Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Brian Stanfield]

Right, but we're not trying to sell you on the Hero System, are we. You are already a member of this tribe.

Good point. And thanks! Membership accepted. I ne'er thought of myself as part of this tribe: you're all more knowledgable and accomplished at HERO than I am. It's almost as satisfying as my box of Empire Club pins!

 

Appealing to existing players is not on the critical path. What is needed is a product line that will appeal to the casual RPGers who don't want to build most of the campaign world themselves, and want something compelling to play right out of the box. If it allows them to inject their own stuff later on, great, but that's not the design priority.

 

One way to look at it is this: write the kind of amazing campaign setting that you'd want to play in, and then publish it. If it strikes a chord with the general RPG population, then it will be doing the job we need it to do.

True enough. I think it's the "right out of the box" that we need to focus on, with some catchy adventures and plot seeds in a world that promises more to come. I don't need to explain dragons, demons, mastermind criminals or Nazi plots at the beginning, merely hint at their being there for future exploration.

 

I guess I'm thinking of my first experience of reading The Hobbit: all I knew was the Shire at first, with a strange wizard and some dwarves. No explanation needed: I was hooked. The promise of a dragon only lured me on, and then all these other things happened along the way that I didn't see coming. I didn't need to know the rest of Middle Earh to enjoy it, let alone read the Silmarillion beforehand to understand it.

[Nolgroth]

Sorry, I'm not questioning your taste. Your point, like Mrinku's on Champions 3e, is well made. The comic book layout was dazzling, more so in New Millennium. I agree that this concept should be used more. Justice Inc. and Pulp Hero(to a lesser extent) used images from the time period to spice up the text. That principle could have been applied to all their products a lot more, imho. Good artwork is a good hook for indecisive and wandering eyes.

 

I didn't take any offense nor interpret your message as "questioning" my tastes.

 

Speaking of C: TNM, you even have a point that the rules were way back in the book and that might put some people off. For me, that was a feature, as it allowed me to sort of jump into the setting and see what was going on before I started tackling the mechanical aspects of the system. Dresden Files Accelerated does the exact same thing to much the same effect. Again, I can see where that particular layout may not be comfortable to some people who, for the first time reading, just want to jump into the nuts 'n' bolts of a product.

 

But, as you so aptly pointed out, this is all a matter of taste. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thing is, while I agree with the aesthetics of books being important, I've never yet run into a single person online or in person that stopped playing Hero because it was too ugly.  Nobody said "well I tried Champions but the book didn't feel enough like a comic book."  They say "the books were too big, it scared me off, the math is haaaaaaaaaaard (insert Barbie voice)" etc.  Now having pretty books is a nice step, I don't mind that being the case.  But the hurdle here isn't with how the books look, its with people being frightened off by being told Hero is hard, too complicated, requires too much math, etc.

 

So that's the first problem to get past.  And 99% of that is mistaken perception which, I agree, is in part due to presentation.  Having two gigantic $75 books made people think they were buying a college course, not a game.  We're beyond that hurdle now, but the perception is still out there and what we come up with next should help address that.

I admit that my Jolrhos setting is a bit intimidating in terms of size.  The adventures are small and neat, but the main books are 400+ pages each.  I'm working on ways to trim that back, and new editions of Bestiary and Codex will be slimmer and more trimmed back.  And the full release will be more than 5 books in total, which will be incredibly comprehensive, but a bit much to swallow.  Granted, you won't need all of them.  Players can get by without the GM Handbook or the bestiary, they won't need the Codex.  But still I'm worried about the perception and am working on ways to smooth that over such as tutorial adventures, a digest version, etc.

[Brian Stanfield]

The thing is, while I agree with the aesthetics of books being important, I've never yet run into a single person online or in person that stopped playing Hero because it was too ugly. Nobody said "well I tried Champions but the book didn't feel enough like a comic book." They say "the books were too big, it scared me off, the math is haaaaaaaaaaard (insert Barbie voice)" etc. Now having pretty books is a nice step, I don't mind that being the case. But the hurdle here isn't with how the books look, its with people being frightened off by being told Hero is hard, too complicated, requires too much math, etc.

