Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Lord Liaden]

Wasn't the "Generic Comic-Book Martial Arts" package of Maneuvers listed in 4E meant to represent the older Champions martial art "style?" If you want MA simplified, just have every martial artist buy those.

[Hyper-Man]

Wasn't the "Generic Comic-Book Martial Arts" package of Maneuvers listed in 4E meant to represent the older Champions martial art "style?" If you want MA simplified, just have every martial artist buy those.

 

I'm pretty sure the same style maneuvers exist in the 5e UMA and 6e Martial Arts books.

 

HM

[mrinku]

Wasn't the "Generic Comic-Book Martial Arts" package of Maneuvers listed in 4E meant to represent the older Champions martial art "style?" If you want MA simplified, just have every martial artist buy those.

 

Sure, but the old "Martial arts costs your STR for those extra maneuvers" had a nice effect in limiting super strength kung fu without having to actually apply limits. You could do it, but it was quite cost prohibitive and Martial Artist types typically kept their STR in the 15-30 range. 

[zslane]

I think that made sense back when Martial Arts attacks produced a multiple of your STR damage, but not anymore.

[assault]

1-3e Martial Arts costs were balanced against other ways of doing damage.

 

Someone whose STR + points in Martial Arts adds up to, say, 40, will do the same amount of damage with an Martial Kick (Offensive Strike) as someone with a 40 Str, or 40 points in Energy Blast.

 

The differences are in areas like Endurance cost, OCV/DCV mods, figured characteristics, range etc.

 

A super-strong martial artist, with, say 60 Str and 60 points of Martial Arts, would be able to do damage equivalent to someone with 120 Str. Unsurprisingly, the point costs were the same.

[mrinku]

 

The differences are in areas like Endurance cost, OCV/DCV mods, figured characteristics, range etc.

 

 

Two of the major differences (which are still the case, really) were less Knockback for the Martial Artist and more lifting power for the Brick.

[assault]

Two of the major differences (which are still the case, really) were less Knockback for the Martial Artist and more lifting power for the Brick.

 

Hence the "etc".

 

Leaping was another one.

 

Either way, they were still pretty well balanced.

[Doc Democracy]

This all comes back to folk treating the HERO System as if it is a game rather than a system. The obvious solution is for genre books to actually have a game build in it, something that could be played out the box but has options for people that want to tinker.

 

It is a barrier to play when you either have to balance it or even feel you have to. It is a barrier if you have to think about options to allow or disallow. It is a barrier if you have to think about limits on powers or feel you have to.

 

Those barriers remain barriers until you are confident enough to tinker, then they become features.

 

The system does not need to much detail, it would probably take up about a third of the space a genre book usually comprises.

 

Can you imagine JI reprinted as the front section of Pulp HERO?

 

Doc

[zslane]

The obvious solution is for genre books to actually have a game build in it, something that could be played out the box but has options for people that want to tinker.

 

I kind of see it the same way, and I think a bunch of folks here do too. I strongly feel the Hero System needs to stop dicking around with genre books and start offering campaign settings. A campaign setting is the most effective delivery mechanism for a full game experience. I don't see any downside to taking an approach which fully recognizes that setting is king. Hardcore DIYers can safely ignore any pre-built campaign setting if they choose, though they may find such things abundant sources of ideas. Newbies and casual players would greatly benefit from not having to DET (do everything themselves).

 

For instance, Vampire: the Masquerade was a game; the system was the Storyteller System. In effect, VtM was "Vampire, powered by the Storyteller System," and it was the first installment (i.e., product line) of a larger campaign setting called the World of Darkness. Each product line stood on its own, providing enough of a campaign setting of its own that it felt like a complete game. You didn't have to play Garou beyond their struggles with the Wyrm, but if you chose to, you could have them mixing it up with mages and vampires and getting involved with their struggles. So you had a system, upon which were built individual games, each with its own dedicated campaign setting, but which also fit as a piece in a larger overall game world. That's how you do it, IMO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm fine with the genre books, I just thing we have enough and we need settings in those genres now.  Hero needs the tools first, but the games as well.

[zslane]

I'm fine with the genre books, I just thing we have enough and we need settings in those genres now.  Hero needs the tools first, but the games as well.

 

Agreed. Hero has the tools already. It needs the games, and by games I mean campaign worlds with epic adventure plots that put those tools to use in a concrete, genre-specific, setting-specific way.

