I need a good grip on the advantages -- as the costs, from a group perspective, are not 'total peanuts' as you put it.

 

That issue aside, thanks for the input, so far, I'm actually aggregating it on a PROS/CONS sheet for my own use.  I consider the hexes-to-meters issue a CON/drawback to 6e, by the way...

 

If money were an issue and I didn't have a problem with 5eR, I'd just stick with that.

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Another one I've spotted is that Barriers must be anchored and there's no specific call-out for non-anchored barriers -- whereas in 5er it was explicitly stated they could float if permitted by GM.  (GM can always allow it, I know...)

 

Non-Anchored is a 10 point adder - page 52 Champions Complete.

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On the other side of the coin, I don't think 6E has really streamlined play (nor has it made it too much more complex*).  To me, most changes were in the "fixing problematic rules" realm, as well as the granularity and control that GA covers quite well.

 

 

Underline and read this section again.

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I'm what's often referred to as a "FrankenHero" player. My group's Hero game engine is mostly 5E, but we've kept a few things from 4E that we liked, and have imported some things from 6E that we liked. Since you already have the 6E rules you might consider just adding such elements from that to your 5E game as appeal to you, and apprise your players of those changes so they don't need to purchase the full 6E rules themselves.

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I'm what's often referred to as a "FrankenHero" player. My group's Hero game engine is mostly 5E, but we've kept a few things from 4E that we liked, and have imported some things from 6E that we liked. Since you already have the 6E rules you might consider just adding such elements from that to your 5E game as appeal to you, and apprise your players of those changes so they don't need to purchase the full 6E rules themselves.

 

Yeah, we play a 4.5 version of Hero.  I haven't touched 6th at all, but some of our guys have bought it, and I'm sure we might eventually incorporate some of the ideas from it.

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I would just buy the PDF version of 6E1 and 6E2. Together in the shop they are $30. If you are just getting the PDF of Champions I think it is $20. And Then again, the one for Fantasy Hero (Which Contains A Full Rules set) costs $10 For The PDF!

I actually have Champions Complete (and the PDF for it) -- but have already noted some things are missing from it (items confirmed on these forums, no less).  A good example would be the basic template that players start working from (Straight 10's in what was formerly the primaries, 3's for CVs, 2 SPEED, 2 PD/2 ED, 4 REC, 20 END, 10 BODY, 20 STUN, 12 RUNning, 4 SWIMming, 4 Leaping).  I couldn't find that anywhere despite reading about characteristic sellbacks.  (i.e. I couldn't locate that from which one would commence such a sellback!)

 

If money were an issue and I didn't have a problem with 5eR, I'd just stick with that.

Well, the longer we delay a move to 6e, the more dated our materials become, as support material that's coming out is for 6e.  So, there's one reason to move.  I personally don't have an issue with the funding, but some of the players do.

 

Non-Anchored is a 10 point adder - page 52 Champions Complete.

Thanks, I missed that!

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I mean The FRED is a good system, I used to play in it, and I love it. I switched to 6E and I thought someone of The FRED's downfalls (such as the broken VPP, the inability to build a "scary is a factor" due to Comeliness, and combined stats making DEX cost a fortune.) were fixed and some of the new problems (The Meter System) for 6E were outweighed by the problems they fixed. I have felt the pain (Not Really For Me Though) of dealing with meters. However, maybe a player could use 6E rules, but use the hexes like The FRED. 

 

Going on a different route, I think that $10 for Fantasy Hero: Complete is not that much of an investment. Besides, it has a full rules set and come with example characters. It also is a good transition piece, as it was the first thing I got when switching to 6E. 

