Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Sketchpad]

For a Champions Starter Box, I'd like to see the following:

1. A simplified rulebook that explains dice resolution, combat, damage, movement and characteristics. 

2. A character book that includes 10-15 archetypes that are ready to play out of the box, or that can be customized a bit. Also, would have some barebones on experience and expenditure.

3. An adventure book that would contain 5 adventures and rules for rewards. This would also have 10 or so villains statted out.

4. A double-sided map with a few sheets of cardboard pawns (akin to the Pathfinder ones).

5. 10d6 that are "Hero Green" or "Hero Blue". Standard dice with pips, maybe like the smaller ones. 

6. A house ad for continuing the game using the Champions Complete book.

 

Everything would be in color on good stock, but not necessarily glossy paper. Each archetype would have an illustration, as would each villain. And there would be spot illustrations throughout. Many of the character pics would be translated to the pawns, with a few extra for each archetype to allow for customization. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The big problem with reprinting old adventures for the 6th edition, Hero/DOJ doesn't own all the characters anymore. You have to get the ok from the original author, he wants to be payed again (and should, because those characters are his), ect

 

 

That's kind of a minor concern, you just treat it like any published work: they get royalties from the sales.  Adventures don't make a lot of money, what they do is make a product look alive and supported, so it prompts people to buy the game books, which do make you money.  Only the GM needs the adventure, but everybody wants the rules.

 

But again, I wouldn't go nuts with the dice.  Not only do people tend to have a lot of d6 lying around, they're cheap to buy, and people usually use die apps anyway on their ubiquitous phones.  3d6 hero dice give people a taste of the official dice, and if they grow to like the game, they'll want more: and the dice are a premium, they aren't cheap, but are a visible advertiser.  They are moneymakers for the company and draw interest: what are those dice with the hex man?

[Ninja-Bear]

I had an ephiany. I'm going to (try) to build villains based on the templates that are in CC. The templates refer to builds in the books. I plan on setting them at 300/60 cp.

 

Also I'll try to refer to the characters already in CC.

[Tasha]

That is the conventional wisdom. But most of the current big rpgs are doing very well with them. The pathfinder line has 20+ and include figure stand ups and mao packs.

I think that the actual AP books are break even or loss leader. They are designed to drive sales of stuff like the supplement books that detail stuff in the AP(ie Core rulebooks, Regional and racial splatbooks) also accessories like the Pawns and Pathfinder Battles miniatures. So they are subsidized by the sales of the accessories.

[Lucius]

For GURPS but some ideas may apply

 

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?807345-What-would-help-you-try-GURPS

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Lucius is thinking of starting such a thread on RPG net for Hero

[Nolgroth]

Hero, please do not implement "Rungs per <timeframe>" when climbing a ladder. Please.

[jdounis]

I really love HERO and i consider it the best set of RPG rules out there by far, but there are some issues/rules that seem really weird and artificial in the system that prevent new players from having a soft landing

on the system.As pointed by members in various posts throughout the boards, things that are really trivial in other systems cause problems in HERO, I am writing some that caused problems/reactions from new players in my games:

A)Environmental Damage/Effects

B)Effects that affect objects/equipment(enchanting items etc.)

C) timing of effects  based on Character values (like i have greater SPD so i am drowning faster,burning faster)

D)Multiple attacks that automatically miss(Player:Why i miss with my offhand automatically if i miss with my good hand?)  

That seem so weird to a player coming from other systems that the first time i explain to them or using them they either laugh or look

at me with terror/sorrow/regret.

 

You can always say, "that is the GM for", "if you dont like it change it etc." "for the sake of balance". But for a system so concise and in-depth like HERO, those things

that come in play often and seem trivial to other systems should have a clear explanation and way to resolve them so they dont break the fourth wall

all the time...

 

I think there should be a new level of wrapping around such issues to avoid confusion or repelling people from loving the system.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I want to address your concerns because I think they are valid and deserve attention.

 

A)Environmental Damage/Effects

 

This is basically tied into C below; your speed is irrelevant in environmental damage as another thread went over so I just strongly suggest my house rule of giving environmental effects a speed of their own like DOT.  This fire is not as hot and burns slow, it only takes effect once every 4 segments.  This fire is awful, its once every 2.  That takes it out of the realm of personal speed and further gives the GM greater flexibility for specific effects.  Drowning is per turn in 6th edition so your personal speed means nothing.

