Selling off MCVs

[Vondy]

If the character can't swim and it could realistically come up in play its not munchkinism.

 

On the other hand, if your game is about lunar colonists discovering a secret reticulan base...

 

Who cares if the character can swim or not?

[Surrealone]

I think doing so is munchkin.

 

In a superhero game, it also goes against the concept of playing a superhero for a super character to be "less than a normal" in any of their stats and resistances.

 

Protagonists in a superhero game are generally expected to be more than a normal.

 

And what about game play at the agent and heroic levels?  You DO realize that people play this game at 100, 150, and 200 pts (total, including complications), right?

 

And you understand that at those levels, the characters are more likely to be in the company of Shield agents or James Bond than they are to be chumming around with the likes of Superman or Wolverine, right?

 

i.e. In plenty of games, characters are commonly less than normal in some ways while better than normal in others ...  but still 'normals' and not 'supers'...

[Shiva13]

And what about game play at the agent and heroic levels?  You DO realize that people play this game at 100, 150, and 200 pts (total, including complications), right?

And you understand that at those levels, the characters are more likely to be in the company of Shield agents or James Bond than they are to be chumming around with the likes of Superman or Wolverine, right?

 

i.e. In plenty of games, characters are commonly less than normal in some ways while better than normal in others ...  but still 'normals' and not 'supers'...

 

Agent and Heroic level characters are not "normals". They are the equivilent of action and spy movie protagonists. Which by their very nature are seen as greater than "normal".

 

Good try. Just not good enough.

[Surrealone]

I think doing so is munchkin.

 

In a superhero game, it also goes against the concept of playing a superhero for a super character to be "less than a normal" in any of their stats and resistances.

 

Protagonists in a superhero game are generally expected to be more than a normal.

Since you are hanging your hat on equating a super character being 'less than normal' in any stats/resistances to munchkinism, I take it that means you must feel that Professor X is a munchkin character since he has running bought down to zero, and above average (i.e. 8) STR (and likely CON) at best?

 

Let's just say I can't agree with that perspective ... at all.  Let's also just say that not all games played with Hero System are superheroic ... meaning 'less than normal' stats make a lot of sense in 50, 100, 150, 200, and other similar low-point agent/heroic level games.  Since you seem not to be accounting for such things, I think perhaps you should re-assess.

 

 

Agent and Heroic level characters are not "normals". They are the equivilent of action and spy movie protagonists. Which by their very nature are seen as greater than "normal".

 

Good try. Just not good enough.

So, umm, watch any of the new Flash episodes, lately?  Cisco Ramon (aka 'Vibe') is average (i.e. 8) in most physical attributes, I'd expect.  If you take a look at the AVERAGE INDIVIDUALS table in Champions Complete, it shows straight 8's for STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO and PRE.  These are all less than the normal 10's one starts with.  And agents commonly have an average stat here/there ... if not several.

 

Only 'noteworthy normals' (to quote 6th Edition) have straight 10's as an example -- and those can of course be apportioned differently for desired effect (high PRE, low CON, oratory type; high CON, low STR wiry Irish drinking type, etc).  The 'skilled normal' table shows 3 or so of those things higher than their bases of 10, but it's an example -- and clearly the points can again be handled differently (example, high STR, high CON body builder with only average DEX and INT).  The 'skilled normal' is, by the way, a 50pt character.  Then the 'competent normal' is 100 pts, and has yet more improved stats, which could, again, be handled differently if desired (i.e. all brains/ego, no brawn ... or all muscle/physical traits and no brains/ego). 

 

Sorry, but I think you're imposing YOUR idea of munchkin on sellbacks that, very clearly, are not only common, but expected if 6th Ed. references around the term 'average' equating to a stat of 8 is to be followed.

 

With that in mind, if the vision for a super happens to be an average (i..e 8, not 10!) guy in terms of physicality ... who has insane intellect/ego ... and mind powers ... and is crippled such that he must use a wheelchair ... who people call 'Professor X' ... I think it's perfectly appropriate for him to have 8 (or even less) STR, DEX, CON ... and maybe even PRE (until you realize he has mental powers, then his PRE spikes way up).  But he's 'munchkin' to you ... because he has 'less than normal' stats.