[Brian Stanfield]

I'm fine with the genre books, I just thing we have enough and we need settings in those genres now.  Hero needs the tools first, but the games as well.

 

 

 

Agreed. Hero has the tools already. It needs the games, and by games I mean campaign worlds with epic adventure plots that put those tools to use in a concrete, genre-specific, setting-specific way.

I've been going back and reading the older games like Juctice, Inc. and am just amazed all over again at how good they were. Of course, it was a product of Aaron Allston, so it shouldn't be surprising. We need more games like that!

 

So, what are the actual logistics of doing it in terms of licensing? I mean, I could produce a stripped down version of Fantasy Hero, and we had a very lively discussion about that earlier this year ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94641-problems-with-fantasy-hero-complete-and-newbies/ ). So what if I wrote a 90 page book of simplified rules, character design, equipment and spells, with an entire campaign world sketched out with half a dozen seeder adventures, and put it in a basic box? Could I actually get DOJ to publish it? Would they even want something that would basically be competing with Fantasy Hero Complete?

 

In my mind it would include references to the core books and/or FHC, and act as a way to introduce the toolbox idea while also giving a game to jump into right away. Hopefully curiosity on how to expand the rule set, character creation, etc. would lead to learning the core rules, but this wouldn't be essential right away. It would be easy to create a supplemental campaign book with more adventures, etc., built on this starting point. Again, just look at Justice, Inc. for the perfect model.

 

Now, perhaps a Fantasy Hero Basic, or a Champions Basic ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92795-champions-begins-the-gm-starter-pack/?hl=%2Bchampions+%2Bbasic ) would be a conflict of interest. But High Rock Press announced plans for updating Danger International, so maybe this is the model to follow. Perhaps it's time to bring Pulp Hero/ Justice, Inc. to 6e? There'd be no conflict of interest, and it may actually serve to show whether these ideas will work. But in all honesty, what are the odds of getting DOJ to back a project like this? Or even to allow someone to do it independently, billed as a gamed "built with HERO System."

 

I know, the usual answer is, "zero chance." What if they didn't have to pay for it? What if Kickstarter funded it?

 

I'm just spitballing here, but I'm seriously considering what it would take to reach a tipping point on a project like this.

[zslane]

First, I wouldn't call it Fantasy Hero Basic or anything with a generic name in it like that. Give it a title that corresponds to the campaign setting in some way. You know, like Monster Hunters, International. And rather than thinking only in terms of a single, starter set, think in terms of an entire product line. The Hero System has too many standalone products and not enough product lines that give buyers a sense that they are investing in a campaign setting with a future.

 

Secondly, my understanding is that obtaining a license to use the Hero System as the basis of a new product is easy to obtain and cheap, if not completely free. Just reach out to Jason. However, I think at this point you are on your own when it comes to publishing it. Hero Games is in no position to publish anything anymore. You might find another publishing partner, like RPGNow or something, but I feel you are probably better off just running it POD yourself.

 

As for funding, well, you could run it as a Kickstarter campaign I suppose. Others do that all the time around here. However, you will need to brush up on how to execute one successfully. It takes a lot of effort to launch a KS campaign that will actually reach its funding goal, and most people aren't prepared to do all the necessary work (providing copious sample art, doing promotional videos, defining appealing stretch goals, etc.). You may have more success just doing the project on your own, finding artists willing to work on a % of the profits instead of being paid up-front, and then sell it through a POD service like Lulu (who can make it available to Amazon for you, as an option). Sweat equity has funded many successful endeavors over the centuries.

[Brian Stanfield]

First, I wouldn't call it Fantasy Hero Basic or anything with a generic name in it like that. Give it a title that corresponds to the campaign setting in some way. You know, like Monster Hunters, International. And rather than thinking only in terms of a single, starter set, think in terms of an entire product line. The Hero System has too many standalone products and not enough product lines that give buyers a sense that they are investing in a campaign setting with a future.

Good point. We've all been talking about generic starter projects for so long, it's hard to shift my point of view. So you're suggesting something along the lines of Turakian Age, or Hudson City but with the rules included so it is a self-contained game, setting, and adventures, right? Justice, Inc. is an older example, but Monster Hunters International is another great example.