 

B)Effects that affect objects/equipment(enchanting items etc.)

 

This is deliberately left vague so people can toolkit their own version.  There's no official "this is how you do it" in Hero, but specific campaigns should have it.

 

D)Multiple attacks that automatically miss(Player:Why i miss with my offhand automatically if i miss with my good hand?)

 

This is just a game mechanic/control issue that is an artifact of the multiple power attack structure.  The system allows infinite numbers of attacks, if you have high enough OCV, so the check against that is "once you miss, the attacks stop."

 

Instead of declaring x attacks at minus 2x then rolling until you miss and it stops, my house rule has been always -2 per attack, but adding for each attack. So its -2, -4, -6, -8 and eventually you just can't make that attack roll and stop attacking at that point.  That way it feels less like you were robbed of attacks (I tried to hit 5 times, but only hit 3 then the system forced me to stop!) and more like this just got so challenging I can't hit after a certain point.  

 

I also found that it made people more wiling to attempt multiple power attacks where as the old system was almost never used.  I mean, trying to hit 3 guys at -6 each is pretty pointless.

[Hyper-Man]

I really love HERO and i consider it the best set of RPG rules out there by far, but there are some issues/rules that seem really weird and artificial in the system that prevent new players from having a soft landing

on the system.As pointed by members in various posts throughout the boards, things that are really trivial in other systems cause problems in HERO, I am writing some that caused problems/reactions from new players in my games:

A)Environmental Damage/Effects

B)Effects that affect objects/equipment(enchanting items etc.)

C) timing of effects  based on Character values (like i have greater SPD so i am drowning faster,burning faster)

D)Multiple attacks that automatically miss(Player:Why i miss with my offhand automatically if i miss with my good hand?)  

That seem so weird to a player coming from other systems that the first time i explain to them or using them they either laugh or look

at me with terror/sorrow/regret.

 

You can always say, "that is the GM for", "if you dont like it change it etc." "for the sake of balance". But for a system so concise and in-depth like HERO, those things

that come in play often and seem trivial to other systems should have a clear explanation and way to resolve them so they dont break the fourth wall

all the time...

 

I think there should be a new level of wrapping around such issues to avoid confusion or repelling people from loving the system.

 

 

 

I want to address your concerns because I think they are valid and deserve attention.

 

 

This is basically tied into C below; your speed is irrelevant in environmental damage as another thread went over so I just strongly suggest my house rule of giving environmental effects a speed of their own like DOT.  This fire is not as hot and burns slow, it only takes effect once every 4 segments.  This fire is awful, its once every 2.  That takes it out of the realm of personal speed and further gives the GM greater flexibility for specific effects.  Drowning is per turn in 6th edition so your personal speed means nothing.

 

 

This is deliberately left vague so people can toolkit their own version.  There's no official "this is how you do it" in Hero, but specific campaigns should have it.

 

 

This is just a game mechanic/control issue that is an artifact of the multiple power attack structure.  The system allows infinite numbers of attacks, if you have high enough OCV, so the check against that is "once you miss, the attacks stop."

 

Instead of declaring x attacks at minus 2x then rolling until you miss and it stops, my house rule has been always -2 per attack, but adding for each attack. So its -2, -4, -6, -8 and eventually you just can't make that attack roll and stop attacking at that point.  That way it feels less like you were robbed of attacks (I tried to hit 5 times, but only hit 3 then the system forced me to stop!) and more like this just got so challenging I can't hit after a certain point.  

 

I also found that it made people more wiling to attempt multiple power attacks where as the old system was almost never used.  I mean, trying to hit 3 guys at -6 each is pretty pointless.

 

 

I'll play devil's advocate...

 

A)If characters want to act/interact at a faster SPD then they should react to it faster as well.  Character can always voluntarily lower their speed.

