Why move from 5er to 6e? (List of improvements?)

[Scott Baker]

 

Ah, I see. That does make a difference.

 

Nonetheless, I would still suggest discussing adding selected 6E components to your 5E game with your group, in the name of ease of use and cost effectiveness.

 

Honestly, I would counsel against viewing "new stuff coming out for 6E" as a pressure to switch from 5E. It isn't hard to convert most 6E materials to 5E. While the pace of that new stuff coming out is, frankly, pretty sluggish. Since you mentioned Champions Complete I'm guessing your group plays supers primarily; and there is a vast amount of published material available for 5E. You can even buy it from this website's online store for half its original cover price.

In support of this...I ran a session in a 5E game. I handed one of the players a 6E villain character sheet to run for me and away we went. I may have gone so far as to say, "X used to be named Y," for one of the powers, but I wouldn't swear to it. Other than some of the fiddly bits where the differences have already been called out, there's enough crossover to use resources from one edition to another without difficulty.

[Surrealone]

Every characteristic description starts by listing the base value for that characteristic, followed immediately by the cost (CC 13-20).

 

That is something I hadn't noticed considering I already know what the characteristics are -- and have not yet committed to reading the book cover-to-cover (because I won't bother spending time in that way if there's not enough justification, hence this thread).

 

There was not a concise breakdown/listing (a la character sheet style) anywhere in the book that I could find after consulting the character sheet in the back of the book, the index, and the table of contents.  For comparison, the character sheet in the back of the 5er book -does- have the base values.  Why they didn't include the base values on the character sheet in the back of the CC book (and probably the 6e book, too, I'm guessing) ... is beyond me.  This is a quick place to find all base values in one listing without having to read pages of info -- and has historically been there in each editions' stock character sheets...

 

From my perspective there's irony in something called 'Champions Complete' ... being incomplete (compared to previous versions). I think I've got firm ground to stand on when I compare the concise listing in the 5er book in the form of a character sheet with all base values shown on it .... to the lack of base values on the 6e sheet in the CC book.  One shouldn't have to read multiple pages and all characteristic descriptions/definitions to find these...

[ghost-angel]

Page 227 - big full page chart listing Base Values, Costs, Effects, and Page # of full description.

[Scott Baker]

That is something I hadn't noticed considering I already know what the characteristics are -- and have not yet committed to reading the book cover-to-cover (because I won't bother spending time in that way if there's not enough justification, hence this thread).

 

There was not a concise breakdown/listing (a la character sheet style) anywhere in the book that I could find after consulting the character sheet in the back of the book, the index, and the table of contents.  For comparison, the character sheet in the back of the 5er book -does- have the base values.  Why they didn't include the base values on the character sheet in the back of the CC book (and probably the 6e book, too, I'm guessing) ... is beyond me.  This is a quick place to find all base values in one listing without having to read pages of info -- and has historically been there in each editions' stock character sheets...

 

From my perspective there's irony in something called 'Champions Complete' ... being incomplete (compared to previous versions). I think I've got firm ground to stand on when I compare the concise listing in the 5er book in the form of a character sheet with all base values shown on it .... to the lack of base values on the 6e sheet in the CC book.  One shouldn't have to read multiple pages and all characteristic descriptions/definitions to find these...

It sounds like you really don't want to make the switch from 5E. You say you want a list of benefits to moving to CC, yet you won't even do the basic research of reading the rules--and I don't mean cover-to-cover. And then you claim the information you are looking for isn't there. This doesn't doesn't really seem to be about convincing the people you play with to make the change, but wanting us to convince you for some reason,

 

I'm sure others will keep plugging away at this, but if you can't explain why you want to make the move, it's not worth my time.

 

If you take nothing else away from this, know that it's OK to stick with 5E. If you don't like the rules in CC (although I recommend reading them before deciding), or you just don't like the format, no one here is going to force you to make the switch. And no one here can make you like something it seems clear you don't like. And it's not our job to.

[Surrealone]

Since you mentioned Champions Complete I'm guessing your group plays supers primarily; and there is a vast amount of published material available for 5E.

Powerful Heroic campaign, actually, but I bought CC because I didn't need all the fluff examples like 5er has.  I also own most of the 5e published material.