 

As for funding, well, you could run it as a Kickstarter campaign I suppose. Others do that all the time around here. However, you will need to brush up on how to execute one successfully. It takes a lot of effort to launch a KS campaign that will actually reach its funding goal, and most people aren't prepared to do all the necessary work (providing copious sample art, doing promotional videos, defining appealing stretch goals, etc.). You may have more success just doing the project on your own, finding artists willing to work on a % of the profits instead of being paid up-front, and then sell it through a POD service like Lulu (who can make it available to Amazon for you, as an option). Sweat equity has funded many successful endeavors over the centuries.

You're probably right about this. I suppose I really need to just start writing and getting something together and then find partners to get it produced. That seems to be how it worked in the old days , if I'm not mistaken.

[zslane]

If you are capable of writing on a regular schedule, you could also make chapters available to Patreon subscribers as you write them. It's old fashioned patronage in the Internet age.

 

As an aside, as much as I love Justice Inc. also, I feel I must point out that I think it is approximately what I'm talking about. There was quite a bit of the usual generic genre material buried in its pages; chapters devoted to explaining what a "pulp campaign" can be, descriptions of the sub-genres, etc. You can skip all that and just let the setting be a living demonstration of the genre feel the players are going to get from it. And you don't need to provide a history lesson on the Roaring '20s. You only need enough background material to get the campaign setting off the ground and flying. The rest can be filled in by later supplements (eager players who can't wait will do it on their own anyway, so don't sweat it).

[Brian Stanfield]

So I've been thinking on this a little more. Let me go back to Justice, Inc. as a model. It has a rule book and a campaign book, so it actually follows the present model of core rules and separate setting/campaign book. It also includes adventures in the campaign book, which makes it so easy to learn and play out of the box. Other adventures and genre books were also produced, and they depended on the original rule book, pretty much like what we have in today's arrangement.

 

So what do we do if there are several people writing different campaign books and adventures for the same rule set? Let's say several different fantasy settings with campaigns and adventures. Wouldn't it be better if they all used the same core rules, like Fantasy Hero Complete, didn't have to re-write the rules, and could move on to writing adventures instead? What we need are adventures to fit in with existing settings, not a whole new project built from the ground up. Adventures for Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, Narosia, and so on don't require a rehash of the rules.

 

I bring this up because of what you said:

First, I wouldn't call it Fantasy Hero Basic or anything with a generic name in it like that. Give it a title that corresponds to the campaign setting in some way. You know, like Monster Hunters, International. And rather than thinking only in terms of a single, starter set, think in terms of an entire product line. The Hero System has too many standalone products and not enough product lines that give buyers a sense that they are investing in a campaign setting with a future.

Monster Hunters International isn't all that different from the fantasy settings, it just presents the rules and character creation as well. Valdorian Age doesn't need to do that if the rules are already available. Would it be an improvement to create a separate complete game called Valdorian Age, which is different from Turakian Age: The Game, etc.? Couldn't they just say "this particular setting interprets the core rules in this way, which is different from how the other settings interpret the rules.?"

 

That brings us back to the problem of people having to learn the rules before the setting. It allows for multiple settings, but it's also an overload of generic rules. So maybe there should be a Fantasy Hero Basic with the simplified rule book and campaign book with adventures, with lots of references for how to expand the rules as they get comfortable with the basics, and suggest ways to expand the setting or where to find other settings. Champions Basic could do the same thing, with references to Champions Universe to expand future campaigns.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is this: Justice, Inc. is really a basic rule book with more supplements to keep it going. It's HERO Basic written for its genre at the time, in the same way I'm picturing Champions Basic or Fantasy Hero Basic, or an updated Pulp Hero Basic. Brief basic core rules with supplements to make them usable right out of the box. And yes, I think the box does matter. I don't have my box for Justice, Inc. anymore so I don't remember all that came in it, but a box nowadays, in my mind, would have simplified rules, a campaign book, character sheets, an advertisement for other HERO products that could supplement it, maybe even some dice so new folks don't have to go raid their Risk box for dice.

 

I think we need both approaches going on. We need campaign/adventure books for the existing genres in the existing rule sets. They don't need to be separate games, made with HERO, as much as they have to be clear focuses on which rules are relevant and which aren't. Fantasy Hero Complete and Champions Complete almost do this, but they are still campaign-neutral. Fantast Hero Complete actually does provide a setting and adventures as extras, so it comes closer to providing a model, even if it is still a little bit general. New campaign books would have to make choices on magic, equipment use, etc., used in their respective settings. But if there are multiple Champions campaign books, isn't it better that they all point to the same core rules, despite their generality, rather than rewrite the rules with each new game/setting/campaign book that comes out?

