Initiative, SPD and Shadowrun 5E initiative

[Christopher]

I played Shadowrun 4E before being introduced to Hero System. As such the similarities between SR4E Initiative/Initiative Passes and Heros Initiative/SPD mechanic seemed very obvious to me.

Now Shadowrun 5th Edition was out for 3+ years and I recently got my hands on a copy.. As a whole it is mostly a refinement of 4th Edition. Signiticantly less then the difference between Hero 5E and 6E.

 

One of the few things they did change was the initiative system and I think for people working on alternative/more streamlined Initiative Systems for HERO, this might be worth a look. Luckily those rules are mostly avalible without buying the book, in the Quick Starter rules starting page 7:

http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/E-CAT27QSR_SR5-Quick-Start-Rules.pdf

 

In both versions a combat turn takes 3 seconds (or 1/4 of a hero combat turn).

 

4E Initiative:

People Roll thier Initiative Dice, and get [initiative Passes] actions per turn, from highest to lowest. How people with few/many turns are mixed reminds a lot of how SPD works in hero.

Initiative Passes can only be granted from Special Combat Regions (Neural Link into Matrix, Astral Projection), Cyberware and Magic. Everyone has 1-4 passes in one Combat Turn, with 1 being the default. You could also abort to a defensive action similar to how you can in Hero, using your next action to defend.

The two sources of Initiative Passes (together with allowing 2 Attack actions per pass) led to way too much difference between the 4-pass and 1 pass characters. Also randomness only affected the order of passes, not the number of passes.

It is also only slightly less clunky then RAW Hero SPD+abort mechanics (becaue it has smaler turns).

 

5E Initiative:

Initiative is given as [Number based on stats]+[1-5]D6. What granted plain extra passes in 4E, now gives +1D6 in 5E (you start with +1D6; you can not get over 5D6).

Once initiative score is rolled, the initiative passes happen from the highest to lowest number. After everyone had thier action all Initiative Scores get lowered by 10. Anyone that is still above 0 get's another pass. Rinse, repeat. When nobody has a pass left, the Combat Turn ends. New Initiative is rolled for the next turn.

 

Now additionally they also changed how Defensive Actions works:
- You still get a passive Reaction+Intuition Roll to counter the enemies Attack Roll. This hapens always, except if you are suprised.

- You can also opt to defend better against this one attack by taking a "Defense" action. This lowers your initiative by 5 points, but allows you to add your Willpower* to that one defense roll.

- you can also opt to go on full defense. This allows you to add your Willpower* to all defense tests for the rest of the combat turn, but also lowers iniative by 10 (the equivalent to 4E Defense or Hero Abort to defense).

- dropping your initiative this way can mean you don't get anther initiative pass this combat turn (because you dropped to 0 or below), but you must at least have some initiative left to use it at all.

- D&D style "Attacks of Opportunity" are also handeled via a Initiative Penalty.

 

*Or other applicable defense stat. Melee Defense adds the Melee Skill instead of Willpower for example. Also each defense is tied to the kind of attack (Melee, Ranged) you defend against, similar to how hero block is vs ranged or melee only.

 

 

Advantages of the System over SR 4E/Hero approaches:

- everyone get's to act at least once before anyone get's a second initiative pass (Hero has to artificially start combat on Segment 12 for that effect)

- everyone (with initiative 5+1d6 or more) has at least some chance on a second pass. At a certain point (9+1d6) a second pass is guaranteed. while a 3rd can be made highly propable at least. 4 reliable is kinda hard to reach.

- the top number of passes is at 5 (20+5d6 on a max roll), but that is extremely unlikely to reach. 4 is a more feasible upper limit. The Bell curve works to make average number of passes more likely.

- those two factors mean that 4 passes are not as exceptional anymore: Becaue you only get to act twice, not 4 times as much as the average joe can act. And because actually getting 4 passes is no longer guaranteed.