 

 

You said the template was missing

 

 

 

 

STR: 10 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

DEX: 10 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

CON: 10 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

INT: 10 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

EGO: 10 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

PRE: 10 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

OCV: 3 (Reducible to 0)

DCV: 3 (Reducible to 0)

OMCV: 3 (Reducible to 0)

DMCV: 3 (Reducible to 0)

SPEED: 2 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

PD: 2 (Reducible to 0)

ED: 2 (Reducible to 0)

REC: 4 (Reducible to 1, 0 with permission) 

END: 20 (Reducible to 0)

BODY:10 (Reducible to 1)

STUN: 20 (Reducible to 1)

Running: 12m (Reducible to 0)

Swimming 4m (Reducible to 0)

Leaping 4m Horizontal and 2m Vertical (Reducible to 0)

 

 

As Words Die, I'm A Missionary For 6E and I am preaching it. 

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Hyper-Man:
Pssst!  I'm a player, not the GM in this scenario.  This is also part of why I need to have a confirmed list of benefits if I'm going to walk up to the table to suggest 6e over 5er.

 

Tasha:
You mentioned "VPP's are fixed, ie you don't have to take fracking huge VPP if all you need is a bunch of little powers for your utility belt."  I took a quick (emphasis on 'quick') look at 5er vs 6e VPP's and didn't see anything substantial/new regarding VPP's...

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Re: Cost

 

As long as you have a hard copy of Champions Complete your players could also get a hard copy of the HERO System Basic Rulebook for ~$20 from DrivethruRPG.com.

 

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/64691/HERO-System-Basic-Rulebook

The store here has it for $14.99 for a PDF! 

 

 

As Words Die, We See A $5 Dollar Discount, Enough For A Long Sandwich!

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I proudly still use 5th Edition and could care less if any of the materials I use/create seem "dated" to anyone. I for one do not agree that 6th is some "objective improvement." There is no such thing when it comes to editions of pen-and-paper RPGs, there is only what works for you and what doesn't work for you; anyone who tells you different is full of crap.

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Hyper-Man:

Pssst!  I'm a player, not the GM in this scenario.  This is also part of why I need to have a confirmed list of benefits if I'm going to walk up to the table to suggest 6e over 5er.

 

Tasha:

You mentioned "VPP's are fixed, ie you don't have to take fracking huge VPP if all you need is a bunch of little powers for your utility belt."  I took a quick (emphasis on 'quick') look at 5er vs 6e VPP's and didn't see anything substantial/new regarding VPP's...

 

Look at the Reed Richards link in my SIG.  I was able to build an asymmetric Gadget VPP (control cost different than pool cost) which is not possible using 5e rules.

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Look at the Reed Richards link in my SIG.  I was able to build an asymmetric Gadget VPP (control cost different than pool cost) which is not possible using 5e rules.

Thanks, that helped.  It's a subtle but VERY important distinction that in 5er and earlier, the active points in powers could not exceed the pool cost ... whereas in 6e it is the control cost that sets the active limit.

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I actually have Champions Complete (and the PDF for it) -- but have already noted some things are missing from it (items confirmed on these forums, no less).  A good example would be the basic template that players start working from (Straight 10's in what was formerly the primaries, 3's for CVs, 2 SPEED, 2 PD/2 ED, 4 REC, 20 END, 10 BODY, 20 STUN, 12 RUNning, 4 SWIMming, 4 Leaping).  I couldn't find that anywhere despite reading about characteristic sellbacks.  (i.e. I couldn't locate that from which one would commence such a sellback!)

Every characteristic description starts by listing the base value for that characteristic, followed immediately by the cost (CC 13-20).

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Hyper-Man:

Pssst!  I'm a player, not the GM in this scenario.  This is also part of why I need to have a confirmed list of benefits if I'm going to walk up to the table to suggest 6e over 5er.

 

 

Ah, I see. That does make a difference.

 

Nonetheless, I would still suggest discussing adding selected 6E components to your 5E game with your group, in the name of ease of use and cost effectiveness.

 

Honestly, I would counsel against viewing "new stuff coming out for 6E" as a pressure to switch from 5E. It isn't hard to convert most 6E materials to 5E. While the pace of that new stuff coming out is, frankly, pretty sluggish. Since you mentioned Champions Complete I'm guessing your group plays supers primarily; and there is a vast amount of published material available for 5E. You can even buy it from this website's online store for half its original cover price.

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