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Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net


phoenix240

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I don't get the impression that this is a matter of wanting to get 1000 pages of material for only $30.

 

6e1/6e2 differs from the Complete books in two salient ways: massively more examples, and rules that are just plain different. Someone who buys into the Hero System through Champions Complete isn't going to be making page-count comparisons with an older edition of the rules they never knew they needed. They won't be complaining that their $30 purchase doesn't have the same depth of content as $120 worth of older material. What they will be complaining about is confusion over the rules themselves being current and (ostensibly) complete--even if the examples aren't as extensive as they once were--yet not being the rules cited when they ask questions in the official support forums.

 

The perception that 6e1/6e2 constitute the "full" rules, while CC and FHC are current yet somehow "incomplete" needs to be addressed IMO. And by addressed I mean in the form of official company policy deprecating 6e1/6e2 in favor of Complete and not pretending that one can stand in for the other. Either that or bring 6e1/6e2 back as the official current rule set, make them available in hard copy form, and stop telling the marketplace that the Complete series represents the true state-of-the-system today. Hero Games can't have it both ways; not if they want to avoid confusion for newcomers.

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The more I think of my last answer, the more I wonder about the solution to the overall problem of the health of RPGs in general.   When RPGs were first introduced, they were marketed to a particular set.  The first players were typically more imaginative, better read, and better educated than many of the gamers that game companies are trying to pander to.  Early games were full of rule and story holes, but they were played by people who read books that didn't have pictures in them for fun.  They were played by people who were used to filling in the gaps left out by authors.  They didn't have movies and computer games with realistic FX, and they didn't have access to Internet gaming forums, and in many ways, I think gaming was more fun back then.  Now, game companies are trying to please a market that is getting harder to please, and who want everything handed down to them, and it is making gaming less for the rest of us.  Maybe, game companies should go back to aiming for the first crowd stop pandering to the latter.  I'm just getting over a cold and am a little punchy; so, the phraseology is a little scattered, but I think the core logic of my post is worth considering.

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The perception that 6e1/6e2 constitute the "full" rules, while CC and FHC are current yet somehow "incomplete" needs to be addressed IMO. And by addressed I mean in the form of official company policy deprecating 6e1/6e2 in favor of Complete and not pretending that one can stand in for the other. Either that or bring 6e1/6e2 back as the official current rule set, make them available in hard copy form, and stop telling the marketplace that the Complete series represents the true state-of-the-system today. Hero Games can't have it both ways; not if they want to avoid confusion for newcomers.

 

I could not have said this any better, myself.  (Red emphasis added by me, above, by the way.)  Unfortunately, there seems to be a group of people here that want to explain away the issue or offer excuses as to why it is the way it is ... rather than seek improvement to the way it is for the sake of improved ease of acquisition/clarification for newcomers.  With such attitudes, it's no wonder things don't change...

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I would also add that one does not get the impression that Champions Complete provides the complete game system merely from the title. The back cover asserts, in several different ways, that the book presents the full system and is all that players and GMs need to run the game. Moreover, nowhere in the book's 242 pages is there any mention whatsoever of 6e1 Character Creation or 6e2 Combat and Adventuring. A newcomer to the system would have no reason to think that the book they just bought is anything but the complete Hero System, and would be justifiably confused, if not irritated and disappointed in equal measure, to find that they were wrong.

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You misunderstand me. I am only proposing that Hero Games (Jason) make the 6e1/6e2 PDFs available as POD products at a place like DriveThruRPG or RPGNow. That takes virtually no effort and zero up-front costs on Hero Games' part to put into action.

Ah, I did misunderstand - thanks for clarifying.

 

The perception that 6e1/6e2 constitute the "full" rules, while CC and FHC are current yet somehow "incomplete" needs to be addressed IMO. And by addressed I mean in the form of official company policy deprecating 6e1/6e2 in favor of Complete and not pretending that one can stand in for the other. Either that or bring 6e1/6e2 back as the official current rule set, make them available in hard copy form, and stop telling the marketplace that the Complete series represents the true state-of-the-system today. Hero Games can't have it both ways; not if they want to avoid confusion for newcomers.

