Cost of Aid, questions

[Kuleneko]

Does Aid cost more points depending on what is being aided? 

 

Can you use Aid on OCV, DCV and SPD? It seems like it would be completely broken if it was possible...

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

You can. The point cost doesn't vary but...

 

 

Let's Say You Have a an Aid OCV, DCV, and SPD. 7D6 (STANDARD EFFECT 21 Points).

 

+4 OCV 

+2 DCV (Due To The Defense Power Doubling For Aid)

+2 SPD

 

 

This means that the point cost to up the stat once must be fulfilled to increase the stat with Aid

 

 

 

As Words Die, I Finally Get To Help Someone Quickly. 

[bigdamnhero]

Remember the effects of Aid (and other Adjustment Powers) apply to the Active Point cost, not the Characteristic value. So while 6d6 of Aid STR costs the same as 6d6 Aid SPD, the former will on the average increase 21 points of STR (which costs 1 for 1) while the latter will on average increase 2 points of SPD (which costs 10 for 1).

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Remember the effects of Aid (and other Adjustment Powers) apply to the Active Point cost, not the Characteristic value. So while 6d6 of Aid STR costs the same as 6d6 Aid SPD, the former will on the average increase 21 points of STR (which costs 1 for 1) while the latter will on average increase 2 points of SPD (which costs 10 for 1).

Um... Wouldn't a 6D6 Increase STR by 18 not 21? Additionally, the SPD would increase by 1 not 2. 

 

 

 

As Words Die, I Notice There Are A Lot Of Similarities In My Argument To Yours!

[Scott Baker]

Um... Wouldn't a 6D6 Increase STR by 18 not 21? Additionally, the SPD would increase by 1 not 2. 

 

 

 

As Words Die, I Notice There Are A Lot Of Similarities In My Argument To Yours!

The average roll per die is 3.5, not 3. You might be thinking of standard effect. So 6 * 3.5 = 21 points. (Note: I'm not looking to get into a debate/argument over the fact that you can't roll a 3.5 directly on a die. Just covering the math.)

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

The average roll per die is 3.5, not 3. You might be thinking of standard effect. So 6 * 3.5 = 21 points. (Note: I'm not looking to get into a debate/argument over the fact that you can't roll a 3.5 directly on a die. Just covering the math.)

Fine! I've just always used 3 for mine!

 

 

As Words Die, I Find I Don't Want To Get Into A Debate Either

[bigdamnhero]

Yes, I was assuming an average roll of 3.5, rather than the Standard Effect Rule.

[Lucius]

Does Aid cost more points depending on what is being aided?

Well the best way to think of it is not that "The Aid costs more (or less) points" but that "The effect of Aid is reduced (or increased.)"

 

First Thing to Understand: Aid Goes by Active Points.

 

Aiding something doesn't "Add one point" to what was aided, it increases whatever is aided by 1 Active Point.

 

First Implication of That: Remember that Characteristics have different costs.

 

So for example, increasing END by 5 pts costs only 1 Character point. So if you Aid someone's END by 1 pt, they would gain FIVE END pts. (NOTE: They don't really, but we'll get to why in a moment. For now, assume they do.)

 

For another example, SPD costs 10 Character pts to increase by 1. So if you want to improve SPD by 1, you need to do at least 10 pts of Aid.

 

Second Implication of That: Advantages Matter.

 

So say Sgt Xanthrax has the power to shout at his SPD 2 squad and get them up to SPeeD, so to speak.

Move it! On the Double, Let's Go, Go, GO!: (Total: 22 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +1 SPD, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Nearby (+1/2), Grantor can only grant the power to others, Sticky (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; Leadership; -1/4), Incantations ("Look alive, or I'll make you wish you were dead!" etc; -1/4) (Real Cost: 15)

 

So if Scaramdrax the Magnificent uses his Encourage Leadership ability (Aid to all Powers with Leadership special effect) and wants Xanthrax to power up the SPD of the troops even more, he needs to do 22 pts worth of Aid!