 

It's not a bad idea to have simpler "play in one night" games as well, more like you describe, but without the need for duplication. I don't mean to rehash past conversations in this thread. I'm jus thinking out loud.

 

And at length. Sorry....

[zslane]

Wouldn't it be better if they all used the same core rules, like Fantasy Hero Complete, didn't have to re-write the rules, and could move on to writing adventures instead? What we need are adventures to fit in with existing settings, not a whole new project built from the ground up.

It is difficult for me to agree with the above at this stage. Yes, I think that having the core system described in its own reference volume is a good idea. But I feel we already have that: 6e1/6e2. Sure, they could stand to be completely re-written (with the same approach towards streamlining that the Complete books have taken), but the essential idea behind them is sound and doesn't otherwise need to be repeated.

 

What we need now in order to draw in new players who are largely casual players--and not interested in or willing to digest 200 pages of system rules before experiencing the game--is a product line that is designed around a campaign setting. Even down to re-presenting the core rules, or at least that portion necessary to allow for quick out-of-the-box play right in the core setting book, just like MHI.

 

It is unnecessary to appeal to the existing customer base. That doesn't help draw in new players one iota. A whole new approach is necessary in order to breath new life into the brand (and the system). No more of this generic naming crap (Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero, Star Hero). We need to start naming product lines after their settings. But first we need the settings. New ones. The old ones have no marketplace traction.

[Brian Stanfield]

It is unnecessary to appeal to the existing customer base. That doesn't help draw in new players one iota. A whole new approach is necessary in order to breath new life into the brand (and the system). No more of this generic naming crap (Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero, Star Hero). We need to start naming product lines after their settings. But first we need the settings. New ones. The old ones have no marketplace traction.

Agreed! I'm not so worried about he generic names as reference books, and I'm perfectly happy with 6e1&2 as the core rule set. The Complete books are half measures, and I'm not really sure they're solving anything. They are even causing a little bit of confusion about some slight rules differences. When I need to check the rules, I go straight for the big books because I know the answer is in there.

 

I mentioned some of the settings as examples, but I also agree with you that it's all pretty tired. But Monster Hunters International is a standalone product with no other genre crossover in 6e. I guess is could be considered an example of Urban Fantasy Hero, updated for 6e. But what I'm curious about is this: I love the way MHI is complete in itself, but does that need to be done for every product created? Fantasy has so many campaign settings, so we have to create a separate game for each one? I guess it's really not a problem, in the big picture, if they all agree with the 6e1&2 core rules, but it seems like a lot of duplication. I almost said unnecessary duplication, but I guess that's precisely what's in question: is it unnecessary, or is it precisely necessary? 

 

One other point: Generic names don't seem to ward people away. Dungeons & Dragons is as generic a name as you can get, but they have so many support materials nobody cares. 5e is far from unified, but they have such great campaign books it hardly matters. The rule set is consistent across them. I think that it's the artwork and presentation that gets people to buy stuff, in all honesty. HERO stuff looks so amateurish that I'm sure people look right over it. I remember looking at the original Champions and thinking it looked like someone printed it in their basement (which is actually pretty accurate). But every edition afterwards has suffered the same problem, even as they got big and flashy in 5e and 6e. The full color stuff is catchy, but the quality is more important than the color. I love the new Strike Force book, for example, and it's big and colorful, but it looks like drawings I did in high school, and people will be turned off by that. Bad artwork is worse than no artwork, as far as I'm concerned. And yes, people do judge a book by its cover. If I ever do my project, I'm going to shell out some money for some good artwork! After I win the lottery . . .

[Nolgroth]

...I think that it's the artwork and presentation that gets people to buy stuff, in all honesty. HERO stuff looks so amateurish that I'm sure people look right over it. I remember looking at the original Champions and thinking it looked like someone printed it in their basement (which is actually pretty accurate). But every edition afterwards has suffered the same problem, even as they got big and flashy in 5e and 6e. The full color stuff is catchy, but the quality is more important than the color. I love the new Strike Force book, for example, and it's big and colorful, but it looks like drawings I did in high school, and people will be turned off by that. Bad artwork is worse than no artwork, as far as I'm concerned. And yes, people do judge a book by its cover. If I ever do my project, I'm going to shell out some money for some good artwork! After I win the lottery . . .