I'm not sure I agree with that - lots of games have different versions of the rules, going back to Basic vs AD&D. Even FATE has Core vs Accelerated. And as has been stated, CC/FHC *is* 6th Edition - they may not cover all the material 6e1&2 do, but the material they does cover is 99% identical to that in 6e1&2 except for length of verbiage & examples. That's not the problem as I see it.

 

IMO the issue is a much more narrow one: newcomers coming to the official Hero Games website with questions are unable to get official answers that reference the "current official" books they own, and if they do mention CC/FHC, the official company answer they get is "Sorry, I didn't write that book, but here's how it works in 6ed..." which implies (incorrectly) that CC/FHC are not 6ed and that there's a different set of rules they should be using instead...except those rules are out of print... 

 

The more I think of my last answer, the more I wonder about the solution to the overall problem of the health of RPGs in general.   When RPGs were first introduced, they were marketed to a particular set.  The first players were typically more imaginative, better read, and better educated than many of the gamers that game companies are trying to pander to.  Early games were full of rule and story holes, but they were played by people who read books that didn't have pictures in them for fun.  They were played by people who were used to filling in the gaps left out by authors.  They didn't have movies and computer games with realistic FX, and they didn't have access to Internet gaming forums, and in many ways, I think gaming was more fun back then.  Now, game companies are trying to please a market that is getting harder to please, and who want everything handed down to them, and it is making gaming less for the rest of us.  Maybe, game companies should go back to aiming for the first crowd stop pandering to the latter.  I'm just getting over a cold and am a little punchy; so, the phraseology is a little scattered, but I think the core logic of my post is worth considering.

As much as I love a good "These kids today..." rant  :winkgrin:  all I can say is that description doesn't match any of the young RPGers I know or meet at cons, who grew up reading Harry Potter and will happily go on about how Game of Thrones deviates from the books. #thekidsarealright  If they prefer simpler game systems these days, I think it's mainly because 1) such games are available, and cheaper, 2) they tend to be more interested in story than in simulationist mechanics (partly due to fewer people coming into the hobby with wargaming backgrounds and more with Vampire LARP background), and 3) who has the time these days?

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(this, incidentally is why I think going back to individualized, parsed out rules, was the wrong move. The All-In-One cat was taken out of the bag over a decade ago, even as far back as 4E, and now we're trying to put a whole family of kittens back in there... it's not working out IMO. It's just creating more frustration along the way.)

Personally I agree I'd much rather have seen a generic Hero System Complete rulebook (along the lines & length of CC/FHC) and then kept the genre book model. But you & I - and most of us on these forums - are clearly outliers. I understand the economics behind the decision, and I don't have enough insider knowledge of the RPG industry to say whether it was right or wrong. In general, I salute any move that's trying to bring in new players.

 

But on the current point: I don't see any confusion between CC and FHC - the confusion is between the Completes and 6e1&2. Even if they'd done a generic Hero System Complete, we'd be having the same conversation.

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IMO the issue is a much more narrow one: newcomers coming to the official Hero Games website with questions are unable to get official answers that reference the "current official" books they own, and if they do mention CC/FHC, the official company answer they get is "Sorry, I didn't write that book, but here's how it works in 6ed..." which implies (incorrectly) that CC/FHC are not 6ed and that there's a different set of rules they should be using instead...except those rules are out of print... 

I'll agree with this. I never did hear back from DOJ after I broached the subject of direct support for CC right after it released. Since I can't force DOJ to do anything, my solution is to try and give a reference to both books (since I have the luxury of owning both). I stop short of looking in FHC unless it's a Fantasy Hero question.

 

As for the issue, I mostly sit back and watch this argument get rehashed every time someone new comes to the forums asking a question. 