- it is perhaps one of the best uses of Randomness I have seen. The kind of randomness that increases the number of meaningfull decisions for everyone involved, without being too arbitrary

- it is quite easy to track "aborted to defensive action", without any need for a complex table with all the SPD/initiative passes left. You just substract from the score. Aborting to defense costs you actions on the end of a combat turn (plus delaying your action that pass maybe), rather then the next you would take.

- there is no need to track if the character already aborted to a defensive action; as long as they got initiative left, they can just abort again

- people with a lot of passes tend to get them all at the end of the turn. Combat Turn complexity decreases the more passes have been used up already (rather then keeping constant as in Hero/SR4)

- there is room for weapons/attacks to directly affect the initiative score (Shake Up Maneuver, Taser/Lightning Attacks)

- it is highly automateable/computer friendly. So much so I am thinking it might have been made by a programmer

[DasBroot]

I've played Shadowrun since 1st Edition and it's one of those RPGs where I always feel the game has improved every edition.

 

The round robin Initiative as opposed to the top down initiative (which let someone with wired reflexes 3 kill three or four people before they got to retaliate and lead to a lot of bored mages sitting around waiting for their turn) was a great change.  Also everyone and their dog stopped buying wired reflexes and/or Improved initiative spells to stay relevant.  Diversity in cybernetics and spell focus / talisman was nice.

 

I wouldn't mind something similar done for Hero - so that speed 6 doesn't act so many more times than speed 2 or 3 - but have no idea how it could work.  Speed is very expensive for a reason.

[Christopher]

I wouldn't mind something similar done for Hero - so that speed 6 doesn't act so many more times than speed 2 or 3 - but have no idea how it could work.  Speed is very expensive for a reason.

 

Let's go over the math a little:

Hero and SR Turns are somewhat comparable. From the time (3 seconds vs 12), I would say SR is about 4 times more granular.

If it is about actual action density I would say 3 SR turns equate 1 Hero Turn in superheroic levels. That puts "people with 4 passes" on par with a SPD 12 hero character (just that 4 passses was accidently a lot more interesting in SR4 then SPD 12 in Hero).

 

We could jsut try to copy SR's system (1-4 phase turns) 1:1 and simply add Heroes Endurance+Stun recovery every 2-3 Combat Turns. I tend towards 2, because the first recovery is hardcoded to happen after the first phase in Hero. We could also just make Recovery more granular.

 

The similarities are a lot, I think:

One SR Initiative Pass is about equal to one Hero Phase (2 half or one complex action plus free actions*)

Indirect Combat Spells work the same as normal attacks (in hero and SR alike)

both have a abort/interrupt system.

SR4E Initiative + Hero 5E/6E Initiative/SPD are almost the same already

SR ranged weapons use Hero charges, while Melee Weapons use 0-end

SR Spell Drain seems like a equivalent of "Burning STUN instead of END". Just randomised rather then tracking of values.

 

*The limitation on "one free action per turn" is similar to heroes "can't turn a power on and off in the same turn, even if 0-phase action

[Tasha]

Makes me wonder if the real fix would be to create a mirror of the current Speed Chart. With old Seg 12 becoming Seg 1, seg 11 becoming seg 2 etc. Post Seg 12 is still a recovery. It does make for a more harsh turn, as the bad guys could alpha strike the heroes in Seg 1 and leave most of the team out for the rest of the turn.

 

Another idea might be to halve the number of segments in a turn (either by saying each segment is now 2 seconds or by leaving it 1 sec/segment). Spd's over 6 would be handled by having segments where the high spd person takes 2 actions.

[NuSoardGraphite]

There is a very simple way of doing it. Characters go in order of their Dex and everyone goes in order....thats your first action. Then the next actions are resolved. Then the next. When your character has gone a number of times equal to ones speed, they are done for the turn. Characters who have more actions get to continue going. Characters can of course hold their phase to interrupt a slower character later or mount a defense.