 

This. I know artwork is expensive. I know finding good artists is difficult. It is a sad fact that Hero is not a brand that the gaming community at large loves so much that they will accept a "amateurish" (to borrow your phrase) presentation just to get the rules. It is rather the opposite. That's why Champions: The New Millennium was such a memorable product to me. It still had issues with typesetting and editing, but it immediately drew the audience into the world with a combination of a comic book story and a near montage of the world's history presented by newspaper clippings and such. It was brilliant.  You can hate on the Fuzion* rules all you want to or dislike the Image-esque setting presented but Champions the New Millennium was just plain more interesting to read. It's a lesson that Hero Games could have taken from to create their own books.

 

*And the splitting of character creation rules over three books didn't help.

[zslane]

I mentioned some of the settings as examples, but I also agree with you that it's all pretty tired. But Monster Hunters International is a standalone product with no other genre crossover in 6e. I guess is could be considered an example of Urban Fantasy Hero, updated for 6e. But what I'm curious about is this: I love the way MHI is complete in itself, but does that need to be done for every product created? Fantasy has so many campaign settings, so we have to create a separate game for each one? I guess it's really not a problem, in the big picture, if they all agree with the 6e1&2 core rules, but it seems like a lot of duplication. I almost said unnecessary duplication, but I guess that's precisely what's in question: is it unnecessary, or is it precisely necessary?

 

One other point: Generic names don't seem to ward people away. Dungeons & Dragons is as generic a name as you can get, but they have so many support materials nobody cares. 5e is far from unified, but they have such great campaign books it hardly matters. The rule set is consistent across them.

 

From an architectural perspective, no, you don't have to structure a product line the way MHI does. However, for marketplace success today I believe you really need to. I agree with others here who believe that most players today want to buy a game, not a system. So we need to package things up that way. Yes, it is a throwback to the pre-4e days, but only in terms of product structure, not rules mechanics. The system is still the 6e Hero System underneath it all (and there should always be the core rules available as a separate item/product for those who want or need it). Most new players who would be introduced to the Hero System in this manner would most likely never drift off into some other genre, and might never buy into any other Hero System product line, and so we really do need the duplication, and we really do need to make sure that the product line (i.e., campaign setting) we get them to invest in is as comprehensive and complete/standalone as we can make it. And we need to make sure that it is rich enough and deep enough to keep customers buried in product for years to come.

 

Anyone is free to disagree and argue otherwise, but I predict (as I've been predicting for years now) that in the absence of the approach I describe, the Hero System's presence in the hobby/marketplace will continue to dwindle until it barely exists at all anymore. Everything I've ever seen talked about around here (in terms of projects to help the brand get out of its moribund state) amounts to little more than half-measures (and usually not even half of a measure, to be honest), which will not help. It is not like a little bit of good stuff will help a little bit; no, there is a (fairly high) threshold that a product line must pass before it will have any meaningful impact on the health and future of the Hero System brand, and nothing I've seen proposed in the past several years will exceed that threshold. In effect, not doing enough is exactly equivalent to doing nothing at all.

 

Re: Dungeons & Dragons -- It is fruitless, I believe, to ever make comparisons with D&D because they enjoy the luxury of being the single most recognized name in the hobby. D&D can structure itself however it wants and it will sell. A brand like the Hero System can not. But even D&D has always tended to put Greyhawk into the core rulebooks as the de facto default campaign setting (where do you suppose all those spell names comes from?). It has been a good strategy for making it playable right out of the box, but I have always felt that was a half measure that weakened the game presentation overall. They should either go all-in, like the Star Wars RPGs do, or step away and completely separate core rules from setting, the way the Hero System traditionally has (since 4e). These in-between products are weaker, in my view, by not establishing a stronger architectural identity. But like I said, D&D can get away with it because, well, it is D&D. They are largely immune from the consequences of poor design or packaging decisions. There is no greater proof of this than the fact that D&D 4e didn't kill the brand...

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think instead of debating what other people should or Hero ought to do, we should be talking about what we are doing and how we're producing material.  I want to encourage everyone here with strong ideas on what could and should be done to put the keyboard to that purpose.  Don't just talk about it here: make it happen.  You have the power, you have the interest, you have the vision.  Make it so.

[Chris Goodwin]

It is difficult for me to agree with the above at this stage. Yes, I think that having the core system described in its own reference volume is a good idea. But I feel we already have that: 6e1/6e2. Sure, they could stand to be completely re-written (with the same approach towards streamlining that the Complete books have taken), but the essential idea behind them is sound and doesn't otherwise need to be repeated.