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Your response deserves a rebuttal, and you make some valid points, but as I said, I've been struggling with a bad cold for the past few days, and my mind is starting to get a little fluttery.  I hope you don't interpret a temporary disengagement as an insult, but for now, I will withdraw with the possibility to re-commit after I have had a little rest.

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IMO the issue is a much more narrow one: newcomers coming to the official Hero Games website with questions are unable to get official answers that reference the "current official" books they own, and if they do mention CC/FHC, the official company answer they get is "Sorry, I didn't write that book, but here's how it works in 6ed..." which implies (incorrectly) that CC/FHC are not 6ed and that there's a different set of rules they should be using instead...except those rules are out of print... 

I kind of feel that it only appears as though the issue is a narrow one because you are pointing to the tip of a larger iceberg underneath the surface. The only reason newcomers encounter the "narrow issue" at all is because there is ambiguity over what the "6th edition rules" actually are, which is almost a question of (product) ideology.

 

By taking a definitive stand with regard to what constitutes the official 6th edition rules (and by that I mean which books express those rules), all the other issues just sort of go away. Well, they do if the company decides that the Complete rules are the one and only official expression of the 6th edition rules and follow that up with exclusive support for only those rules/books (at least insofar as 6th edition is concerned).

 

I'm sure that to a highly experienced Hero System veteran, the differences between 6e1/6e2 and Complete seem trivial. Yet the confusion this situation causes in the "newcomer marketplace" is tangible and not at all insignificant to the newcomer. These aren't different editions (5th vs. 6th), or different product lines (Basic vs. Advanced). Rather, one is a minor release update of a previous release of the same major product version. And the code runs differently in some cases, so to speak. Maybe not in a lot of cases, but the mere fact that the code can behave differently at all poses support (and marketing) problems that would be solved by simply deprecating 6.0 in favor of 6.5. But in a definitive, unambiguous way.

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I just read the back blurbs of both Complete books - neither of them advertise themselves as the Complete Hero System.

 

Both state "The Hero System you know and love in a condensed and easy to use format."

 

Condensed. You don't condense something without either specializing it (which is what the Completes have started to do) and removing aspects of it (which is what the Completes did).

 

I don't think anyone is going to assume the much smaller Complete books are somehow the entire rule set, they're a condensed ruleset. Says so on the cover. Same rules, boiled down to the essentials needed for Superhero and Fantasy games respectively. This is almost exactly like a Basic vs Advanced or GURPS Fantasy/GURPS Supers vs GURPS 4E. And I still haven't found any basic rules changes between the two big books and either Complete. I've found some straight up Missing information (but then, they are condensed down) but no different information.

 

There is no 6.5 and until you find some very specific and exacting examples of true differences, you're talking nonsense.

 

Yeah, it'd be totally cool if Steve could also provide page references from the Complete books if possible to questions asked of him; but I figure it's gotta be a little tiring to see a question about a rule he already wrote an answer for but, you know, the rules had to be condensed down pretty far. A little too far.

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"Longtime fans will appreciate the tight, concise new approach, presenting the full game system in a fraction of its former length."

 

Other language suggesting how self-contained and complete it is:

 

"Champions Complete includes everything superhero gamers need to play."

 

"Includes everything a gamemaster needs to create and run anything from a single session to an extended campaign for 1-6 players."

 

In my view, the back cover makes a pretty enthusiastic effort to convince a prospective buyer that it is the only book they will need in order to have access to the "full system" and everything they need to run full campaigns.

 

BTW, I only refer to Complete as 6.5 because it sort of has that informal label already anyway. Whenever the question of "When will we get a 7th edition?" comes up, everyone rightly points out that the Complete rules are likely the last version we'll ever get and the closest to a 7th edition we'll ever see. But given that it isn't sufficiently different from 6th to be called 7th, a reasonable compromise is to think of it as 6.5. Besides, I think that once you rip out entire concepts (Classes of MInd), you've gone beyond a trivial .1 modification, but that's strictly a matter of perspective which isn't really worth arguing over.