 

B)I agree that the 'official' enchantment method (differing modifiers) is one the most complex constructs in the system.  I have previously asked both Dan and Steve (when he was still officially 'Line Editor') to add more user friendly Hero Designer support and the answer was no because it was such a minor part of the system.  I disagreed, I think it was a self fulfilling prophecy for a tool that is essential for many fantasy games.

 

C)I would posit that 'missing' with one arm when attempting a 2 arm attack would throw off the attacker's balance due to not  getting the expected resistance. 

 

Sure, it's ultimately a game mechanical balance issue.  I'm not sure that providing free access to what is essentially the Autofire attack solves anything.  Heck, it may do a disservice to new players by making them believe that is the rule rather than a house-rule. If the goal is for new players to ultimately become new GM's then I think the sugarcoating needs to be kept to a minimum.

 

Of course, all of this ties into the idea that HERO needs fully functional games rather than just rules to create games.  And there are no easy answers to that problem besides a huge investment of capital in the company.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

If characters want to act/interact at a faster SPD then they should react to it faster as well.  Character can always voluntarily lower their speed.

 

 

Sure, and I think there are effects where that ought to be the metric (say, poison gas you breathe).  But the official rules as written and Steve Long's ruling is that you take environmental damage per segment rather than at your speed so, not really the issue here.

[indy523]

To misquote the wisdom of Forest Gump

 

Simple is as Simple Does?

 

I think that it is not that the market for gamers who like complex games has declined, rather I think it is the popularity of "geekdom" today made by shows like Big Bang Theory who have expanded the game beyond its starting base in the 1980s which was the gifted kids in the math club.

 

Now that geek is shiek some of the stoners and jocks are checking out the game so for them simpler is easier.  There very well maybe the same physical number of gamers that Hero's complexity appeals to as in the 1980's but that number is now a much smaller portion of market share.

 

And in all business even gaming market share leaders dominate and influence the market because they have more capital to flood the market with their own product and to advertize.  Those who are second fiddle will likewise imitate to stay competitive.

 

So because Simple gets more play than complex it feels like all gaming is heading that direction.  But that does not mean all of us want that.  Some changes are able to be made, Hero system did away with the figured statistics but asposters here point out the core of the game requires more work because it allows for more imagination.  The new Star Wars games are simple but there are really only so many characters one can actually make with that system  that are different from one another.

 

For old school gamer geeks like me who won Math awards in Jr. High Hero appeals more because I can do more with the game either as a GM or player.  If we are a smaller share of the market the question is, does the complexity have a niche in the market of gamers who don't get what Hero is selling from the general gaming market, that is large enough to exploit even though Hero's market share will never dominate the market.  If the answer is Yes then the goal is to find those gamers and appeal to them.

[Ninja-Bear]

Indy523 you have left out that some want simple do to time constraints. Some of us don't have time to fiddle fart around to make characters and tweak them when all you really want to do is play Again this goes to no out of the box game to play problem.

[Durzan Malakim]

In the enterprise software industry I work in, one of the key metrics we care about is "time to value." You can have the best software in the world, but if it takes you a year or more to see any benefits from it, you're going to lose in the market to those who provide a faster time to value. Hero might have a "time to value" problem where the "time to fun" is too high for new players and new GMs who've grown up playing genre-optimized games.

 

In my experience, learning the Hero system takes a lot of time. Some of the key concepts are the same from other games, such as you have characters that have statistics and you roll dice to determine game outcomes, but there are concepts unique to Hero such as building powers, knowing what all the power advantages and limitations do, and running combat from a speed chart. I really feel for new GMs because there are a lot of moving parts to juggle. You have to balance damage classes to provide challenges that aren't too easy and aren't too hard, determine penalties and bonuses for maneuvers and actions, and adjudicate whether a given advantage or limitation applies in a particular case. That's on top of developing an interesting story to engage your players.

 

Unless you have an engineering/design mind-set, learning to apply extensible rules can be more work than fun. While it's cool that you can reuse the same rules from your sword-and-sorcery-fantasy game in your super-heroic-justice game, sometimes all you care about are the rules that apply to your setting. That's why books like Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete exist after all - to make things easier for new players.

