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Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net


phoenix240

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I hear what you're saying. But what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether people can currently buy 6e1/6e2. People did buy them in the past. Steve is willing to answer those people's questions. That is a good thing.

 

And it's an entirely different question than whether Hero Games should provide some sort of Q&A for Champions Complete and/or Fantasy Hero Complete.

 

As to it being confusing, I would expect people to be able to handle differentiating versions these days. If I go to a Samsung support forum, I have no problem with there being discussion of the Galaxy S7 even though I have an S6 (or vice versa). People encounter stuff like that all the time now.

 

 

Your Samsung comparison is not apples-to-apples because if you go to Samsung support you can get questions answered in official terms of each thing Samsung sells (where it's old and no longer sold ... or is still presently sold) -- but if you come here you can ONLY get questions answered in official terms for product that is no longer sold in hardcopy (i.e. 6e 1/2) -- and can't get official responses to those that are still for sale in hardcopy (i.e. Champions Complete).

 

When it comes to a discussion about the status of Hero System's heatlh, I believe it absolutely matters whether people can buy 6e 1/2 ... just as it matters whether or not people can get clarifying questions answered when it comes to what has been sold AND what is presently sold.  Personally, I think it speaks volumes about Hero System's health that you:

  • CANNOT get answers in terms of 5e clarifications (responses seem to come only in 6e form)
  • ​CANNOT get answers with references to the hardcopy that is presently sold, here (Champions Complete, for example)
  • CANNOT buy new/unused hardcopy of 6e 1/2
  • CANNOT easily/reliably POD 6e because 6e PDF's have no explicit statement within them allowing for POD

Those things add up to a scenario where bringing newcomers to the game is tough ... and where newcomers have problems getting clarifications to the rules ... assuming they can get their hands on the rules, themselves.

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Your Samsung comparison is not apples-to-apples because if you go to Samsung support you can get questions answered in official terms of each thing Samsung sells (where it's old and no longer sold ... or is still presently sold) -- but if you come here you can ONLY get questions answered in official terms for product that is no longer sold in hardcopy (i.e. 6e 1/2) -- and can't get official responses to those that are still for sale in hardcopy (i.e. Champions Complete).

 

When it comes to a discussion about the status of Hero System's heatlh, I believe it absolutely matters whether people can buy 6e 1/2 ... just as it matters whether or not people can get clarifying questions answered when it comes to what has been sold AND what is presently sold.  Personally, I think it speaks volumes about Hero System's health that you:

  • CANNOT get answers in terms of 5e clarifications (responses seem to come only in 6e form)
  • ​CANNOT get answers with references to the hardcopy that is presently sold, here (Champions Complete, for example)
  • CANNOT buy new/unused hardcopy of 6e 1/2
  • CANNOT easily/reliably POD 6e because 6e PDF's have no explicit statement within them allowing for POD

Those things add up to a scenario where bringing newcomers to the game is tough ... and where newcomers have problems getting clarifications to the rules ... assuming they can get their hands on the rules, themselves.

 

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes, so I'll just bow out of that aspect of the ongoing discussion.

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  • CANNOT easily/reliably POD 6e because 6e PDF's have no explicit statement within them allowing for POD

 

Insofar as obtaining personal POD copies of legally purchased PDFs go, you don't need explicit statements of permission from Hero Games. The U.S. Copyright Act provides all the legal permission you need.

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Your Samsung comparison is not apples-to-apples because if you go to Samsung support you can get questions answered in official terms of each thing Samsung sells (where it's old and no longer sold ... or is still presently sold) -- but if you come here you can ONLY get questions answered in official terms for product that is no longer sold in hardcopy (i.e. 6e 1/2) -- and can't get official responses to those that are still for sale in hardcopy (i.e. Champions Complete).