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Perhaps this was already answered elsewhere, but wasn't the big difference between Champions Complete and the 6e books just in how some of the powers are written up? If order of combat, how to roll to hit, how to take damage, etc is unchanged, it's the same rules set, right?

 

Are there differences in the game mechanics or is it just some power write-ups?

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Well, not quite. Look at the Complete Character Conversion document and judge for yourself. It's not so much that only a few things have changed, but the way those things changed involved concepts/mechanics removed or renamed or rearchitected. For someone already familiar with the system, these things are no big deal. Try to imagine how that looks to someone wholly unfamiliar with the Hero System.

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The only reason newcomers encounter the "narrow issue" at all is because there is ambiguity over what the "6th edition rules" actually are, which is almost a question of (product) ideology.

...

the mere fact that the code can behave differently at all poses support (and marketing) problems that would be solved by simply deprecating 6.0 in favor of 6.5. But in a definitive, unambiguous way.

If there were points where the rules were actively in conflict (ie - change in mechanics, different costs of powers, etc), that would be a problem. But as long as the two rules say essentially the same thing (one just says it shorter than the other), then I don't see any reason the answer can't be "they're both 6th Edition; either one works."

 

Besides, Hero Games has pretty unambiguously said CC/FHC is the current version of the rules that they are supporting.

This is almost exactly like a Basic vs Advanced or GURPS Fantasy/GURPS Supers vs GURPS 4E.

I kindof agree, but the confusion is that they haven't make that explicit. If they said "CC/FHC are the core rules, and if you like what you see here's the Advanced Rules Grognard Edition" that would eliminate most of the confusion.

 

But I feel like I've said the same thing 3 times now, so imma shut up over here. :)

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CC and FHC are the 6e Rules. AFAIK there is ONE rule or power that was changed slightly. Other than that one thing, CC is the whole rules minus a ton of examples. Hell when I have looked up rules in CC and then crosschecked 6e1&2 I find that the basic text of the rule is identical.

Some people seem to be under the impression that the Complete Volumes changed rules from 6e1 and 2. That isn't the case at all.

 

It would be nice to see some POD Options for 6e1 (Apparently 6e2 is still in stock with over 200 books in the warehouse). I know that there was some though that POD would be expensive as they wanted to release a Black and White POD option. Which would mean changing all of the artwork to Greyscale which is a chore that costs money. I know that there is now color POD, so that isn't an issue now (I bought Lords of Gossamer and Shadow POD from DTRPG in color). Someone who cares about this SHOULD ASK JASON about POD options for 6e1. There might be some hidden costs we don't know about as consumers that prevent DOJ from pursuing this.

I have my copies of the books, I bought them the moment they became available for preorder. I took the PDF's and printed them out on my Color Laser printer and had those bound, so I have 2 copies of both volumes. One a stunt version that can be abused somewhat, and one that sits on my shelf looking pretty.

 

The thing is that we can complain about Steve only answering questions about his volumns all we want. It won't change anything. Perhaps sending friendly emails detailing the issue to Jason might bring a solution to the problem, but we can't expect that he reads all of the threads here. I don't think that Jason can make Steve Do anything different from what he is already doing. He might be able to talk Derek or Mike into fielding system questions, but unless those guys volunteer for something that Steve does already (even though he won't reference the Complete version of 6e) I don't think that we will see anything change. In many ways Steve does answer questions in better depth than pretty much anyone here could, as he wrote the core of what was edited down to become CC and FHC.

YMMV. I am going to basically ignore this thread. It's not going anywhere but in circles.

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I don't think anyone is going to assume the much smaller Complete books are somehow the entire rule set, they're a condensed ruleset. Says so on the cover. Same rules, boiled down to the essentials needed for Superhero and Fantasy games respectively.