 

Quite a view you have there.  Clearly the comic book world ... doesn't agree with you.  Nor do the 6th Ed. guidelines when it comes to what an 'average' stat score is...

[ghost-angel]

Too bad you've never played in my games then; I take it as a challenge to figure out a way to work obscure background skills into the game. In fact, I just reviewed the PC sheets for my current campaign to confirm all of them had come up at least once, to include PS: Dancing. At the end of my last campaign I took it as a personal failure that I never managed to work PS: Falconeering into the story. (I once saw someone work PS: Grill Master into a convention game, which I thought was particularly impressive.)

Not only was PS Dancing the free Background Skill that was supposed to be no more than flavor, it came up in the most epic way possible.

 

 

As for this conversation, and it's points;

 

Selling back a stat is neither direct invitation for the GM to 'make sure it comes up' nor is it automatically a munchkin maneuver.

 

The idea of selling back DMCV Characteristic on a generic level does strike one as gaming the system slightly - at 3 you're going to already be pretty easy to hit for any Mentalist who has likely purchases their OMCV up to 5 or even higher as is generally in character with the archetype. Lowering a stat you never intended to use to begin with looks, on the surface, like a way to get a few more points out of the process for no real reason.

 

If you have a specific reason in mind, cool, all the power to you. Either way, selling or not selling back that Characteristic is not inherently bad either way, and is for the GM & Player to work out the why's and what's of it.

 

However -  if it's a campaign where mental powers are not expected to show up, or show up so rarely as to be relegated to a Big Bad (to borrow a Buffy term); then selling it back is almost certainly going to be gaming the system for points. If it's not expected at all in the campaign (regularly or rarely) the Characteristic is effectively non-existant and the selling of it is simply bad form. Or at least a good solid chunk of cheese.

 

 

Now, as for selling back other stats; Players & GMs should be building to concept at all times; if a concept involves a Character with 8 STR, 8 INT, and 8 PRE because that's just what the player sees (average strength, intelligence, and presence of personality) then run with it. There's nothing inherently munchkin about dropping stats to Average Normal.

 

While Hero lends itself best to Cinematic Storytelling, there are a number of genres that don't go that direction that Hero also lends itself extremely well too (specifically because it has built in that Characters start with 10s so they can go Up and Down).

 

Horror (especially things like Call Of Cthulhu) actually works better if the majority of Characteristics are sold back to 8 or lower; it's about Normals in a world beyond their experiences.

Sword & Sorcery campaigns have their share of Mighty Heroes, but also have their share of Average People in Heroic Situations (as an example Ladyhawke was a movie where most Characteristics were within the 8-10 range, with possibly no more than 2 going above that).

 

To say Hero is just about above average people is narrowing the focus far too much. There's a lot you can do with this toolkit.

 

I mean, how many old school D&D gamers, playing RAW, had to run with a character whose stats were something like 10, 8, 9, 11, 12, 5 ... and then had the most epic time when Schlub The Sword Swinger killed that dragon that one time? Seriously, we don't need epic, and to call out the idea of creating Average or Lower as munchkin because "Hero is about Cinematic Only" or some other silliness?

 

Sure, sometimes you're going to want to play Leverage where everyone is totally awesome at what they do; but sometimes you want to play Call Of Cthulhu where you're basically normal people with a little too much knowledge on their hands.

[Grailknight]

Professor X is a very bad example of your point. His sell back of running affects the character and plot greatly as it comes up all the time in comics(not so much in the movies tho.) And that's the point that seems to be missing, all sell backs aren't the same though they may have the same numerical value.

 

Challenge: What other Characteristic will you sell back to 1 besides OMCV/DMCV and not expect to have it come up in play.

[Shiva13]

I call it munchkin. Because it is.

 

It's trying to get extra character points for free. Which is straight up gaming the system. "Gaming the system" has another name. Cheating.

 

I'm going to also address Grailknight's example. Professor X has a Physical Complication. It is in no way a "sell back" of characteristics. To engage in "selling back" those characteristics would be "double dipping". First gaining character points for the Complication. Then trying to get extra character points for "selling back" the characteristics. That's straight up cheating the system. And any GM worth their salt will look at a player and veto it.