 

 

Page 227 - big full page chart listing Base Values, Costs, Effects, and Page # of full description.

THANK YOU.  You have no idea how much looking (as in flipping around in the usual places) in the CC book I did looking for base values.  That's part of why I was pretty disgusted by it -- because when you hunt for a half hour on something that should be up front and easy to find, it's disconcerting ... especially when the past locations (like the character sheet) omitted the very info you're looking for.

 

 

It sounds like you really don't want to make the switch from 5E. You say you want a list of benefits to moving to CC, yet you won't even do the basic research of reading the rules--and I don't mean cover-to-cover. And then you claim the information you are looking for isn't there. This doesn't doesn't really seem to be about convincing the people you play with to make the change, but wanting us to convince you for some reason,

 

I'm sure others will keep plugging away at this, but if you can't explain why you want to make the move, it's not worth my time.

 

If you take nothing else away from this, know that it's OK to stick with 5E. If you don't like the rules in CC (although I recommend reading them before deciding), or you just don't like the format, no one here is going to force you to make the switch. And no one here can make you like something it seems clear you don't like. And it's not our job to.

 

Incorrect read: I -want- to move to 6e, but I'm not going to read CC cover-to-cover unless the time to do so can be justified.  Learning 6e is absolutely NOT worth doing if the gaming group won't adopt it.  And the group will need to be sold on it.  Hence this thread: I need the list of selling points to provide to the group.

 

​Honestly, it's rather comical to me that a complete list of benefits is not spelled out somewhere in stickied fashion as a marketing/upselling tool for the new edition.  The 2-page conversion doc talks about differences but doesn't provide the rationale for the changes ... and the rationale is the important part to our group.

[ghost-angel]

There really isn't an 'upsell' to 6E; Because of the toolkit nature of the system, one change may be a selling point to one person and a non-starter to another; something seemingly small like the removal of Comeliness Characteristic was a hugely contentious point, and the spot where some people didn't want to even explore 6E further. Similar with a much larger change of decouple Figured Characteristics, to some people that was integral to what the system is, to others it was a hinderance to what the system is.

 

You will never get the full rational because Steve Long doesn't believe he should have to justify himself; but I can tell you, as I was there, that he did have reasons for every change, and the intent was to make the system more versatile and more customizable. The short answer: Changes were made to place more control in the hands of the Players.

 

The 2-page list of changes and differences is, in a sense, a marketing sheet: Here's what's changed, if you like these changes, you will like the new version. It's really that simple.

 

Now, what I can tell you is that in play those changes work well, the groups I play with are enjoying the overall changes, and find them as useable as ever. And there's not a lot of underlying shift in How the system works, so there wasn't a lot of adjustment to actually playing the game when we changed from 5th to 6th (no more so than when the same groups moved from 4th to 5th, for example. So if you made that change, it's about that level of adjustment).

 

If you want me to convince you to read and/or try 6th Ed; I can only say that all the changes makes the system more enjoyable for me to design with and game with. I find the shift in some of the rules like Blocking Ranges Attacks to be of common sense benefit. The removal of Figured Characteristics in favor of Primary & Secondary each bought exactly to whatever levels you find appropriate to be of infinite benefit, my bricks can still have campaign appropriate OCV, while not requiring the same DEX as the groups acrobatic DEX based character, and leave their DCV lower than other characters in favor of more defenses. I really like the switch of Movement to Meters because changing scale on maps is much easier than it was before, though it's hard to undo a couple decades of methodology, and occasionally we convert wrong.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I did NOT upgrade to 6th for somee very specific reasons:

 

1: The removal of Comliness. I like Comliness and even if I moved over to 6th, I would bring Comliness with me.

 

2: The decoupling of secondary characteristics. I didnt like that change. I understand it, but I actually like secondary characteristics being slaved to the primaries. It makes the primaries very important, which I like. The primary characteristics in 6e now seem slightly less important to me. I especially love the dynamic Dex had with OCV and DCV and enjoyed Aid to Dex enhancing Combat Value.

 

3: The change in the cost structure to skill levels. I prefer the traditional cost.