 

When it comes to a discussion about the status of Hero System's heatlh, I believe it absolutely matters whether people can buy 6e 1/2 ... just as it matters whether or not people can get clarifying questions answered when it comes to what has been sold AND what is presently sold.  Personally, I think it speaks volumes about Hero System's health that you:

  • CANNOT get answers in terms of 5e clarifications (responses seem to come only in 6e form)
  • ​CANNOT get answers with references to the hardcopy that is presently sold, here (Champions Complete, for example)
  • CANNOT buy new/unused hardcopy of 6e 1/2
  • CANNOT easily/reliably POD 6e because 6e PDF's have no explicit statement within them allowing for POD

Those things add up to a scenario where bringing newcomers to the game is tough ... and where newcomers have problems getting clarifications to the rules ... assuming they can get their hands on the rules, themselves.

 

And I can't go on WotC's boards and get answers to 4e and 3.x D&D either. 6e is the current edition. Jason has decided that the Complete Editions are the current edition. Steve comes here in a volunteer status (i.e. he's not a Hero Games Employee anymore) to answer questions about the edition he wrote (6e Bluebooks). I am sure that Derek and Mike would answer questions about their books if asked.

 

I agree that there should be POD options for 6e1 and 6e2, because there IS demand for the everything and the kitchen sink edition.

 

Perhaps you should go on the Company Questions and express an interest in being able to buy 6e1 and 6e2 as POD. Enough people expressing interest may get Jason to add those options to DriveThru RPG.

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6e is the current edition.

 

Please point me to new/unused hardcopy (not including POD) of 6e 1/2 that can be purchased, since it is the 'current' edition.  If you can do that, I will agree with the statement that it is the 'current' edition.  If however, you cannot do so, I think you need to rephrase your statement to say that "6e is an out of print edition" (i.e. not a 'current' one).

 

Steve answering questions using references to an 'out of print' edition is a self-obviating issue, I think.  If Jason has decided that the 'Complete' books entail the 'current' edition, then I think we need ruling clarifications that cite those instead of an 'out of print' edition ... if the 'health status' of Hero Systems is to be taken as anything other than 'on life support', that is.

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*sigh*

 

That Daniel Ream guy is like a breath of stale air, an unpleasant reminder of why I stopped talking about Hero System on rpg.net. 

 

Some people just hate. I cannot have any further conversation with him because he is convinced that he is right and stands upon his own, self-appointed lofty perch. The latest was the whole "reasoning from effect being inherently bad" comment. I am willing to state outright that Hero is in bad shape, but that doesn't translate into hatred of the system or the company.

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*sigh*

 

That Daniel Ream guy is like a breath of stale air, an unpleasant reminder of why I stopped talking about Hero System on rpg.net. 

 

 

He seems to be the exception; he has an established vehement dislike for effect-based systems  The attitude toward Hero System is much better than it used to be.  There is quite a bit of positive anticipation in response to the Strike Force Kickstarter, for example.

 

 

Regarding which version of the rules receives answers, part of the problem is all of the rules that are in 6e but not Champions Complete.  For example, there was a recent thread in which someone asked how you would create a Multipower with Charges on the reserve, in which one or more slots had Continuing Charges.  There's a specific rule for that in 6e, but it's such an unusual situation that it isn't in Champions Complete.  I answered the question by citing the pages in 6e and 5eR where the rule appeared.

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I would love to see Campaign books for Hero that include pregenerated everything. leaving players to buy powers from the defined menus that are included in the book. GM's that were interested in customizing stuff could find the fiddly writeups in a downloadable extra.

I agree most of the published settings have still left way too much work up to the GM. If you had a complex rules system with a lot of options that looks scary-complicated, but then you pick up an interesting setting that's done all the hard work for you, so you can just pick up and play without a ton of work, I think that would make it seem far less intimidating. But I think the (non-Champions) setting books have always been Hero's Achilles Heel in general. And let's be honest, part of that is on us as fans - as I understand it, most of Hero's non-Champions setting books haven't sold very well. The problem with a system that attracts people who like to roll their own, I suspect.

 

Currently everything is over complicted. Even Heroic settings have lists of weapons and abilities that are spelled out in unneeded minutiae. One thing we have been missing is KISS(Keep it simple stupid), we have been engulfed in fiddly rules

Agreed. I think the Complete books were a good course-correction in that regard; I'm not sure how much further I would've been willing to go in their shoes.