[Grailknight]

Ok, selling back running and taking the physical complication is fine if you're willing to accept the consequences.  Selling back something and expecting no consequences is not.

[CptPatriot]

The problem isn't in the mechanics of the Hero System(HS), it's perfectly legal to buy it down. The problem is with the execution of your concept.

 

HS relies heavily on the concept of the character you are attempting to play. The rules are there to help you with that. I have a character, Surge, whom I bought down her characteristics to a Normals as a baseline for the character. I wanted that so if her mutant abilities were ever suppressed, I'd have a definitive baseline for the GM to work with.

 

There was no munchkinism involved in my decision, just the desire to make the character as I saw her. Her Presense of 8 made things difficult, but I eventually bought PRE Defense to help her compensate for the monsters she runs across as a hero, but keep her Timid demeanor.

[Shiva13]

Seeing this type of munchkinism has only served to reinforce one of the reasons why I took a long break from the Hero System.

 

When people Munchkin the system, they nullify the fun of using the system for me. Using the Hero System becomes a burden instead of a source of pleasure. And frankly. I have other games that do the job for me without the aggrivation.

 

To quote the Angry Video Game Nerd: "@#$% it!"

[CptPatriot]

I'd just like to point out that Champions Complete has characters with 0s in their MCV stats.  Page 207, "average individuals".  Children are listed as having 0s in both those stats.

 

Sorry to bust your bubble, but after examining Champions Complete and the 6th Edition Vol 1 book, I can clearly see that the issue of children having 0 OMCV & DMCV in the table is the result of a typo. Looks like something else that'll need to be corrected for the PDF and next printing.

 

The cost of being a small child is the same in CC 207 as it is in 6E1 437, -55 points, and since the 6th Ed version of small children has OMCV & DMCV at 3, it is clear that the CC version has to have them at 3 also.

[massey]

Seeing this type of munchkinism has only served to reinforce one of the reasons why I took a long break from the Hero System.

 

When people Munchkin the system, they nullify the fun of using the system for me. Using the Hero System becomes a burden instead of a source of pleasure. And frankly. I have other games that do the job for me without the aggrivation.

 

To quote the Angry Video Game Nerd: "@#$% it!"

 

If the 6 points someone can get by selling their OMCV down is the breaking point for you, then you should be glad you've never seen any of my characters.  You'd be like:

 

[Shiva13]

If the 6 points someone can get by selling their OMCV down is the breaking point for you, then you should be glad you've never seen any of my characters.  You'd be like:

 

 

 

Usually I'm the GM.

 

And many posters in this thread seem to forget one of the core rules of the Hero System. "The GM is the final arbiter of the rules."

 

And as a GM, looking at that stunt, I'd tell you to "Go @#$% yourself" And throw you out of the game group.

 

A player committing such an act is "gaming the system", And not actually playing in the campaign that the GM and the other players have worked so hard to carefully craft. They instead are being directly disruptive. And frankly, in my opinion, they deserve the wrath of the whole game group.

 

I had one player in a campaign in the past that pulled this stunt with literally every character they submitted. Regardless of concept. It absolutely was an act to scam extra points through "gaming the system". There was no character concept justification for it at any level.

[ghost-angel]

95% of the time, I'd agree with you Shiva. It is a seriously cheese move for the majority of games and systems out there.

 

It's that last 5% that happens where it's actually within the realm of reasonable that makes your fiat statement look a bit over dramatic.

[Shiva13]

OMCV also represents a character's force of will. A character without sufficient force of will, won't be capable of heroic deeds. Simply because they do not have the force of will to motivate them to do them in the first place.

[Shiva13]

95% of the time, I'd agree with you Shiva. It is a seriously cheese move for the majority of games and systems out there.

 

It's that last 5% that happens where it's actually within the realm of reasonable that makes your fiat statement look a bit over dramatic.

 

Given that game groups I have been in have self-destructed because of the dominance of such cheese moves by careless players. No, I don't think it's being overly dramatic at all.

 

A GM has only so much energy and resources to give to running a game. When they become exhausted and decide the game is no fun for them, then the game ends.

 

Garbage like this wastes a GM's valuable time and energy. Time and energy which can and should be focused on creating storylines for the characters. And anything that compromises that, I absolutely do feel runs contrary to the very existence of the campaign in the first place.