 

4: a few nitpicks with some of the powers. Change in cost. Small changes in mechanics. Some changes I see as positive....the change of Force Wall to Barrier to be better able to create physical walls etc. The addition of some new Advantages. But for the most part, I prefer the 5th edition way of doing things. Heck, with things like Regeneration, I still use the 4th edition version.

 

I could upgrade to 6e and just make the changes to the elements I have a problem with, but ultimately I would be back to playing 5er with a few elements of the 6e, which is what I'm doing now, so why change?

[Hyper-Man]

It all comes down to what is easiest for you and your group.

 

This reminds me a LOT of the various versions of the Axis & Allies board game that I have played over the years.  I have the played the original game as is, original game with 2 different 3rd party 'house rule variants'.  And I've played the new game that has a new board and incorporates some of the best features from the various 3rd party stuff.  I still have the original game but I prefer playing with the newest as it is the most satisfying version 'out of the box' for me now.

 

If you and your group have an extensive set of house rules bolted on top of 5e/5er HERO then there will be a lot to un-learn when learning the 6e version of the rules.  It may not be worth the time and effort to some.

 

On another related note, I have been doing a lot of research on purchasing my first semi-automatic handgun for personal defense.  I have browsed various forums on all the options (the the various brands, calibers, triggers, double action/single action hammer fired vs. striker fired, european vs american magazine release, etc...) and like this thread, many of those forums stress the importance of buyers considering what they are already familiar with (and consequently would have to unlearn if choosing a replacement that is too different from that familiarity).

 

The biggest argument in favor of new will always be new features, availability and cost.  With HERO it's the becoming the PDFs (not all 5e material is available in PDF).  With Axix & Allies it's pure cost (early versions of the game can be found on ebay at a premium). Gun manufacturers are a bit of an anomaly as a version of old guns like the M1911A1 are STILL in production somewhere in the world and variants with modern improvements are available too.

 

HM

[Scott Baker]

Powerful Heroic campaign, actually, but I bought CC because I didn't need all the fluff examples like 5er has.  I also own most of the 5e published material.

 

 

THANK YOU.  You have no idea how much looking (as in flipping around in the usual places) in the CC book I did looking for base values.  That's part of why I was pretty disgusted by it -- because when you hunt for a half hour on something that should be up front and easy to find, it's disconcerting ... especially when the past locations (like the character sheet) omitted the very info you're looking for.

 

 

 

Incorrect read: I -want- to move to 6e, but I'm not going to read CC cover-to-cover unless the time to do so can be justified.  Learning 6e is absolutely NOT worth doing if the gaming group won't adopt it.  And the group will need to be sold on it.  Hence this thread: I need the list of selling points to provide to the group.

 

​Honestly, it's rather comical to me that a complete list of benefits is not spelled out somewhere in stickied fashion as a marketing/upselling tool for the new edition.  The 2-page conversion doc talks about differences but doesn't provide the rationale for the changes ... and the rationale is the important part to our group.

You just want somebody else to do all the work for you. I stand by my post that you make claims without even reading the basics of the rules you say you want to use. If you want to use them, make an effort. 

 

No need to respond as I won't see it.

[Lucius]

Regeneration is back in 6th edition.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it seems appropriate for that Power to Regenerate itself.

[Lord Liaden]

I did NOT upgrade to 6th for somee very specific reasons:

 

1: The removal of Comliness. I like Comliness and even if I moved over to 6th, I would bring Comliness with me.

 

2: The decoupling of secondary characteristics. I didnt like that change. I understand it, but I actually like secondary characteristics being slaved to the primaries. It makes the primaries very important, which I like. The primary characteristics in 6e now seem slightly less important to me. I especially love the dynamic Dex had with OCV and DCV and enjoyed Aid to Dex enhancing Combat Value.

 

3: The change in the cost structure to skill levels. I prefer the traditional cost.

 

4: a few nitpicks with some of the powers. Change in cost. Small changes in mechanics. Some changes I see as positive....the change of Force Wall to Barrier to be better able to create physical walls etc. The addition of some new Advantages. But for the most part, I prefer the 5th edition way of doing things. Heck, with things like Regeneration, I still use the 4th edition version.