 

 And your feelings are echoed by allot of folks. The MHI author's part in the whole "Sad Puppies" thing also did not help. 

Yeah, I was willing to overlook the guy's politics, but after the whole "Ima take a dump in the Hugo punch bowl" MHI is dead to me.

 

As for a softcover version of 6e1, I have already proven it to be completely free of "issues"; I'm not sure what the value is in perpetuating that myth.

I'm betting Jason understands the economics involved pretty well, and if he thought they could recoup the costs of a print run - even limited edition B&W softcover - then I'm sure he'd be all over that.

 

My understanding of the legal & logistical issues with POD is minimal at best, but it seems like that would be a better way to go?

 

And I can't go on WotC's boards and get answers to 4e and 3.x D&D

Yes, but you can get answers to 5e questions. Imagine if you couldn't? Imagine if you had just picked up 5e, went to WOTC's website to ask a question, and the official company answer was "Sorry, I didn't write that book; in 4e it worked this way..."??

 

Please don't misunderstand: I'm hugely grateful that Steve volunteers his time to answer rules questions here, and I don't want to dismiss that. Steve's not the problem here.

 

But Surrealone has a point. When new players pick up CC or FHC - which Hero has said are the current "official" edition of the rules, and they come to the game's official website to ask questions in the Hero System 6th Edition Rules Questions" section of the official forum, and the official company answer* refers only to a previous edition of the rules - one that's out of print no less - that is a problem. Especially if we're serious about lowering the entry hurdles for new players.

 

* And yes, I know Steve is no longer "officially" a company man; but how are new players supposed to know that?

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I'm betting Jason understands the economics involved pretty well, and if he thought they could recoup the costs of a print run - even limited edition B&W softcover - then I'm sure he'd be all over that.

 

My understanding of the legal & logistical issues with POD is minimal at best, but it seems like that would be a better way to go?

 

You misunderstand me. I am only proposing that Hero Games (Jason) make the 6e1/6e2 PDFs available as POD products at a place like DriveThruRPG or RPGNow. That takes virtually no effort and zero up-front costs on Hero Games' part to put into action.

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I wish 6E1 and 6E2 were available as POD

I'd buy at least books, and have 8 players that would probably end up with full sets as well

 

I already own the hard covers, as well as champions complete and fantasy hero complete

When I am looking up hero, its the main books I go to

the Complete series is shelf material mostly

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How's the availability of 6e2 these days?  Have the channels sold through all of those as well? 

 

(Last year, I was kind of hoping that if 6e2 sold through, the POD option may come into play. I can see not doing POD if your channel partners are still trying to sell their remaining stock.)

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Please point me to new/unused hardcopy (not including POD) of 6e 1/2 that can be purchased, since it is the 'current' edition.  If you can do that, I will agree with the statement that it is the 'current' edition.  If however, you cannot do so, I think you need to rephrase your statement to say that "6e is an out of print edition" (i.e. not a 'current' one).

 

Steve answering questions using references to an 'out of print' edition is a self-obviating issue, I think.  If Jason has decided that the 'Complete' books entail the 'current' edition, then I think we need ruling clarifications that cite those instead of an 'out of print' edition ... if the 'health status' of Hero Systems is to be taken as anything other than 'on life support', that is.

 

Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete are 6e Rulebooks. They are the 6e rulebooks that are currently being published. What you lack in CC is many of the indepth explanations. Someone authorative giving any 6e rules advice is actually pretty cool. Of course the only option that seems to make you happy would be to have Steve not answer any questions.

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How's the availability of 6e2 these days?  Have the channels sold through all of those as well? 

 

(Last year, I was kind of hoping that if 6e2 sold through, the POD option may come into play. I can see not doing POD if your channel partners are still trying to sell their remaining stock.)

The online store still has 214 copies available.

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The online store still has 214 copies available.