 

What we need now in order to draw in new players who are largely casual players--and not interested in or willing to digest 200 pages of system rules before experiencing the game--is a product line that is designed around a campaign setting. Even down to re-presenting the core rules, or at least that portion necessary to allow for quick out-of-the-box play right in the core setting book, just like MHI.

 

It is unnecessary to appeal to the existing customer base. That doesn't help draw in new players one iota. A whole new approach is necessary in order to breath new life into the brand (and the system). No more of this generic naming crap (Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero, Star Hero). We need to start naming product lines after their settings. But first we need the settings. New ones. The old ones have no marketplace traction.

 

If I buy a campaign setting, I still need adventures, unless the setting includes some basic ones.  Adventures can outline or refer to a setting, the way WotC's Forgotten Realms adventures do, but I can buy an adventure and be playing as soon as PCs are ready.

[Chris Goodwin]

I think instead of debating what other people should or Hero ought to do, we should be talking about what we are doing and how we're producing material.  I want to encourage everyone here with strong ideas on what could and should be done to put the keyboard to that purpose.  Don't just talk about it here: make it happen.  You have the power, you have the interest, you have the vision.  Make it so.

 

I have a wife and a teenaged son and a job and a house, which means an occasional $20 to throw at gaming purchases, but nothing at all resembling the time and space to write my own material.  

[Spence]

It is difficult for me to agree with the above at this stage. Yes, I think that having the core system described in its own reference volume is a good idea. But I feel we already have that: 6e1/6e2. Sure, they could stand to be completely re-written (with the same approach towards streamlining that the Complete books have taken), but the essential idea behind them is sound and doesn't otherwise need to be repeated.

 

What we need now in order to draw in new players who are largely casual players--and not interested in or willing to digest 200 pages of system rules before experiencing the game--is a product line that is designed around a campaign setting. Even down to re-presenting the core rules, or at least that portion necessary to allow for quick out-of-the-box play right in the core setting book, just like MHI.

 

It is unnecessary to appeal to the existing customer base. That doesn't help draw in new players one iota. A whole new approach is necessary in order to breath new life into the brand (and the system). No more of this generic naming crap (Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero, Star Hero). We need to start naming product lines after their settings. But first we need the settings. New ones. The old ones have no marketplace traction.

 

IMO the primary blindness that Hero gamers have is the almost physical inability to acknowledge that Heroes Build Rules where characters, devices and so are built and the Hero Play Rules are two completely separate and divorced things.  Creating characters and building stuff is not in any way playing the game.    I agree with zslane that we have all the rules that Hero will ever need already.  And I also agree it is not a titling issue. 

 

What we need is a playable game.  I say game because we already have more supplements than you can shake a stick at to reference in building a custom home brew.  But nothing to play.   And yes I know that there are great location books masquerading as campaigns, but none of them can be run by a GM, cold with a half hour prep.  And yet the current powerhouses can be run with a half hour prep.  I've done it.

 

Looking at the High Fantasy type games.

Lets take D&D 5th, Pathfinder, 13th Age and Castles & Crusades.   These games have core rulebooks and put out expensive hard-backed adventure books regular as clockwork which literally disappear off the FLGS shelf weekly along with a never ending stream of core books.  We are not talking flimsy small booklets, but full sized hard-back adventures in the $30 to $50 range.  But the unending refrain is that they don't sell or are loss-leaders.  I propose that back in the 90's they may have been, but in the 2010's they appear to be quite profitable or they wouldn't be accounting for the high share of product actually selling.

 

Now lets look at their "unique" setting.  The use of "unique" should have you snorting coffee out your collective noses.  The only difference between the four games settings are the rule mechanics, world view/setting wise they are only different in cosmetic "please don't sue me" word games.   I use Pathfinder adventure and campaign material in D&D games all the time.  If you are only looking at the Core Books that clone like sameness is only amplified. 

 

The only reason to play any one rule systems over the other is game mechanic preference.  This very similarity is also one of their strengths allowing them to enjoy a building feedback cycle.   Get through watching LotRs and want to play an Elf?  Check, chargen complete in under 30 minutes.  Even the various flavored of magic casters can be built in 30 minutes or less. 

 

Where Fantasy Hero dropped the ball is that it does not include a a setting I can play.  Today.  It doesn't even have a complete magic system.  If they had included the core high fantasy races, the core "classes" and a completely realized and playable "pick off the menu" magic system plus a small but complete bestiary it would have been usable in the real world by real gamers. 