 

I could upgrade to 6e and just make the changes to the elements I have a problem with, but ultimately I would be back to playing 5er with a few elements of the 6e, which is what I'm doing now, so why change?

 

I find it significant that your description of your reasons for sticking with Fifth uses the terms "like," "love," "enjoy," and "prefer." Not once does any variation of "better" come into it. IMO that's usually where the camps in favor of Fifth or Sixth (or fourth) divide; on what version people like/enjoy/prefer to use. And that's going to vary greatly from person to person.

[bigdamnhero]

I think the tldr for 6ed goes something like: "Incremental improvements that allow for more flexibility in character creation, and isn't that what attracted most of us to Hero in the first place?"

 

Most of my favorite changes have already been mentioned, but here are a few comments:

• Decoupling figured characteristics: when I go back and look at old 5ed characters, it’s striking to me how homogeneous they all seem in comparison to my 6ed characters. And if you prefer figured stats, it’s trivially easy to write a house rule that, say, you must buy END equal to at least 2xCON. But going the reverse route generally gets more fiddly, requiring the purchase of Limited Characteristics and so forth.
• VPPs: I love decoupling the Pool from the Control cost; now you can have a lot of RP worth of low-AP powers, or vice-versa.
• Changing COM to Striking Appearance: I confess I didn’t see the point of this at first, but I can definitely say the latter gets used a lot more than COM ever did.
• The switch from hexes to meters was a bit of an adjustment for us old-timers, but in addition to allowing for a more variable scale, it's also *much* easier for newbies to grasp.
• Powers: A lot of the things they cleaned up were things I never noticed how clunky they were until I saw the fix: pulling Barriers out of Entangle for example. I also think a lot of them are better balanced now: making Drain ranged by default for example.  
• Allowing one energy blaster to block another energy blaster’s ranged attack by default is so genre (for many genres anyway) that it’s hard in hindsight to see how/why we ever did it differently.

As long as you have a hard copy of Champions Complete your players could also get a hard copy of the HERO System Basic Rulebook for ~$20 from DrivethruRPG.com.

Eh, not a fan. Given all the stuff they intentionally left out of the Basic book, I can't recommend it to anyone. Spend the extra $10 and get one of the Completes.

 

From my perspective there's irony in something called 'Champions Complete' ... being incomplete (compared to previous versions).

They're "complete" in the sense that you have all the rules you need to play under one reasonably-sized cover. If you're disappointed that they couldn't fit all 600-pages of 5ER in under 250 pages while still covering the material previously contained in the stand-alone Champions or Fantasy Hero genre books, well...I can't help you with that.

[bigdamnhero]

It isn't hard to convert most 6E materials to 5E. While the pace of that new stuff coming out is, frankly, pretty sluggish. Since you mentioned Champions Complete I'm guessing your group plays supers primarily; and there is a vast amount of published material available for 5E. You can even buy it from this website's online store for half its original cover price.

It seems to me that it's significantly easier to convert 5ed (and previous) material to 6ed than the other way around. Looking at some of the examples in my previous post: changing a 5ed VPP to 6ed is trivial, but changing a 6ed VPP to 5ed requires more work as you have to kludge a way to decouple the Pool and Control costs. Similarly, the fact that your 5ed character has the same OCVs and DCVs doesn't cause any problems for converting to 6ed; but converting a 6ed character with different OCV and DCV to 5ed requires tacking on Limited Characteristics or Limited Skill Levels or the like. All certainly doable, but requires some doing.

 

But then, I've spent more time converting old characters to 6ed than I have the reverse, so that may just be my impression? I do agree we're talking about 90+% compatibility either way.

[bigdamnhero]

I forgot my favorite new Advantage: Attack Vs Alternate Defense! It combines several old Advantages into a common framework and makes it easy to create and balance different, creative attacks. As with most 6ed changes, it's not that you couldn't make an attack "Works vs Power Def instead of ED" under 5ed; 6ed AVAD just makes the process simpler and more consistent.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Very, very little changed in terms of actual play, but builds shifted slightly.  things like Damage Over Time, Attack vs Alternate Defense, the change in how Area Effects are bought all are very good and should be put into every game, no matter what version you use (Frankenhero it like Liaden says).  The change to Power Pools solves some major annoyances for me in how they worked (you couldn't build some concepts at all) as well.  Then there are little shifts like the change to Transform, the clarity for how Change Environment works, etc.