 

Third Implication of That: Limitations Matter, But Not How You Might Hope.

 

SuperDuperMan has bought END that doesn't work if exposed to craptonite. UnderDoc lends him some vitamin pills bought as Aid to END. SuperDuperMan's END only costs 9 pts for 1 Character point, but the vitamins are not more effective for him than for anyone else. Even worse: A Limited Power that's been Aided is still Limited, so the vitamins are wasted if SuperDuperMan takes them in the presence of craptonite - he technically has more END but still can't use it.

 

Second Thing to Understand: There's a Special Rule for Aid, or Any Adjustment Power, and "Defensive Powers."

 

Adjustment Powers are at HALF EFFECT for Defensive Powers - which includes certain Characteristics such as DCV, END, STUN, BOD, etc. So you don't really gain 5 pts of END for 1 pt of Aid, you gain 3. For 2 pts of Aid you gain 5, etc.

 

 

Can you use Aid on OCV, DCV and SPD? It seems like it would be completely broken if it was possible...

To answer in order:

 

Yes, but it takes 5 pts of Aid effect to gain a point of OCV.

 

Yes, but it takes 10 pts of Aid effect to gain a point of DCV.

 

Yes, but it takes 10 pts of Aid effect to gain a point of SPD.

 

"Completely Broken?": (Total: 40 Active Cost, 20 Real Cost) Aid OCV, DCV, SPD 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1) (40 Active Points); One Use At A Time (-1) (Real Cost: 20)

Increases OCV by 2, DCV and SPD by 1. Costs 4 END per phase.

 

"Compared to This?": (Total: 25 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) +1 SPD (10 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) <b>plus</b> +2 OCV (10 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) <b>plus</b> +1 DCV (5 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) (Real Cost: 2)

Increases OCV by 2, DCV and SPD by 1. Costs 4 END per phase.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Aid Palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Well the best way to think of it is not that "The Aid costs more (or less) points" but that "The effect of Aid is reduced (or increased.)"

 

First Thing to Understand: Aid Goes by Active Points.

 

Aiding something doesn't "Add one point" to what was aided, it increases whatever is aided by 1 Active Point.

 

First Implication of That: Remember that Characteristics have different costs.

 

So for example, increasing END by 5 pts costs only 1 Character point. So if you Aid someone's END by 1 pt, they would gain FIVE END pts. (NOTE: They don't really, but we'll get to why in a moment. For now, assume they do.)

 

For another example, SPD costs 10 Character pts to increase by 1. So if you want to improve SPD by 1, you need to do at least 10 pts of Aid.

 

Second Implication of That: Advantages Matter.

 

So say Sgt Xanthrax has the power to shout at his SPD 2 squad and get them up to SPeeD, so to speak.

Move it! On the Double, Let's Go, Go, GO!: (Total: 22 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +1 SPD, Persistent (+1/4), Usable Nearby (+1/2), Grantor can only grant the power to others, Sticky (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; Leadership; -1/4), Incantations ("Look alive, or I'll make you wish you were dead!" etc; -1/4) (Real Cost: 15)

 

So if Scaramdrax the Magnificent uses his Encourage Leadership ability (Aid to all Powers with Leadership special effect) and wants Xanthrax to power up the SPD of the troops even more, he needs to do 22 pts worth of Aid!

 

Third Implication of That: Limitations Matter, But Not How You Might Hope.

 

SuperDuperMan has bought END that doesn't work if exposed to craptonite. UnderDoc lends him some vitamin pills bought as Aid to END. SuperDuperMan's END only costs 9 pts for 1 Character point, but the vitamins are not more effective for him than for anyone else. Even worse: A Limited Power that's been Aided is still Limited, so the vitamins are wasted if SuperDuperMan takes them in the presence of craptonite - he technically has more END but still can't use it.