 

Me personally, I like the way actions break down in Hero. They are spread out evenly and only if there is a huge disparate will a character be left out in the cold a long time. In Heroic level games where most characters fall between speed 2 and 4, there is usually little issue with this.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Oops

[Mister E]

There are 10 types of Shadowrunners in the future:

 

1) those who understand binary

 

10) & those who don't.

[Hyper-Man]

A Heroic PC built in 6e with a few extra CSL's, Rapid Attack (and possibly also Rapid Autofire) can take advantage of the Multiple Attack* maneuver to get MANY more attacks per TURN than what a 3 or 4 SPD would otherwise normally suggest is possible.

 

*Multiple Attack is the 6e combination of 5e's Sweep & Rapid Fire.

[Sean Waters]

I'm not sure that I prefer the Shadowrun system.  You can still get a character with one action (initiative pass) and another with several.  The difference is that actions are front loaded with extras taking place after.  Having several actions in a row can be a real advantage and does not happen much in Hero.

 

If you want variable speeds, get everyone to buy SPD1 and then buy more SPD with activation rolls, and roll each point of SPD individually.  That way you have at least one action per turn and up to your SPD with the chances of extra actions based on the level of your activation roll.  Re-roll every PS12 so you know what SPD you are in advance or roll every time a phase comes up (you need to allocate specific activations to specific phases in advance).  I'd prefer PS12.

 

That is not strictly RAW, but I've done it as an experiment and it works.  More trouble than it is worth in my opinion, but it works.

 

Variable SPD in Hero adds a lot more uncertainty to the mix, but everyone gets at least one action per turn and some might prefer that chaos.

[Christopher]

A Heroic PC built in 6e with a few extra CSL's, Rapid Attack (and possibly also Rapid Autofire) can take advantage of the Multiple Attack* maneuver to get MANY more attacks per TURN than what a 3 or 4 SPD would otherwise normally suggest is possible.

 

*Multiple Attack is the 6e combination of 5e's Sweep & Rapid Fire.

That sounds like an issue with Multiple Attack, not with the SPD mechanic. And it persist regardless of wich SPD mechanic you are using.

Interestingly the rule "Penalty Skill Levels can not be taken for Maneuvers" is exactly there to prevent these kind of issues.

If you allow the player to take relevant SL instead, that is your own decision as GM and you are responsible for any problems that result from it.

 

 

I'm not sure that I prefer the Shadowrun system.  You can still get a character with one action (initiative pass) and another with several.  The difference is that actions are front loaded with extras taking place after.  Having several actions in a row can be a real advantage and does not happen much in Hero.

 

If you want variable speeds, get everyone to buy SPD1 and then buy more SPD with activation rolls, and roll each point of SPD individually.  That way you have at least one action per turn and up to your SPD with the chances of extra actions based on the level of your activation roll.  Re-roll every PS12 so you know what SPD you are in advance or roll every time a phase comes up (you need to allocate specific activations to specific phases in advance).  I'd prefer PS12.

 

That is not strictly RAW, but I've done it as an experiment and it works.  More trouble than it is worth in my opinion, but it works.

 

Variable SPD in Hero adds a lot more uncertainty to the mix, but everyone gets at least one action per turn and some might prefer that chaos.

Interesting Idea on those activation rolls. I kept wondering how we could add the randomness factor into the calculation. The Shadowrun approach is well designed, aiming for a lot of dice (and thus a small delta of randomness).

 

The idea was to make the Resolution Simpler. Having tailing extra turns, having abort just cost those tailing turns.

Perhaps the core issue is not even SPD, but actually how long each turn is?

Having the clear cut every 1-4 actions helps Shadowrun to keep initiatve simple. After that the slate is wiped clean (everyone just rolls initiative again). Nothing carries over.

 

In Hero in turn stuff can easily "carry over". You can abort to your first action in the next turn. The defensive bonus last until your next sheduled action even if that is in another turn. Hero combat is a unbroken sequence, that might be the issue with the complexity. There is never such a clear cut, not even after the Combat turn ended.