 

Some things that I really don't care for are the loss of Comeliness, the change of missile deflection to being just something anyone can do, and the insistence that Instant Change is a rules-bending version of Transform instead of its own, obvious power.  I know its a "unitasker" but if everyone buys the same power the same way every time... its a missing power.  The loss of Suppress (the replacement doesn't work exactly the same way and thus some conceptual builds disappeared), and the deletion of Transfer (ugly, huge block o' text replacement) were problematic to me as well.  I really did not like the removal of figured characteristics, and it didn't add any flexibility to builds, it just made them more obvious.  The only real benefit was to fix costs on some characteristics, but some are really too cheap now (Endurance, for example, and recovery have become so cheap now they just are meaningless and many GMs don't even bother keeping track).

 

I really liked being able to build entangle-based barriers, because they were fire-and-forget which made for some very handy, interesting builds.  Now its either a huge block o'text barrier or a weird transform.

 

For me, streamlining builds is better than making them more generic.  Some powers were pointless (gliding, swinging) but others worked well and saved time.  Its the same philosophy as talents; you can technically build talents by hand and not have them in a list, but its a heck of a lot easier to use them pre-built and not go through the trouble every time.

 

Overall its a bit of a push, as ghost-angel notes.  There are some great aspects, some poor ones, and overall its pretty well the same game.

[TheDarkness]

Very, very little changed in terms of actual play, but builds shifted slightly.  things like Damage Over Time, Attack vs Alternate Defense, the change in how Area Effects are bought all are very good and should be put into every game, no matter what version you use (Frankenhero it like Liaden says).  The change to Power Pools solves some major annoyances for me in how they worked (you couldn't build some concepts at all) as well.  Then there are little shifts like the change to Transform, the clarity for how Change Environment works, etc.

 

Some things that I really don't care for are the loss of Comeliness, the change of missile deflection to being just something anyone can do, and the insistence that Instant Change is a rules-bending version of Transform instead of its own, obvious power.  I know its a "unitasker" but if everyone buys the same power the same way every time... its a missing power.  The loss of Suppress (the replacement doesn't work exactly the same way and thus some conceptual builds disappeared), and the deletion of Transfer (ugly, huge block o' text replacement) were problematic to me as well.  I really did not like the removal of figured characteristics, and it didn't add any flexibility to builds, it just made them more obvious.  The only real benefit was to fix costs on some characteristics, but some are really too cheap now (Endurance, for example, and recovery have become so cheap now they just are meaningless and many GMs don't even bother keeping track).

 

I really liked being able to build entangle-based barriers, because they were fire-and-forget which made for some very handy, interesting builds.  Now its either a huge block o'text barrier or a weird transform.

 

For me, streamlining builds is better than making them more generic.  Some powers were pointless (gliding, swinging) but others worked well and saved time.  Its the same philosophy as talents; you can technically build talents by hand and not have them in a list, but its a heck of a lot easier to use them pre-built and not go through the trouble every time.

 

Overall its a bit of a push, as ghost-angel notes.  There are some great aspects, some poor ones, and overall its pretty well the same game.

What did suppress do? I can't for the life of me remember.(Just started playing Champions again after many years).

[Hyper-Man]

Suppress was like a Drain that never faded but Costs END to Maintain.

Succor was the Aid equivalent.

[Lucius]

Very, very little changed in terms of actual play, but builds shifted slightly.  things like Damage Over Time, Attack vs Alternate Defense, the change in how Area Effects are bought all are very good and should be put into every game, no matter what version you use (Frankenhero it like Liaden says).  The change to Power Pools solves some major annoyances for me in how they worked (you couldn't build some concepts at all) as well.  Then there are little shifts like the change to Transform, the clarity for how Change Environment works, etc.