 

As a player, I find Champions Complete and Hero Designer really good resources, but even with my year and four months experience I'd feel overwhelmed trying to GM a Champions game much less GM another Hero genre. If I were to GM Hero I fear I would either have to constantly be looking up rules, which doesn't sound like fun, or making up my own to move the game ahead, which may not be fun for those players who actually know the rules and expect me to use them. Are there any GM's who actually learned Hero from Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero, or are we just surviving on GMs who learned from earlier editions? I hope there are such GMs, but I fear there aren't.

[zslane]

I agree with you Durzan. The Hero System (and Champions in particular) is not for everyone. It definitely appealed to my engineer brain when I first encountered it back in 1982. I absolutely fell in love with the system because it just made so much sense to me. I found it extremely easy to absorb and I spent all my time designing characters (instead of doing my college work).

 

However, I knew better than to try to GM the game. That was beyond me. I found it challenging enough to run just one superhero character (in combat) effectively. Trying to run an entire team of villains (plus agents) was more than I could manage.

 

That's why I think there really is no way to present the game so that it is ideal for any and every RPGer out there. IMO the architecture of the game just isn't suited to the casual player, not without castrating the game to the point where it barely resembles the Hero System anymore.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Are there any GM's who actually learned Hero from Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero, or are we just surviving on GMs who learned from earlier editions? I hope there are such GMs, but I fear there aren't.

 

 

I hope there are as well but I don't know.  I know that RPG playing is a bit of a dying hobby.  I know that Hero will only ever occupy a small niche of that hobby fan base.  I'm fine with that, but I want to make sure it survives and right now that's iffy.  There are a lot of cool games out there that basically stagnated, went out of print and vanished.  There are still people that play them, but they are for all intents and purposes dead.

 

There are ways to help with this but it means people on this board, actual fans and players have to put their money where their mouth is.  Not complaining or uttering concern but writing and publishing.  its never been easier or cheaper to publish a book than right now.  You -- I don't mean anyone in particular, I mean everyone who plays and loves Hero -- can offer excuses or you can do what it takes to help out your favorite hobby .  Which will it be?

[zslane]

I mean everyone who plays and loves Hero -- can offer excuses or you can do what it takes to help out your favorite hobby .  Which will it be?

 

For me, lacking the time or talent to "do what it takes" (what it would actually take) is not an excuse, it's a harsh reality. It takes a lot more than love and desire to help the situation.

[Chris Goodwin]

I hope there are as well but I don't know.  I know that RPG playing is a bit of a dying hobby.  I know that Hero will only ever occupy a small niche of that hobby fan base.  I'm fine with that, but I want to make sure it survives and right now that's iffy.  There are a lot of cool games out there that basically stagnated, went out of print and vanished.  There are still people that play them, but they are for all intents and purposes dead.

 

There are ways to help with this but it means people on this board, actual fans and players have to put their money where their mouth is.  Not complaining or uttering concern but writing and publishing.  its never been easier or cheaper to publish a book than right now.  You -- I don't mean anyone in particular, I mean everyone who plays and loves Hero -- can offer excuses or you can do what it takes to help out your favorite hobby .  Which will it be?

 

Between late 2015 and mid-2016 I bought the D&D 5e Starter Set and core books.  I got some friends into a D&D game, and via that sold at least two more Players Handbooks.  That was money that could have gone to Hero Games.  I put money there because I didn't have time and ability to create that stuff myself.  I got more use -- more actual gaming -- out of those products since April 2016 than I've gotten out of my entire Hero 5e and 6e collections.

 

We're told that adventures don't sell, but while it may not have propped up Wizards of the Coast's quarterly financials, that one boxed set sold at least five hardcover books, and made at least seven new D&D 5e players.  Currently, I'm trying to prepare to run a Champions game for that group, but one of the things I don't have is an adventure.  

 

So, I've got money.  Not a lot, but I've got enough to spend on a few gaming products a year.  I'm willing to put it where my mouth is.  The people who could really use that money aren't making the products that I could buy and use to create more Hero gamers, is all. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

For the record, it takes me years to get a book out sometimes.  The idea that you have to have enough time to write something in one sitting or you can't get it done is simply not true.  I bet you all could get more done than you think if you'd just try.