Perhaps nobody has quit HERO because it's too ugly, true enough, but they're already playing, which is not the problem I see. How many new people started playing HERO because they happened to see it on the shelf and liked what they found? The 6e core books look sharp, but are intimidating, which is also an aesthetic concern in terms of presentation. I only presented the artwork as one of several related aesthetic issues to be fixed. I'm guessing most new players who weren't scared off by hasty word-of-mouth mis-perceptions of HERO System were also introduced by people already experienced in HERO who could translate it for them and soft-start them in a game. But how many people have picked up the game at their flgs and learned it cold? Heck, how many flgs's actually stock HERO games anymore? The past few pages have been about getting new people into the system, not, as zslane points out, to please the tribe of people already devoted to the system. the health of HERO System depends on a new generation of players.

 

800 pages of HERO rules is only for devotees. I'm probably in the minority, but I actually LOVE the 6e core rule books! No joke! They totally appeal to my DIY nerdiness! As pheonix240 points out, that is exactly why some of us are devoted to HERO System. My position here, however, is that good looking game/campaign/adventure books that entice new folks is what will help keep HERO not just alive, but hopefully growing.

[zslane]

I think before embarking on making the next Fantasy product powered by HERO we should really delve into what a player(new or experienced) wants from a Fantasy RPG system/product not just in content,and that could be in the form of a poll here or in some other major RPG site.

 

In order for such a poll to have any relevance, I think it needs to be conducted outside of these forums. Go where you target audience is (which is not here). We need to know what all those gamers out there who don't already use/love the Hero System want.

 

Then again, sometimes it is better to make what you know in your own heart is awesome and show the unwashed masses what they're missing (the World of Darkness effect). A lot of the time when you ask a hundred gamers what they want, you get a hundred different answers that you then have to dissect in order to find threads of commonality you can use as a design guide. That just feels like a recipe for chasing one's own tail forever trying to accommodate everyone.

[mrinku]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing the 6e tomes are at best 20% actual rules and 80% examples, clarifications and general discussion.

 

In this day and age, isn't a lot of that best handled by an online resource? Doesn't have to be a website or wiki per se - Triple Ace Games gets a lot of mileage out of free dowloadable .pdfs to support their products.

 

Forget HERO Lite... HERO Complete could be crunched down into a book the same size as CC, replacing all the genre discussion with more general stuff. It's been done before.

 

Although to be honest, it's arguable that CC already fills that role.

[zslane]

Yeah, I tend to agree (with the "it could be much smaller" observation). The 4e HSR is a good example of how to do a core system rules book. The 6e version certainly doesn't need to be any bigger than that.

[Brian Stanfield]

In order for such a poll to have any relevance, I think it needs to be conducted outside of these forums. Go where you target audience is (which is not here). We need to know what all those gamers out there who don't already use/love the Hero System want.

 

Then again, sometimes it is better to make what you know in your own heart is awesome and show the unwashed masses what they're missing (the World of Darkness effect). A lot of the time when you ask a hundred gamers what they want, you get a hundred different answers that you then have to dissect in order to find threads of commonality you can use as a design guide. That just feels like a recipe for chasing one's own tail forever trying to accommodate everyone.

By way of a strange coincidence, I got Western Hero in the mail today, and as I looked it over I saw that they have a survey on the last page asking all these same exactquestions we've been discussing about artwork, adventures, etc. I don't know if they got much of a response, but it was interesting to note that they were paying attention to these things in 4e and open to changing their approach.

[mrinku]

By way of a strange coincidence, I got Western Hero in the mail today, and as I looked it over I saw that they have a survey on the last page asking all these same exactquestions we've been discussing about artwork, adventures, etc. I don't know if they got much of a response, but it was interesting to note that they were paying attention to these things in 4e and open to changing their approach.

 

By "4e", do you mean "in the lead up to 4e"? Western Hero was a (late) 3e product.

 

Great Wild West sourcebook. But it was the product that clued me in to HERO probably not being the best system for regular folks with guns. It works, don't get me wrong, but without any hint of powers (not even through tech, really) you'd likely be better off with GURPS, which started with such crunch as cocking a single action revolver being an action.

[zslane]

I think that Hero Games got so caught up in developing (and describing) the generic/universal potential of the system, that they neglected to actually build anything with it themselves. That created a legacy whereby only DIYers flocked to the system, and it cemented its reputation as being unusable for anyone else (i.e., the casual gamer). That was remedied somewhat by later books like Terran Empire, and the "Age" books, but those were largely one-off products, with no meaningful marketplace exposure. MHI was another step in the right direction, but it would seem that MHI never really developed a significant RPG fanbase. Not significant enough to put the Hero System closer to the "mainstream".