 

Some things that I really don't care for are the loss of Comeliness, the change of missile deflection to being just something anyone can do, and the insistence that Instant Change is a rules-bending version of Transform instead of its own, obvious power.  I know its a "unitasker" but if everyone buys the same power the same way every time... its a missing power.  The loss of Suppress (the replacement doesn't work exactly the same way and thus some conceptual builds disappeared), and the deletion of Transfer (ugly, huge block o' text replacement) were problematic to me as well.  I really did not like the removal of figured characteristics, and it didn't add any flexibility to builds, it just made them more obvious.  The only real benefit was to fix costs on some characteristics, but some are really too cheap now (Endurance, for example, and recovery have become so cheap now they just are meaningless and many GMs don't even bother keeping track).

 

I really liked being able to build entangle-based barriers, because they were fire-and-forget which made for some very handy, interesting builds.  Now its either a huge block o'text barrier or a weird transform.

 

For me, streamlining builds is better than making them more generic.  Some powers were pointless (gliding, swinging) but others worked well and saved time.  Its the same philosophy as talents; you can technically build talents by hand and not have them in a list, but its a heck of a lot easier to use them pre-built and not go through the trouble every time.

 

Overall its a bit of a push, as ghost-angel notes.  There are some great aspects, some poor ones, and overall its pretty well the same game.

The thing is, from my point of view, Instant Change was one of those "pointless" Powers. I'm sure there are people to whom it is useful to have Gliding separate from Flight, or convenient to have Armor distinct from Force Field. To paraphrase Robert Pirsig, you can slice it in a way that's logical to you, but that doesn't mean other ways of slicing it aren't just as logical.

 

I think you're right that "overall it's....the same game." To address the original question, if a group is using 5th edition and it's working for them, maybe the new edition isn't different ENOUGH to justify the change. I think there are some definite improvements and I'd summarize the best case for making the change this way:

 

There is nothing I can think of (unless I'm missing something) that you can do under 5th edition that is not also possible in 6th. But the reverse is not true; there are things you can do in 6th edition that won't work in 5th.

 

I'd summarize the second best case for making the change as:

 

Since the change, the perennial arguments about Killing Attacks we used to see in the forums almost completely dried up. And that's just the most prominent example of problematic issues that were corrected.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary recalls that at the last GenCon I went to there was someone still using FIRST edition - he thought it was perfect already and didn't even care to look at anything that came later.

[Ninja-Bear]

For what its worth here is what my group is doing for Fantasy Hero. I'm using Fifth ed rev. and parts of Fantasy Hero for 4th ed. and converting the classic Keep on the Borderland module. My brother got bit by the GMing bug so he went out and bought Fantasy Hero Complete which when he runs will use.

[bigdamnhero]

There is nothing I can think of (unless I'm missing something) that you can do under 5th edition that is not also possible in 6th. But the reverse is not true; there are things you can do in 6th edition that won't work in 5th.

Well, I can't think of anything in 6ed that you *can't* do in 5ed - they'll just take a *lot* more fiddling around and wind up with more complex character builds.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, from my point of view, Instant Change was one of those "pointless" Powers.

 

I got a little tired of building Instant Change from Transform over and over doing conversions of characters.  Dozens of times.  Its used a lot more than you seem to understand.

[bigdamnhero]

But Instant Change hasn't been it's own Power since 4ed. 5ed was the one that rolled it into Transform (see 5er p238), not 6ed.

 

Personally I always thought thought Instant Change was common enough to perhaps warrant inclusion as a standard Talent, but not important enough or distinct enough to warrant its own Power.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The thing is, from my point of view, Instant Change was one of those "pointless" Powers.

 

I got a little tired of building Instant Change from Transform over and over doing conversions of characters. Dozens of times. Its used a lot more than you seem to understand.

 

Exactly. Instant Change was always its own power for convenience sake. All it does is change your appearance in order to protect a secret identity. That shouldnt be worth more than 5 points, nor should it be more complex than that.

[ghost-angel]

Instant Change was, for me, always one of those things that is part of the Special Effects of the genre; building at all (standalone or as Transform) was counter intuitive.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Doing it as a handwave thing probably is fine, but it does seem worth some points to be able to zap into your costume immediately while Platinum Man has to change into his armor over a turn.