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Dodge and block arrows


steph

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I picture dodging an arrow to be more moving erratically to make it harder for the archer to hit, rather than seeing the arrow coming and moving specifically out of its way.

 

As to blocking an arrow, I might allow a character to 'hide' behind a large shield, but I probably wouldn't let him parry arrows with his sword without a very large CV penalty.

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Yes, dodging arrows,bolts and even bullets,is a matter of being aware that you are targeted and you begin moving erratically to make yourself a more difficult target, which in Hero terms, you gain the DCV bonus.

 

Blocking an arrow or crossbow bolt is Missile Deflection, which is its own Power or Skill or Talent, depending upon which version of Hero you play.  As for how realistic Missile Deflection vs arrows is, there are martial arts who practice this skill, so while it is unusual, it is not outside the bounds of believability for a skilled warrior to accomplish.

 

 

https://youtu.be/Qzhs1Z8Rwnk

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I picture dodging an arrow to be more moving erratically to make it harder for the archer to hit, rather than seeing the arrow coming and moving specifically out of its way.

Since arrows can be visible in flight, the latter is possible at sufficient range. I would expect it to be impossible to hit a person at 100 yards with one arrow if that person is paying attention.

 

The success of dodging would therefore be a function of arrow velocity, range, number of simultaneous incoming arrows, target perception, target reaction time, and target agility.

 

I'd say that the target can always dodge as a function of "moving erratically". Specific evasion of a perceived attack can be handled as a dive for cover.

 

Blocking is a whole other ball of wax. Because it requires the active perception of and reaction to the incoming attack, I'd have to give penalties to trying to block an arrow at close range--it'd be at least as hard as a called shot to the hand. Blocking with a shield can give the DCV bonus of the shield to the block, as always.

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Since arrows can be visible in flight, the latter is possible at sufficient range. I would expect it to be impossible to hit a person at 100 yards with one arrow if that person is paying attention.

 

Or closer - Miyamoto Musashi, who had a deal of practical experience, noted that bows had the weakness that arrows can be seen and dodged. Blocking arrows with a shield or a weapon is not only historically described, you can see it being done on youtube.

 

In terms of distance the very fastest high tech bow and arrows can shoot an arrow at around 350 fps (but that speed falls off rapidly with distance - at 100 yards, it's doing about half that speed) so they take over a second to hit their target. Traditional bows in the hands of professional archers manage about about half to two thirds of that. So an arrow is going to take about 2 seconds to reach a target at 100 yards. So you are absolutely right - at that range, you don't even have to be an experienced warrior to simply dodge the arrow - as long as you are watching. Even at 30 yards, you will still have enough time to dodge/block if your reflexes are really good.

 

cheers, Mark

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I spent an afternoon with the bowyer for the Foresters of Arden (before longbows were as readily available as they are nowadays, and longbow shooting was pretty much the preserve of a scant handful of wealthy folk), and he said that when they were refereeing "clout shoots" (range 100m plus, at targets laid flat on the ground), you would watch the shooter, and if, once he had loosed, you couldn't see the arrow, you should move, because it meant the thing was point-on to you. Yes, the refs stood out by the targets; it was the only way to have a running score, because it was impossible to judge closeness-to-target from back on the firing line because the targets were laid flat.

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Hey Fantasy GM: your players can in all circumstances make a block or dodge against the crossbow bolts or arrows ?

In all circumstances, no. Not if bound, for example.

 

Even if held in a Grab I'd probably allow a Dodge - although DCV is still halved of course.

 

Is it realistic to think that we can dodged an arrow ?

Yes. Blocking may be more questionable.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Ducking behind a palindromedary

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Unless you're playing a really wild fantasy with amazing abilities beyond the usual sword and sorcerer thing (think Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon style), dodging arrows is unreasonable, and blocking arrows is going to be pretty tough.

I disagree. Both are reasonable, even in realistic campaigns. Dodging is just not standing still to make yourself easy to hit. Anyone can do this. Experienced warriors can do it better. Missile deflection should be rare, but people do it in the real world so it should be possible even in a realistic campaign setting.

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I'm just going on personal experience and history.   People didn't dodge and bat aside arrows in anything except fiction.

 

You can increase your DCV but you're not going to dodge the arrow like a matador.  You can move hoping the arrow doesn't go where you swerved to, but you're not going to slip around an arrow coming at you.  And unless you get really lucky, you're not going to bat aside an arrow coming at you, either.  You can put your shield up and try to take the arrow on it, but not slap it away like a nerf ball.

 

Unless the game is a really fantastical one, then anything goes. 

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You are not Dodging the arrow, you are Dodging the aim of the person shooting at you. Period. We've been over this a million times with new people whining that "dodging bullets" isn't "realistic" while playing Batman clones in a superhero game.

 

You say you can increase your DCV by moving then declare that Dodging is unrealistic. Dodging IS increasing your DCV. That's ALL Dodging is. You are the one applying the unrealistic SFX of "slipping around an arrow" and "dodging like a matador" and them complaining that your own examples aren't realistic.

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I'm just going on personal experience and history.

 

 

Good idea. I agree.

 

I think womble also agrees with going on personal experience.

 

I spent an afternoon with the bowyer for the Foresters of Arden (before longbows were as readily available as they are nowadays, and longbow shooting was pretty much the preserve of a scant handful of wealthy folk), and he said that when they were refereeing "clout shoots" (range 100m plus, at targets laid flat on the ground), you would watch the shooter, and if, once he had loosed, you couldn't see the arrow, you should move, because it meant the thing was point-on to you. Yes, the refs stood out by the targets; it was the only way to have a running score, because it was impossible to judge closeness-to-target from back on the firing line because the targets were laid flat.

And I think Markdoc agrees with going on history.