[Sean Waters]

Most Heroic games only have a SPD range of 2 to 4 anyway, and even most Superheroic games rarely exceed SPD 6.

 

The biggest issue about SPD is not necessarily obvious: it is all about the Recovery.  I've played a superheroic game where we kept SPD in the human range and the problem became putting anyone down.  Recoveries came round so quickly combats took much longer.  The same thing applies to END use.

 

I quite like the idea that combat time is a continuous process, but you can easily rule that all un-taken actions are lost at PS12 as are all manoeuvre bonuses and penalties (although I would allow skill bonuses to stay until re-set).  You could also rule that you can not hold actions.  Abort, yes, hold, no.  That could change the dynamic a bit, but maybe in a good way.  It would stop high speed characters always being able to dodge.

 

The other thing I like about Hero's SPD chart is that even quite fast characters do not usually get two actions in a row.  I see that as a good thing, but it would be easy to do away with the chart and just take Action 1 (all, in order of DEX) then Action 2 (smoke 'em if you've got 'em) and so on.  I think that makes it less tactical, and practically removes the Abort mechanism, and also means that manoeuvres like Haymaker become much move dangerous.  Still, it would speed up combat, and that could be a good thing.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Most Heroic games only have a SPD range of 2 to 4 anyway, and even most Superheroic games rarely exceed SPD 6.

 

The biggest issue about SPD is not necessarily obvious: it is all about the Recovery. I've played a superheroic game where we kept SPD in the human range and the problem became putting anyone down. Recoveries came round so quickly combats took much longer. The same thing applies to END use.

 

I quite like the idea that combat time is a continuous process, but you can easily rule that all un-taken actions are lost at PS12 as are all manoeuvre bonuses and penalties (although I would allow skill bonuses to stay until re-set). You could also rule that you can not hold actions. Abort, yes, hold, no. That could change the dynamic a bit, but maybe in a good way. It would stop high speed characters always being able to dodge.

 

The other thing I like about Hero's SPD chart is that even quite fast characters do not usually get two actions in a row. I see that as a good thing, but it would be easy to do away with the chart and just take Action 1 (all, in order of DEX) then Action 2 (smoke 'em if you've got 'em) and so on. I think that makes it less tactical, and practically removes the Abort mechanism, and also means that manoeuvres like Haymaker become much move dangerous. Still, it would speed up combat, and that could be a good thing.

I agree. I like a lot of these elements of the speed chart as well. There has to be a huge disparate difference in combatants speed scores before anyone gets more than 2 actions in a row before their opponent can act.

 

Since I play mostly Heroic level games, PCs speed scores are usually 3 or 4, so no one is sitting on the sidelines. The the majaority of foes they face will be speeds 2 and 3, with 4 being uncommon and anything above that being rare. So I have few issues with Speed in my games.

[Markdoc]

I really loved the speed chart when I first came to Hero, but gradually fell out of love with it for two reasons. First off, it slowed combat, especially when you had people aborting, holding actions and blocking (none of them particularly unusual things) and then losing track of when they had acted/should act. I ended up noting down who had done what, and that slowed things even more. I am just absolutely not a fan of "one big combat and you're done for the evening's play". I like combat to fast and furious. And fast, did I mention that?

 

The second thing that bugged me is that the predictable nature of the SPD chart made it very easy for cunning players to game the system.

 

At the same time, I really like the SPD characteristic (the idea that a faster character gets more actions) and the abort/hold mechanism which solves a lot of problems encountered in other games, so I was not prepared to dump those.

 

In the end, I went for functional over elegant. I simply roll a dice to determine what phase it is. If your SPD is equal to the number or higher, you get to act, in DEX order.This can be a d6 or a d8 or a D12 - the only requirement is that it can generate numbers higher than the highest SPD in the fight, so that here are "empty" phases for people with held actions to exploit, when nobody is currently acting. When I roll a 1, everybody gets an action and then there's the "post 12" recovery. It's fast, works very well, and generates an action economy similar to, but less predictable than, the current SPD chart.