[mrinku]

I'm actually starting to wonder if what Champions (as opposed to HERO) needs is something like "Third Edition Revised".

 

I pulled out 3e, Champions II and Champions III last night to check some stuff and it did strike me that it was far easier to grasp it all in that edition than later ones (I can't speak for 1e or 2e, but I've never heard anyone complain that 3e "broke" 2e, and Champions II is actually a 2e supplement...)

 

Take the 3e rules as core. Integrate the best bits of CII and CIII (most of which are actually in CII). Judiciously add in powers and concepts from later editions, especially a lot of the adders (6e Stretching is far superior to 3e Stretching, for example, but would not confuse a 3e player). Discard such concepts as "real weapons" and get back to "guns are RKA foci powers".

 

*Maybe* include Perks, though they really could be split into Skills and Powers. Some abilities have bounced around between Skill, Perk and Power lists over the years anyway. Don't go generic - stick to superheroes!

 

People can always add stuff, and genre books can always add optional rules.

[zslane]

I pulled out 3e, Champions II and Champions III last night to check some stuff and it did strike me that it was far easier to grasp it all in that edition than later ones (I can't speak for 1e or 2e, but I've never heard anyone complain that 3e "broke" 2e, and Champions II is actually a 2e supplement...)

 

The presentation got more professional-looking from 1e to 3e, but the very straightforward approach to the system did not change much in that time. Nor did it really change in 4e. That edition delivered architectural changes more than anything else (making everything "universal"). The dedication to simple, easy-to-follow presentation remained. It wasn't until 5e that the core rule book exploded in size, the font got smaller, and every conceivable bit of space on the page was crammed with stuff. Power write-ups began to suffer from Over-specification Syndrome, and by the time 6e came out, the game became impossible for any newbie to digest (in my estimation).

[mrinku]

Yeah. That's why I'd liberally borrow some stuff from 4e HERO (not all of it) in making a 3eRevised. But the over detailed approach started with the Champions/HERO mashup in 4e.

 

The older way of doing Martial Arts by making the cost based on STR, for example, had a nice feel to it and was really all a superhero game needed. We certainly didn't find it a bad way of building Martial Artist characters.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree that a stripped down, simplified option for martial arts would be a nice idea, just some OCV and DCV and damage bonuses, that's all you need.  Martial arts: costs x points for each +1 DC and +1 OCV, +1 DCV with a cap, something really simple.  Use ordinary maneuvers for combat.  I mean its superheroes, not ninjas.  Definitely have ordinary martial arts available for those who want to use it, but smiple for those who do not.

[zslane]

The way I see it, the 4e "Build Your Own Martial Arts" concept was merely the logical application of the Hero System's "building block" architecture to another sub-system. We also have things like Package Deals because of this design ethos. It makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure what is so complicated about it, especially if you have a bunch of them pre-made for you (like they were in 4e). I mean, how do you do things like Nerve Strikes and so forth if you don't allow for a more diverse set of effects in your Martial Arts package?

[mrinku]

The way I see it, the 4e "Build Your Own Martial Arts" concept was merely the logical application of the Hero System's "building block" architecture to another sub-system. We also have things like Package Deals because of this design ethos. It makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure what is so complicated about it, especially if you have a bunch of them pre-made for you (like they were in 4e). I mean, how do you do things like Nerve Strikes and so forth if you don't allow for a more diverse set of effects in your Martial Arts package?

 

In 3e Champions? NND powers. Keeping in mind these are superhero martial artists like Iron Fist or Batman, not action film ones like Bruce Lee.

 

Don't get me wrong - for general HERO I love the 4e Martial Arts, which basically comes from 3e Danger International. I used the DI rules to make a Sumo character myself. And Ninja Hero is one of the best sourcebooks of any edition. I was just saying that the previous way of doing it was quick, easy and had a built in reason as to why Superman doesn't use Kryptonian Karate.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well like I said: if you want to use the full martial arts that should be there too, but a more simplified version for ease of play - a silver age version of martial arts, say - is a neat idea, too.  Maybe just a damage bonus: I'm using martial arts now.  That's how it was for the first 3 editions (multiples of strength damage).  Something to put into the hopper for a Golden Age campaign book perhaps.