 

Second Thing to Understand: There's a Special Rule for Aid, or Any Adjustment Power, and "Defensive Powers."

 

Adjustment Powers are at HALF EFFECT for Defensive Powers - which includes certain Characteristics such as DCV, END, STUN, BOD, etc. So you don't really gain 5 pts of END for 1 pt of Aid, you gain 3. For 2 pts of Aid you gain 5, etc.

 

 

To answer in order:

 

Yes, but it takes 5 pts of Aid effect to gain a point of OCV.

 

Yes, but it takes 10 pts of Aid effect to gain a point of DCV.

 

Yes, but it takes 10 pts of Aid effect to gain a point of SPD.

 

"Completely Broken?": (Total: 40 Active Cost, 20 Real Cost) Aid OCV, DCV, SPD 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Expanded Effect (x3 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+1) (40 Active Points); One Use At A Time (-1) (Real Cost: 20)

Increases OCV by 2, DCV and SPD by 1. Costs 4 END per phase.

 

"Compared to This?": (Total: 25 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) +1 SPD (10 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) <b>plus</b> +2 OCV (10 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) <b>plus</b> +1 DCV (5 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) (Real Cost: 2)

Increases OCV by 2, DCV and SPD by 1. Costs 4 END per phase.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Aid Palindromedary

 

Remember that AID works on others by Default so builds designed for personal use can take Only to Aid Self (-1).

 

Here a couple of example VPP Aid slots from my rookie version of Superman:

 

0    40) Super Solar Battery v1: Aid  CON & REC 4d6 (standard effect: 12 points), Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (CON & REC; +1/2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1) (60 Active Points); Only to Aid Self (-1), Conditional Power Only in Direct Sunlight (-0) Real Cost: 27

[Notes: Since CON & REC are both considered Defensive Powers vs. Adjustments the effect of AID is halved (6e1 pg141). A single use is effectively +6 CON & +6 REC.  Maximum Effect is +12 CON & +12 REC. Effectively fades at 1 point of CON & REC per 2 Turns.] - END=6

0    41) Super Solar Battery v2: Aid  END 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points) (60 Active Points); Only to Aid Self (-1), Conditional Power Only in Direct Sunlight (-0) Real Cost: 27

[Notes: There are 3 factors that go into how much END is provided by this.  1) END costs 1 Real point per 5 gained. 2) END is considered a Defensive Power vs. Adjustments so their effects are halved (6e1 pg141).  3) The power COSTS 6 END to activate.  The total of all of this results in an immediate boost of +69 END (30x5=150, 150/2=75, 75-6=69 with a Maximum Effect of 138) that begins to fade at -25 END per Turn.  This boosted END is used first.  When combined with "More powerful than a locomotive v3" (120 STR Total @16 END/Phase) & "Up, Up and Away! v2" (Flight 40m giving +10 STR @4 END/Phase) it allows for a combined 'Total Lifting STR' of 130 before PUSHING that is sustainable for ~ 1-2 Turns (Maybe 3 Turns if also combined with "Super Solar Battery v1"). Accoring to APG1, 140 STR is enough to lift 6.4 million tons or The Great Pyramid of Giza (est.).] - END=6

 

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

I would caution against including SPD in an Aid as it creates a potential nightmare in tracking fade rates and how SPD is changed each TURN.

 

I went with the following Characteristic as a Power VPP slot for my rookie Flash (my rookie Superman could potentially have a similar ability in his VPP as well).

 

0    1) The Fastest Man Alive! v1: +6 SPD (60 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) Real Cost: 40 - END=6

 

 

This construction method will provide a higher possible boost than Aid would but it only works as long as the VPP has points dedicated to the slot's use. This arguably means that Flash effectively loses access to half of his VPP's potential for a TURN if he uses this slot (due to the rules for changing SPD).

 

HM

[Lucius]

So a more complete answer to the question of Aiding SPD is: Yes, but it takes 10 pts of AID to increase SPD by 1 and you really really shouldn't.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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