 

Another possibility that I played with (but eventually discarded) is simply to give everyone a number of chips equal to their SPD. In this mechanism, I call each round and say "who's in?" Everyone who wants to take an action puts a chip in the pot, and then we run it by DEX. If you want to abort, you can do so by throwing a chip in the pot at that point. When everyone is out of chips, you do a "post-12" recovery and then deal out chips again. This is even faster and more intuitive than rolling a die (and also opens the possibility of introducing a SPD-gamble system), but generates an action economy far different from that you get off the SPD chart or a D6, because it becomes essentially possible to hold multiple actions.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

I really loved the speed chart when I first came to Hero, but gradually fell out of love with it for two reasons. First off, it slowed combat, especially when you had people aborting, holding actions and blocking (none of them particularly unusual things) and then losing track of when they had acted/should act. I ended up noting down who had done what, and that slowed things even more. I am just absolutely not a fan of "one big combat and you're done for the evening's play". I like combat to fast and furious. And fast, did I mention that?

 

The second thing that bugged me is that the predictable nature of the SPD chart made it very easy for cunning players to game the system.

And that is exactly what I like about the SR5 approach. SR4 had much the same issues as Hero SPD chart with aborting, holding, predictability and the like. And as far as I can tell they completely solved them all with SR5. They even had room to add D&D style attacks of opportunity into that system. I think I need to write down the system(s) a bit better to see the paralells.

[Markdoc]

I agree. I like a lot of these elements of the speed chart as well. There has to be a huge disparate difference in combatants speed scores before anyone gets more than 2 actions in a row before their opponent can act.

 

Actually it's not hard - the way the SPD chart is set up, at the lower end of the SPD range, it's relatively trivial to get two actions in a row when your opponent can't act as long as you have at least 1 point more SPD and 1 point more DEX, just by delaying your action. It's not even that hard to get 3 actions to your opponent's one. For example, a SPD4 guy with a 1 DEX point advantage vs a SPD 3 guy can delay his phase 6 action to 8 (without significant risk) and then go on 8, 9, and 12. If SPD 3 guy uses his action to react on 8, SPD4 guy gets phase  9 free and then goes first on 12. If SPD3 guy aborts on 9, then SPD4 guy gets 12 and 3 free instead.

 

Delay/act/act shenanigans used to set up a target by stunning, flashing or otherwise hindering them and then opening up the cano' whupass when they were at a disadvantage, while tactically savvy, got old pretty rapidly, because it was so predictable. There are ways that you can counter this, but I found the whole meta-approach to combat ("I'm going to delay this phase because I know there's a SPD hole approaching in the initiative") wearying fairly quickly - and of course, it just slowed combat even more. ;p

 

I don't mind at all a faster opponent being able to exploit his superior speed to get multiple attacks on an opponent who can't respond - that's not only realistic, but cinematic as well. But I do mind the fact that the system is so predictable that he can tell you at what point in the fight it will happen, a week before he actually meets his opponent.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

Those were/are the Initiative&combat turn rules for SR 4:

Comabt turns take about 3 seconds ingame time.

 

Initiative Score (equivalent to HERO dex) for a turn is the Initiative Atribute + (SR4 hits on [initiative Atribute]D6).

Character act in that order during each Initiative Pass
SR Wound Modifiers applies, allowing the value to change mid IP (but that will not result in another Action Phase).

A result of 0 or less (due to wounds) means no Action Phases that turn

 

Initiative Passes (equivalent Hero SPD):

Characters have between 1 and 4 IP's. Extra IP's are trailing rather then interleaved (like in Hero).