[Christopher R Taylor]

OMCV also represents a character's force of will. A character without sufficient force of will, won't be capable of heroic deeds.

I disagree.  OMCV can indicate force of will, but like everything in Hero, the special effect is up to the build.  It can be a psychoreactive targeting system.  It can be an innate ability to find and target minds.  It can be learned skill in penetrating mental defenses.  It can be a million different things.

 

EGO is will power, and someone with low willpower will find it very challenging to carry out certain particularly difficult deeds (ones that require an Ego roll) but combat value is up to definition.

[Shiva13]

EGO is will power, and someone with low willpower will find it very challenging to carry out certain particularly difficult deeds (ones that require an Ego roll) but combat value is up to definition.

 

SInce OMCV and DMCV themselves became flat characteristics. They carry just as much weight regarding the representation of a character's motivational force as EGO.

 

EGO only represents the basis of what one can do with EGO based skills now. Nothing else. It doesn't count for offensive or defensive actions. Nor does it reflect decision making. And it does not represent a character's innate Mental Defense.

 

Decision making is an act of will. Acts of will are actions.

[bigdamnhero]

This thread is getting seriously vitriolic. Everyone take a deep breath and think about rolling natural 3s...

 

To say Hero is just about above average people is narrowing the focus far too much. There's a lot you can do with this toolkit.

Agreed. Assuming PCs are above average is true for probably 90%+ of my games. But I've played and run quite a few really fun games based around average people. Horror being the most common example.

 

OMCV also represents a character's force of will. A character without sufficient force of will, won't be capable of heroic deeds. Simply because they do not have the force of will to motivate them to do them in the first place.

That's a great point - if your character concept is a weak-willed person, that should reflect on your character sheet in more ways than just MCV. So if that's your character concept and you're willing to commit to it, fine. If you're just selling back one characteristic because you don't think you'll need it, that's kinda munchkiney.

[Shiva13]

When you are talking about action heroes. You are not talking about normal people. Normal people don't have to fit any kind of characteristics requirements to do their jobs. Action heroes do.

 

Police academies, agencies, and the military run their students through a battery of tests. Including tests of willpower. To make sure they fit the requirements of the jobs they are to preform.

 

Agent level characters are Protagonists. They are not "normals".

[bigdamnhero]

When you are talking about action heroes. You are not talking about normal people. Normal people don't have to fit any kind of characteristics requirements to do their jobs. Action heroes do.

 

Police academies, agencies, and the military run their students through a battery of tests. Including tests of willpower. To make sure they fit the requirements of the jobs they are to preform.

 

Agent level characters are Protagonists. They are not "normals".

You are assuming every RPG campaign is an action movie. That may well be true for your games, and I'll acknowledge Hero generally assumes that as a default, but it's not the only way to play. Many fictional setting feature protagonists who are completely average normals: horror was mentioned, but also some sci-fi settings. I've even run supers and urban fantasy-type games where the PCs start out as Joe Normals before they're hit with a radiation accident or transported to Barsoom or whatever. If that style of play doesn't suit you, fine. But it's a perfectly valid game, and can be a ton of fun. Hero loses a bit of granularity at that level, but with a few tweaks it works just fine.

 

Also, speaking as someone who has been in both the military and law enforcement, and has actually had the words "Special Agent" in my job title before: I worked alongside a lot of people who had 8s or less in some characteristics...

[Shiva13]

I assume that because the Hero System has displayed it as the basic assumption for all levels of protagonists since the 1st edition. So I think I have a pretty good basis.

 

I also have to point out the Evil Dead movies. Ash was in no way a "normal" when he entered the fray.

[massey]

Ash was 100% normal in the first one. He was actually kind of the wimpy guy.

[massey]

And later on, I wouldn't exactly give him a high INT.

[Shiva13]

And later on, I wouldn't exactly give him a high INT.

 

You are forgetting Army Of Darkness. Where he brought out books on engineering, chemistry, and others the create the crazy machinery he ultimately made.

 

Those books also were used in Evil Dead 2, when he modified the chainsaw and his boom stick.

 

So I disagree. There was nothing wrong with his INT. But there was plenty wrong with his sanity.