 

Given that gamers tend to want hardcopy materials and new/unused hardcopy only comes in the form of the 'much smaller Complete books' (as you termed them), what would a newcomer bought a new/unused hardcopy CC book on the store assume?  The title calls it 'complete'.  And new/unused hardcopy 6e books from which those rules were 'condensed' isn't available anymore.

 

​Remember:

YOU and I know the history ... may own 6th edition books ... but someone brand new to the game who bought the available hardcopy yesterday... doesn't.  All they have/know is what they could buy.  And if they come here asking questions they get 'official answers' that refer to pages in books that they don't have ... and can't buy.

 

 

CC and FHC are the 6e Rules. AFAIK there is ONE rule or power that was changed slightly. Other than that one thing, CC is the whole rules minus a ton of examples. Hell when I have looked up rules in CC and then crosschecked 6e1&2 I find that the basic text of the rule is identical.

 

Some people seem to be under the impression that the Complete Volumes changed rules from 6e1 and 2. That isn't the case at all.

 

You just contradicted yourself.  If there's even one rule/power change between the Complete volumes and 6e 1/2, then, very technically, the rules -did- change.

 

 

The thing is that we can complain about Steve only answering questions about his volumns all we want. It won't change anything.

 

...

 

YMMV. I am going to basically ignore this thread. It's not going anywhere but in circles.

 

​Again, you have mistaken constructive criticism ... for complaint.  (Why do you keep doing that, I wonder?)  You are, however, correct, that with attitudes such as yours on this matter ... nothing will change and no improvement is possible.  After all, ignoring problems that could use improvement doesn't make them go away ... or address them.  If Steve/Jason have your attitude on this matter, then it's clear they have no interest in taking constructive criticism on the matter ... or addressing problems of the types observed in this thread.

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​Again, you have mistaken constructive criticism ... for complaint.  (Why do you keep doing that, I wonder?)  You are, however, correct, that with attitudes such as yours on this matter ... nothing will change and no improvement is possible.  After all, ignoring problems that could use improvement doesn't make them go away ... or address them.  If Steve/Jason have your attitude on this matter, then it's clear they have no interest in taking constructive criticism on the matter ... or addressing problems of the types observed in this thread.

 

"Constructive criticism" threads about how Hero runs their business comes up in this forum on a regular basis.  After a while reading the same thing over and over again gets a bit old.

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Well, if the content of this thread has been repeated multiple times (in different ways) then perhaps there's something to it?  And perhaps if the issues were addressed, they would no longer come up?

​Put another way:

Your frustration with redundancy of thread content would probably be better aimed at the actual issues it identifies ... instead of threads/posts that are mere symptoms of those issues.

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Well, not quite. Look at the Complete Character Conversion document and judge for yourself. It's not so much that only a few things have changed, but the way those things changed involved concepts/mechanics removed or renamed or rearchitected. For someone already familiar with the system, these things are no big deal. Try to imagine how that looks to someone wholly unfamiliar with the Hero System.

Someone who isn't familiar with the past releases and comes into this using CC or FHC won't have an issue with those changes since they aren't trying to compare to anything else.

 

As a mostly self-supported community, we are as much to blame as DOJ for confusing people. (Ignore the DOJ part as I don't want another rehash.) For our part, everyone generally jumps in and answers without giving a moment's thought to what version/book the OP is using. Worse, when we do know what book, people still jump in talking about whatever one they use instead. Add in all of the house rules, etc. and the confusion can go through the roof.

 

Could DOJ do some things differently? Certainly. But you're picking nits over the differences between the 2-volume 6E and CC/FHC. When it comes to the health of Hero based on the community, we need to do our part and stop using every new member question as a pulpit to blast DOJ for sins against our favorite version. 

 

[steps down from pulpit]

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Well, if the content of this thread has been repeated multiple times (in different ways) then perhaps there's something to it?  And perhaps if the issues were addressed, they would no longer come up?

 

​Put another way:

Your frustration with redundancy of thread content would probably be better aimed at the actual issues it identifies ... instead of threads/posts that are mere symptoms of those issues.