If a character has no Action Phase in an IP, he get's no free action.  He can still dodge and defend however

Increasing IP mid turn does NOT give you extra Action Phases that turn. Only next turn (similar to increasing HERO SPD)

Decreasing IP mid turn means you isntantly loose that Action Phase this turn.

 

Delay Action:

You can choose to act at a low Initiative Score that IP. You have to do so before you declare any actions and take it just after the enemy has declared his actions. You can choose to go after a characters Action Phase, if you could have gone before.

You can choose to go after the last players Action Phase that IP.

Initiative Score is not negatively affected by delaying. In all further IP's that Combat Turn the original score is used.

You can delay into your next IP or even next turn, but doing so will loose you the normal action that pass (kinda like in Hero).

 

Timed Items (grenades, mines):

They act at the characters current Initiative in the next IP that comes around

Timed items can also be set to go off after "X passes" or at the beginning/end of a Combat turn

 

Action Phase (equivalent Hero Phase):

Characters get 1 complex or 2 standart Actions per turn (full action, half action)

Characters also get 1 Free Action. They can delay the Free Action freely to be used later that IP. (Somwehre between 0 Phase and action that takes no time)

First you declare you actions. Then characters with delayed actions get to interevene. Then your actions are resolved.

 

Interception (D&D Attack of Opportunity):

Your free action can be used for this. That means you can only Intercept after your Action Phase that IP has already come.

 

Interrupt Actions (equivalent Hero Aborting):

Basically you take your turn early, but only for limited cases (like defense). You can abort to the first action next Turn if you have no more IP's left.

 

Defense (equivalent Hero DCV/DMCV):

Characters always get this roll, unless they are suprised

A cumulative penalty for every defense roll. Rests on next Action Phase (kind like the Hero Block penalty)

 

Full Defense (equivalent Hero Defensive Actions):

Doing this is a complex action. It can be taken as interrupt action (before you had acted that IP) or your delayed action can be used for it (as usualy for delayed actions).

On full Dodge the character adds thier Dodge Skill dice* to his Defensive Rolls, both ranged and Melee. This is kind like Heros dodge.

Full Parry adds the melee skill to melee defense a 2nd time. This is obviously like Heroes Block

Gymnastics Dodge: Declare if it works agaisnt Ranged or Melee. Add your Gymanstics to appropirate defense rolls.

 

Summary:

As you can see SR4 combat has many of the same ideas and complexities as Hero has.
You can abort to defense, use a delayed phase for defense and the like. You can even abort/Interrupt action to your next phase. They did manage to add Attacks of Opportunity for trying to pass/trying to leave melee (unlike hero).

Next up how SR5 does the same.

[Christopher]

These are teh SR5 rules for Combat Resolution:

Comabt turns take about 3 seconds gametime

 

Initiative Score (Hero DEX and SPD rolled into one):

You roll Initiative Atribute + 1-5d6. For every 10 you effectively get an extra pass. Everything that used to give more flat passes now gives +x dice instead.

A character can loose and gain Passes as his Initiative Score changes! For example activating an Implant that adds score and dice let's the dice be rolled instantly and added (together with the flat bonus) to the score.

 

Initiative Passes:

The combat is still split into IP's, but you no longer buy them directly.

Characters act in order of thier Initiative Score during a pass. At the end of the pass, substract 10 from everyones Initiative Score. Everyone that has 1 or more get's to act the next pass too. You can't use any if you are already at 0 or less.

There is no specific limit on number of passes, but the Initiative rolls possible limit it somewhat.

 

Delaying:

You can delay as usual.

Delaying past the Initiative Passes end incurse the usual -10 penalty.

Delaying into another IP also uses up that Passes normal action, but it does allow you to act first in that pass.

 

Timed items:

Same as SR4

 

Action Phase:

Same as SR4, but:

You can no longer actively take defensive actions (you don't have too).

Free actions can no logner be used as AoO (again not needed anymore).