 

Oh, they're still available at Hero's store?  For some reason I was thinking they'd sold their copies. I should have checked!

 

Well, it'll probably be a while before we see 6e1/6e2 available via POD, if my theory is correct.

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Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete are 6e Rulebooks. They are the 6e rulebooks that are currently being published. What you lack in CC is many of the indepth explanations. Someone authorative giving any 6e rules advice is actually pretty cool. Of course the only option that seems to make you happy would be to have Steve not answer any questions.

As a result of the quoted bit of insanity (which makes sense to us, but likely not to total newcomers -- since we know the history), we get authoritative answers on these forums that reference out-of-print materials ... and receive no authoritative answers on these forums that reference the currently published materials.  That isn't a complaint -- just a statement of fact.

 

This isn't about making me happy, by the way.  The point of this thread is a constructive discussion about the health of Hero System, right?  What I just wrote above, in red, is obviously not a positive sign -- yet you're defensive about it for some reason, Tasha -- despite real, valid, non-personal, constructive criticism (and potential solutions) being offered.

 

What I feel would improve that situation is for the currently-published materials to be treated as the authoritative materials (with authoritative responses by their author(s) referencing those materials, since they aren't out-of-print) AND for older, out-of-print materials that are on gratis life support (courtesy of Mr. Long) to have their own section and receive responses with references to the out-of-print materials as long as the volunteer providing them wants to give them.

 

​THAT is one option to reduce confusion for newcomers while still helping old schoolers... which is what MY concerns are aimed at.  I also think a POD approach (a la DriveThruRPG.com) for 6e could also work so that they're not considered out-of-print, anymore ... but if it was too much work for someone to set that up, so far, something tells me it won't ever get done. :(

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As a result of the quoted bit of insanity (which makes sense to us, but likely not to total newcomers -- since we know the history), we get authoritative answers on these forums that reference out-of-print materials ... and receive no authoritative answers on these forums that reference the currently published materials.

 

This statement is both true and false.

 

It is failse in that CC and FHC are both the Sixth Edition of Hero, so answers that pertain to Hero 6E pertain to them, they are just stylized versions of the current version of Hero. Stripped down, and focused on one of two genres specifically.

 

It is a true statement in the sense that CC and FHC are based on a set of rules that are no longer easily obtainable in hardcopy format, but the PDFs are still available. So 6E isn't "out of print" it is simply "digital only" and there's a difference between the two.

 

That doesn't make 6E obsolete or the incorrect version of Hero. But it does make it more difficult (and here is where I definitely agree with you) for newcomers who have picked up CC and FHC only to get a reference to a set of rules they don't have, and possibly never intended to have, access to. But then again, since CC and FHC are based on the full 6E Rules, and a question asked that isn't answered in CC or FHC, and is answered in 6E1/2, pointing them to the full resource isn't exactly the wrong thing to do.

 

After all, their question was anticipated, and answered, somewhere. Just not in the short version of the rules they have on hand. (this, incidentally is why I think going back to individualized, parsed out rules, was the wrong move. The All-In-One cat was taken out of the bag over a decade ago, even as far back as 4E, and now we're trying to put a whole family of kittens back in there... it's not working out IMO. It's just creating more frustration along the way.)

 

What would be more useful, is to answer the question & to point them at relevant page references in the resource cited. But to say Steve is answering questions in an obsolete version of the rules is wholly incorrect. CC and FHC are 6E Hero, just not all of it.

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As a point for Ghost-Angel, when writing college papers, I often quote sources that are available in databases that are available to me and my teachers but would not necessarily be available to a regular guy off the street.  The papers I quote often refer to papers and studies that are not available to me.  The point of citation is not always with the expectation that the reader will be able to obtain the source but to show that the knowledge was not created in a vacuum and, therefore, not arbitrary.  Another example is when I started reading comics in the 1970s as a young boy that would often refer back to stories that was written before I was even born.