 

The argument is ages old... and it's always semantics, to be honest. There will always be a portion of the group that thinks it's being done wrong, and a portion who thinks it's being done right, and a portion who just doesn't care. The specifics of the issues change from argument to argument but they always boil down to "you're doing it wrong, if you'd just listen to me!"

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I think a big thing we as gamers can do is to bring more people into tbe hobby.

 

I don't think a lot of people wake up one day and say "Hey I would like to play a tabletop role playing game because I heard it was cool..." and then head for the local gaming store and buy a game. 

 

And I will point everyone to Experiences teaching people Hero Game system thread

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The problem with 6ed 1 & 2 is that they were huge ass books, with a weird looking gold man on the cover.  They were expensive.  And they basically looked like the Encyclopedia Champstanica.  It was not new player friendly.  Hell, it wasn't even old player friendly.  Steve Long may be a great guy, but he's got a bad case of what Stephen King called "diarrhea of the typewriter".  6ed 1 & 2 were targeted at, well, basically us.  People who were already familiar with the system.  It was targeted towards 1% of 1% of 1% of people in the game store.

 

Champions Complete has a much more broad appeal.  There's a picture of people on the cover, doing stuff, with water and fire and costumes.  It's got an eye-catching cover.  The art inside it is pretty good.  And it's only 20 bucks, which is well within the discretionary spending of most people at the game store.  It's a lot easier to digest.

 

It's hard to write something that isn't targeted at yourself.  I've noticed this in the "Champions Begins" thread.  I suggested creating a "combat card" for each character, including only the info absolutely necessary for the game.  Does a player who is just starting to learn the game really need to know that Fire Girl can throw a 1 1/2 D6 punch?  Or that she has a 10 Ego if there are no mental powers in the adventure?  Anyway, people hated the idea.  I got a very strong negative response almost immediately.  Now just because I thought of it, that doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea.  But if we want to bring in new players, and not just target existing ones, then we need ideas and products that appeal to new players.  Since we're all experienced Hero players, we think in terms of what we want.

 

I was first drawn to Champions because of legends at my local game store.  This was in the mid '90s.  Some of the older guys would talk about this super-hero game that they used to play, but it wasn't available on the shelf.  And they told stories about how the game system let you build anything you wanted, and it was very convoluted and there were all these tricks and hidden secrets.  And if you really knew what you were doing, you could create these unholy powerful characters on your starting point value.  Games at this particular store were cutthroat, with players and gamemasters always scheming against each other.  It's like once the game started, everyone's alignment immediately shifted to Neutral Evil.  Anyway, Champions games were the ultimate manifestation of this, with people betraying their teammates, taking powers other people were vulnerable to (Kryptonite shoelaces came up more than once), things like that.  And to my powergamey 16 year old mind, this sounded awesome.  When I finally found a copy of the book, I read every inch of it and looked for every possible way to "win".  But most people probably don't get drawn into the game in that way.  It wouldn't appeal to me today.  I'm 20 years older and have significantly less free time to devote to things like that.

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Oh, and "wonderful detailed campaign setting" can be very useful.  It can attract a lot of players.  But creating one of those is easier said than done.  Much of the appeal of Champions is to allow people to play Marvel and DC characters.  The published campaign worlds are thus kept suitably generic, for fairly obvious reasons.  That's got a different appeal than the World of Darkness.  Since Hero was originally a 4 color superhero system, and I think functions best in that way, I question whether players are going to get really energized by a unique superhero world.

 

One of the big appeals of GURPS is that their books are very helpful, even if you're not playing GURPS.  Running a Roman Empire game?  There's a GURPS book for that.  Need info on how the economy worked in the middle ages?  The GURPS: Medieval Economic Practices.  They have tons of detailed info about every topic under the sun.  I've got no idea how the GURPS system even works, but I've been tempted to buy some of their supplements for use in other games.

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