 

Interrupt Action:

Using interrupt Actions drops your Initiative Score (usually by -5 or -10). You can't use this if you are suprised.
This includes defensive actions and "Attacks of Opportunity". The rules are a bit unclear, but it appears that there are interrupt actiosn that can bring you into negative Score (single Defense) and ones where you can not (Full defense, intercept). In either case you can't use any at IS 0 or loss.

Using an interrupt action does not cost the next action (unless it drops your score to 0 or less at wich point it does indirectly). However it might cost trailing actions (depending how much you loose). It might also delay when you get to act that IP and will affect when you get to act all furhther IP's.

 

For -5 Initiative you can do one  of the following:

Block: Add Unarmed combat skill to defense test vs one Attack
Dodge: Add Gymnastics to a defense test vs one Attack

Hit the Dirt: Fall Prone if you got no Free action left to do this.

Intercept: Make an Attack of Opportunity

Parry: Like Block, with Weapons

 

For -10 Initiatve you can go on Full Defense.

You add Willpwoer to all defense tests for the rest of the Combat Turn. This bonus is cumulative with the other interrupt actions.

It is especially worthwhile for Characters with high Will (mages, deckers, riggers, technomancers). But it also makes will for general combatants interesting.

 

 

Summary:

They solved the issue of adding SPD mid combat.

They made a more detailed version of D&D Attacks of Opportunity

The eliminated the need to track wich phase you "aborted too", while also making defense a lot more granular.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Actually it's not hard - the way the SPD chart is set up, at the lower end of the SPD range, it's relatively trivial to get two actions in a row when your opponent can't act as long as you have at least 1 point more SPD and 1 point more DEX, just by delaying your action. It's not even that hard to get 3 actions to your opponent's one. For example, a SPD4 guy with a 1 DEX point advantage vs a SPD 3 guy can delay his phase 6 action to 8 (without significant risk) and then go on 8, 9, and 12. If SPD 3 guy uses his action to react on 8, SPD4 guy gets phase 9 free and then goes first on 12. If SPD3 guy aborts on 9, then SPD4 guy gets 12 and 3 free instead.

 

Delay/act/act shenanigans used to set up a target by stunning, flashing or otherwise hindering them and then opening up the cano' whupass when they were at a disadvantage, while tactically savvy, got old pretty rapidly, because it was so predictable. There are ways that you can counter this, but I found the whole meta-approach to combat ("I'm going to delay this phase because I know there's a SPD hole approaching in the initiative") wearying fairly quickly - and of course, it just slowed combat even more. ;p

 

I don't mind at all a faster opponent being able to exploit his superior speed to get multiple attacks on an opponent who can't respond - that's not only realistic, but cinematic as well. But I do mind the fact that the system is so predictable that he can tell you at what point in the fight it will happen, a week before he actually meets his opponent.

 

cheers, Mark

Please note that I saide more than 2 actions in a row.

 

The predictability of the Speed Chart is its only flaw IMO and a minor one at that.

[Christopher]

Please note that I saide more than 2 actions in a row.

 

The predictability of the Speed Chart is its only flaw IMO and a minor one at that.

Interestingly SR5 avoids that in it's own way, by having turns a lot shorter.

I sugested shortening hero turns to 1/4 too 1/3 of thier current lenght. At the very least, we should half thier lenghts to 6 second/phases per turn tops.

The shorter the turn, the less "tralining actions in a row" can happen. If a Hero turn was only 3-4 Segments long, more then 2 actions in a row a pretty damn hard to archieve. Especially if you needed a few of those passes for Dodge.

 

The shorter the turn, the more the abort mechanic can be simplified. Full Defense bonuses last the whole remaining turn, but quit at the end of the turn.

[Doc Democracy]

The SPD chart was cutting edge when it was introduced,  I think I said this in another thread recently, but, in a world where gaming has become more sophisticated in both RPGs and boardgames we tend to expect more elegance.  I think it is time someone with a really good background in game mechanics had a good look at the SPD chart and brought it into the 21st century...