 

Why do Pathfinder players go to D&D 5th?  Or to C&C?  They run the same style adventures, but they still switch systems.  Why?  They like the "setting" but do not like the rule mechanics.  The majority of people I knew that played Pathfinder went to it because they hated D&D 4th's rules.  When D&D 5ht came out most, but not all, changed from PF to 5th.  Same style worlds, different mechanics. 

 

IMO what Fantasy Hero needs is to build D&D or Pathfinder Hero with the names filed off and downplaying the build part of the rules in favor of the playing part of the rules.   Once they have been playing for a while and suddenly have that epiphany that they can "custom build", it will be off and running.   Right now 99.9999999% of RPG gamers never even notice the tool kit because they never have a chance to play.

 

One other point: Generic names don't seem to ward people away. Dungeons & Dragons is as generic a name as you can get, but they have so many support materials nobody cares. 5e is far from unified, but they have such great campaign books it hardly matters. The rule set is consistent across them. I think that it's the artwork and presentation that gets people to buy stuff, in all honesty. HERO stuff looks so amateurish that I'm sure people look right over it. I remember looking at the original Champions and thinking it looked like someone printed it in their basement (which is actually pretty accurate). But every edition afterwards has suffered the same problem, even as they got big and flashy in 5e and 6e. The full color stuff is catchy, but the quality is more important than the color. I love the new Strike Force book, for example, and it's big and colorful, but it looks like drawings I did in high school, and people will be turned off by that. Bad artwork is worse than no artwork, as far as I'm concerned. And yes, people do judge a book by its cover. If I ever do my project, I'm going to shell out some money for some good artwork! After I win the lottery . . .

 

 

This. I know artwork is expensive. I know finding good artists is difficult. It is a sad fact that Hero is not a brand that the gaming community at large loves so much that they will accept a "amateurish" (to borrow your phrase) presentation just to get the rules.

 

@Brian & Nolgroth

 

For me art work is meh.  I prefer content or crunch for my money. 

 

BUT!

 

I think you are spot on about needing the books to use modern layout stays and relevant art.   When I compare Champions Complete (240 pages, $40), Mutants and Masterminds Heroes Handbook (232 pages, $32.95) and the Mutants and Masterminds Deluxe Heroes Handbook (317 pages hardback, $39.95) there is no contest on which one I would pick up.

 

 

 

If I buy a campaign setting, I still need adventures, unless the setting includes some basic ones.  Adventures can outline or refer to a setting, the way WotC's Forgotten Realms adventures do, but I can buy an adventure and be playing as soon as PCs are ready.

 

Exactly. 

Not to mention have you noticed that while those Adventures are in the Forgotten Realms, they are written in a way that nothing in the Forgotten Realms is necessary for the adventure?   They are stupidly easy to port to PF or C&C.  They are the perfect example of adventures for "generic" high fantasy. 

[mrinku]

As far as graphics go, Hero Games was among the MOST attractive RPG products of its day with 3e and 4e. The BBB even had cover art by George frikkin Perez! The interior art was top notch as well and layout good. 3e had largely new art commissioned for it from Denis Loubet, Mike Witherby and Pat Zircher (who would go on to be the main character illustrator through 3e and 4e). Mark Williams still pencilled the cover art (pretty much the last hurrah for the original Champions artist), but Mike Witherby inked it, and the difference shows.

 

(Actually, I'd rate 3e's graphic design quite well against any of the modern RPGs.)

 

There's also a certain irony with Spence's (accurate) analysis of the Fantasy games and why Fantasy Hero struggles, when you consider that M&M and other superhero games are basically old school Champions with different mechanics. Champions so dominated the genre throughout the 80's and 90's that it effectively became the "D&D of Superhero RPGs".

 

Typically, a Superhero RPG will provide:

 

Creating a Character 

Typical archetypes (which largely show how to make versions of copyrighted heroes without mentioning them by name)

List of Powers

List of Power modifiers

How combat works

Environmental dangers

Some sample heroes

Rogues gallery

Brief discussion about campaigning (which largely comes down to "use the comics as a baseline guide")

Short adventure (which traditionally starts with a bank robbery )

 

Certainly Mutants & Masterminds doesn't appear to offer anything different to 3rd Edition Champions in that regard. I've just read Paragons & Prowlers, which has some interesting ways of doing things, and it also conforms to everything mentioned above.