 

Or closer - Miyamoto Musashi, who had a deal of practical experience, noted that bows had the weakness that arrows can be seen and dodged. Blocking arrows with a shield or a weapon is not only historically described, you can see it being done on youtube.

 

In terms of distance the very fastest high tech bow and arrows can shoot an arrow at around 350 fps (but that speed falls off rapidly with distance - at 100 yards, it's doing about half that speed) so they take over a second to hit their target. Traditional bows in the hands of professional archers manage about about half to two thirds of that. So an arrow is going to take about 2 seconds to reach a target at 100 yards. So you are absolutely right - at that range, you don't even have to be an experienced warrior to simply dodge the arrow - as long as you are watching. Even at 30 yards, you will still have enough time to dodge/block if your reflexes are really good.

 

cheers, Mark

 

People didn't dodge and bat aside arrows in anything except fiction.

This I can't agree with. I try to make a habit of not agreeing with statements that aren't so.

 

You can increase your DCV

Which is the very definition of Dodge. The game effect of Dodge is to increase DCV. I think everyone agrees you can dodge arrows in the sense that you can use the Dodge Maneuver to increase DCV against being attacked by one.

 

but you're not going to dodge the arrow like a matador.

 

 

People on the forums have gone around and around about this sort of thing. Is what the matador doing to the bull a Dodge in game terms, or a Block in game terms?

 

I think we have a consensus about Dodge, but not about Block, as far as defending against arrows.

 

You can move hoping the arrow doesn't go where you swerved to, but you're not going to slip around an arrow coming at you.  And unless you get really lucky, you're not going to bat aside an arrow coming at you, either.  You can put your shield up and try to take the arrow on it,

That would constitute using Block with a shield. Again we're in agreement I think, I'd allow a shield using character to use Block vs an arrow.

 

but not slap it away like a nerf ball.

By this I assume you mean using Block with a sword or even bare hands. Unlike Dodge, I for one don't think this is something that can be done by anyone automatically without penalty, and you seem to be inclined to not permit it at all.

 

I might consider allowing it if the character has a Martial Block or Skill Levels specifically with Block, and a weapon is used (not bare hands.) Or a bare hand "Block" defined as stepping aside for the arrow, IF I think the range is reasonable to allow that. But I don't think it's unreasonable to disallow such, either.

 

Unless the game is a really fantastical one, then anything goes.

 

Well, Fantasy Hero is the name of the game.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Now if you're about to unleash a storm of arrows, I'm going to hide behind the palindromedary

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For what it's worth, claiming that 'real people' can't hit or block arrows with a weapon kind of runs up against the fact that in real life, people do, and in historical references they did so in real battles. Google up Gojin-no Tajima, for example. Musashi also claimed to have done it when attacked by archers after killing Matashichiro Yoshioka. If you want a more modern example, you can also check out Isao Machii, whose shtick is not cutting arrows in flight (too many people are doing that these days) but defecting BB pellets in flight (for example,

).

These are both much smaller and much faster than an arrow. And he does it at much shorter ranges than 100 yards, giving him a great deal less time to react.  Historically, in Japan, the technique was called Yadome no Jutsu or yagiridome.

 

Now, the stunts on Youtube can be - reasonably - faulted for being staged: the sword-wielder is prepared, the missile is travelling on a known path ... and yet. The sword-wielder has very little time to react, prepared or no. And they still have to hit a tiny target travelling at very high speed (in Isao's case, starting with the sword in his scabbard). Given that highly skilled martial artists in the real world can deflect missiles with their weapons, it's not a great stretch to allow the even more highly-trained warriors typical in fantasy games to learn to do so.

 

cheers, Mark

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350 km/h is a bit over 300 feet per second, which is only a little hotter than we used to run in airsoft. This man is in no danger of serious damage.

 

Typical arrow velocities are on the order of 350 fps. Typical arrow sizes are just a bit larger than 6mm diameter spheres.

Aye, a 90cm arrow is 150x as long as a 6mm BB, giving a commensurately wider time shutter for the deflecting object to intersect its location.

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350 km/h is a bit over 300 feet per second, which is only a little hotter than we used to run in airsoft. This man is in no danger of serious damage.

 

Typical arrow velocities are on the order of 350 fps. Typical arrow sizes are just a bit larger than 6mm diameter spheres.

 

I agree that's he's in no danger of damage - these are BB pellets, fer pete's sake. But 350 fps is scorching for a bow. "Speed bows" are typically designed as those firing above 320 fps, and the fastest bows on the market (compound bows firing thin, stiff graphite shaft arrows) top out a bit less than 350 fps. Bow nerds obsess about breaking 350 fps (http://www.huntersfriend.com/bow-review-400-fps-bow/400-fps-compound-bow.htm) the same way gun nerds obsess about muzzle KE. So 350 fps is not typical, that's as fast as bows get with the newest, bestest technology.

 

The fastest traditional-style bows (recurves) top out  around 200 fps, but that's using a modern carbon fibre technology and light arrows designed for speed, and target shooting, not for wounding. Using a traditional bow and 150 gram arrows (about 5 ounces: the old standard for hunting and a bit lighter than war arrows) 140-150 fps is considered pretty damn good - typically they fall around 120-140 fps.

 

So Isao is drawing his sword from the scabbard and swatting away missiles about 2% of an arrow's size (if you look at slo-mo videos of people cutting arrows, they hit the shaft, not straight onto the tip), which are travelling about 2-3x the speed of an arrow fired from a traditional style bow and he's doing it at about 20 metres. Even taking into account the fact that the videos are staged to give him a really good chance at it, it still demonstrates that he'd have no problem hitting a larger, slower target (in fact, he gave up cutting arrows for démonstrations like this precisely because it was too easy, and too many other people are doing it now).

 

cheers, Mark

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