 

In fact, while HERO has been through quite a few editions, the actual backbone of the game system has remained almost entirely unchanged.  All the thought and development has gone into the powers and skills and other bits and pieces.  Maybe there is an argument for the next edition to radically think about the core gameplay of the system.

[Nolgroth]

Actually, Hero hasn't changed much because it hasn't really needed to.  Wait. Stop. Disclaimer: This is all my own opinion. There is no fact in this message or if there is fact, it is entirely coincidental and unintended.  Okay. Back to the message.

 

There are a few bits that I would change about Hero, but those are mostly build rules and the like. Core-wise, I would only change a couple of things, namely Skill Roll resolution to the variant listed in the 6E1 book where Skill Rolls and Combat Rolls use the exact mechanic. Why that wasn't a 6E change in the first place, I will never understand. The other is to condense the Characteristics to their value/5 (10 becomes 2, 20 becomes 4, etc.). This just makes the calculations for Characteristic and Skill rolls easier to reference and there is no longer a need/place for break points. Not sure why, as there is no logical reason, but the 1/2 die to Normal damage at the break points for Strength perturbs me greatly. As to the rest of the core gameplay mechanics, I think they work just fine.

 

There are a lot of build things that I would tinker with. I think most people are like that.

 

The Speed Chart I would not mess with. Too many other mechanics revolve around it. I find it personally ironic that I believe this, as there was a time that I thought a random initiative system would be better. If I were to tinker with the Speed Chart, I would use it like Shadowrun 4 did with "passes." Each character rolls 1d6 and adds Dex/5 (or just Dex in my adjusted view above). From there, each point of Speed represents a Pass. Characters go in order from highest to lowest on Pass 1. Any characters with a Speed of 2 (or higher) get additional passes.

 

Honestly, the starting at Phase 12 thing accomplishes much of the same effect; everybody gets to go in the first combat Phase and then initiative sorts itself out from there. Between powers and maneuvers that take longer than a Phase, holding actions, getting Stunned (and subsequently recovering from being stunned), Aids to Speed, Drains from Speed, etc. there is enough wiggle room to make combat fairly dynamic. The trick is getting everybody at the table to think beyond the Ben Stein voice: "Phase 1. Anybody go on Phase 1? Anybody? Anybody? Phase 2? Phase 2? Anybody?" Once the combat is running with all the bells and whistles, it can become something more than a repetitive exercise in calling out DMV waiting numbers.

 

Again, just my opinion.

[Christopher]

The SPD chart was cutting edge when it was introduced,  I think I said this in another thread recently, but, in a world where gaming has become more sophisticated in both RPGs and boardgames we tend to expect more elegance.  I think it is time someone with a really good background in game mechanics had a good look at the SPD chart and brought it into the 21st century...

 

In fact, while HERO has been through quite a few editions, the actual backbone of the game system has remained almost entirely unchanged.  All the thought and development has gone into the powers and skills and other bits and pieces.  Maybe there is an argument for the next edition to radically think about the core gameplay of the system.

"Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication." - unknown.

 

Maybe it helps if I write down my ideas?

SPD and REC:

SPD and REC price is increased by 3/existing values are cut by factor 3 (we can later consider more granular approach).

SPD cap is accordingly set to 4. Default SPD is set to 1.

 

Truns, Segments, Phases, Defense:

Turns take 4 seconds (rather then 12), split into 4 segments.

Stuff measured "Turns" has the duration Trippeled (due to Shorter Turns). Stuff with duration in Phases or Segments is unaffected.

You can act (have Phases) on SPD number of those Segments. Phases are taken in sequence.

You take free Recoveries at the end of Post Segment 4 (that is why Rec is also cut).

Defensive actions cost you one or a half phase at the end of the turn. But thier effect lasts until the end of the turn.

 

Hm, does not quite have the elegance I saw in SR5. I still need to figure out how to translate the SR5 Initiative Score+dice Calculation too Hero Atributes.