 

Then there is the issue of being current.  To be current means that resources are currently available regardless of the format.  The fact that all of the books of 6e are available in electronic format means it is available and current, and Hero is being generous by keeping 5e available even though it is not currently supported.  After all, there are entire game systems that have been produced and marketed entirely in electronic format, and some of them are quite good.  The fact that a book is not currently available in a preferred format does not mean that it is not available or current.  With these standards, Hero meets minimum qualifications for restricting support to the primary 6e products, and even if they do not meet minimum qualifications, it is their product to do with they please.

 

As far to the health of Hero, that has to be considered relatively.  The truth is that pen and paper RPGs are not as healthy in general as they used to be unless you happen to like DnD, but among RPG alternatives, Hero is probably one of the healthiest.  Right now, they are obviously in a hunker-down mode, and they are just trying to hold on until our current economic storms pass, but that is true of a lot of companies right now, not just RPGs.   I think they are playing it right under the conditions.  Whether they can survive, that is left to forces beyond their control.  I, for one, hope they can pass the storm, and I am willing to buy products to help them survive, but I, like a lot of other potential customers, have my own storms I have to get past, and buying new game products is kind of low on my priority list.

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To a newcomer who wants to learn the Hero System and is using CC or FHC to do that, telling him or her that the rules being cited in an official answer is to be found in a PDF they can pay an extra $30 for is small comfort. Especially if they were led to believe that a book like Champions Complete is, in fact, "complete". We can argue all day over the semantics of the word "complete," but I'd wager that most newcomers would expect to have all core rules in such a volume, and for all official rules questions to ultimately reference it.

 

The Complete books were derived from 6e1/6e2, but since some rules were changed along the way, they are in fact different. It doesn't really matter how different because even a single rule change makes Complete current and 6e1/6e2 not-current. Only experts who have been following the evolution of the system have any meaningful understanding or appreciation for the scope of the differences. To everyone else, newcomers in particular, the degree of difference is irrelevent. To them, they only want to know which rules are the "right" ones, and telling them that both 6e1/6e2 and Complete are the "right" rules when they differ from each other is simply not helpful.

 

I appreciate what Steve Long does too, but when official support for your company's flagship product happens on a volunteer basis, by a single person who does not answer rules questions in terms of the current version of the rules, the health of the system will not be viewed as terribly good by outsiders contemplating giving the system a try. Whether or not that perception is entirely fair or accurate is sort of besides the point. The Hero System is stuck with it, and rather than argue amongst ourselves over whether that should be the case, energies should perhaps be focused on changing things so it isn't the case anymore.

 

As for how hard it would be to set up a POD release of 6e1/6e2, it wouldn't be hard at all. It only took me a couple of hours (not counting the time I spent reconstructing the cover graphics).

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Regardless of the title of Champions Complete, it is a single $20 book that is intended to replace three books that would add up to 3x that much if bought individually, and though the title might fool some newcomers, it would be unrealistic of the newcomers to expect 3x the value for that price, and there is nothing in the advertising for it to suggest anything else.  Essentially, it would be like someone buying MS Works and being upset because they aren't getting the same support as if they bought MS Office.  There is no unfairness to complain of.  Certainly, as a consumer, if you don't think you are getting the value you expect for the price you pay, you have the right to take your money elsewhere, but I expect a lot of game producers will be looking at reducing the value they offer for the sake of making ends meet.  Without some kind of revolution in how RPGs are done, I would not expect anything else, and a lot of what will have to change is what we as consumers will expect.  We might have to expect game companies going back to less gloss as when games were first introduced and not expect high end artistic and production quality.  I don't like the idea, but I see no other alternatives at this time.

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If the Complete books are supposed to be some new "complete version" of the rules - then Hero currently has two rulesets, not one. And I'm unaware of any rules that have actually changed in the Complete books over 6E Core...?

 

I get the mentality behind it - but I disagree with the idea that the Complete and 6E rules are not the same. Strike Force is being advertised as "for Hero 6TH Edition" after all, and not for "Champions Complete". The biggest Hero supplement in a while straight up says "6th Edition" on it... you cannot possibly argue the current rules aren't 6E - even in some other stripped down form they're still 6E.

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