[zslane]

By "4e", do you mean "in the lead up to 4e"? Western Hero was a (late) 3e product.

 

Great Wild West sourcebook. But it was the product that clued me in to HERO probably not being the best system for regular folks with guns. It works, don't get me wrong, but without any hint of powers (not even through tech, really) you'd likely be better off with GURPS, which started with such crunch as cocking a single action revolver being an action.

 

I believe he meant this (it was a 4e product):

 

[mrinku]

I believe he meant this (it was a 4e product):

 

 

Hmmm... I could have sworn it was a self-contained genre book like Robot Hero and the original Star Hero and thus pre-dated the BBB. But there you go - 1991. My apologies.

[Hyper-Man]

Go to this page and scroll down the "Linked Items" section to see all 4th edition products:

https://rpggeek.com/rpg/987/hero-system-4th-edition

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Western Hero runs really well as a gritty old west system full of tumbleweeds and dust.  Crank the lethality to the max and you get a real dangerous gunfighting setting.  First session I played in instead of ran, my brother got his head blown off by a lucky shot from some bandits.

[Nolgroth]

Western Hero runs really well as a gritty old west system full of tumbleweeds and dust.  Crank the lethality to the max and you get a real dangerous gunfighting setting.  First session I played in instead of ran, my brother got his head blown off by a lucky shot from some bandits.

 

That's the stuff Western's are made of!  Then the whole clan has to go after the bandits, who are some branch of another clan. You get a warring, feuding pair of clans with the ultimate showdown determining the victor. Train stations, corrals, main street and the local silver mine are all good locations for the showdown. Peacemakers, Remington 1875's, Spencer Carbines, and the ubiquitous sawed-off double-barreled shotgun all have to make their appearance. Oh and don't forget a little dynamite just to keep things interesting.

 

Love the cowboy genre.

[mrinku]

Same here. But I'd still use GURPS   The GURPS Lite rules would more than suffice for that one, too.

[dsatow]

That's the stuff Western's are made of!  Then the whole clan has to go after the bandits, who are some branch of another clan. You get a warring, feuding pair of clans with the ultimate showdown determining the victor. Train stations, corrals, main street and the local silver mine are all good locations for the showdown. Peacemakers, Remington 1875's, Spencer Carbines, and the ubiquitous sawed-off double-barreled shotgun all have to make their appearance. Oh and don't forget a little dynamite just to keep things interesting.

 

Love the cowboy genre.

 

Yeah, back in 5th ed I ran a cowboy game at a con to test the full lethality of the Hero rules.  They were in a shoot out in a church and one of the players, fed up by missing from having to crouch behind a pew to fire, ran out into the middle of the church, guns blazing.  A hit to the chest, crit to max damage, a failed Con roll, and he fell dead.

[Brian Stanfield]

Yeah, back in 5th ed I ran a cowboy game at a con to test the full lethality of the Hero rules. They were in a shoot out in a church and one of the players, fed up by missing from having to crouch behind a pew to fire, ran out into the middle of the church, guns blazing. A hit to the chest, crit to max damage, a failed Con roll, and he fell dead.

Same here. But I'd still use GURPS The GURPS Lite rules would more than suffice for that one, too.

That's the stuff Western's are made of! Then the whole clan has to go after the bandits, who are some branch of another clan. You get a warring, feuding pair of clans with the ultimate showdown determining the victor. Train stations, corrals, main street and the local silver mine are all good locations for the showdown. Peacemakers, Remington 1875's, Spencer Carbines, and the ubiquitous sawed-off double-barreled shotgun all have to make their appearance. Oh and don't forget a little dynamite just to keep things interesting.

 

Love the cowboy genre.

Western Hero runs really well as a gritty old west system full of tumbleweeds and dust. Crank the lethality to the max and you get a real dangerous gunfighting setting. First session I played in instead of ran, my brother got his head blown off by a lucky shot from some bandits.

Western Hero is a really good resource if you're interested in what a gritty, realistic HERO campaign can look like. I don't own the 4e rules, so I can't check everything they suggest, but they are very explicit in using the alternative order of events in combat, absolutely no multiple attacks, even two handed shooting (along with realistic explanations as to why), specific weapon rules, etc. It's a model for a lethal campaign, as much as any GURPS game I've ever played.

[mrinku]

Western Hero is a really good resource if you're interested in what a gritty, realistic HERO campaign can look like. I don't own the 4e rules, so I can't check everything they suggest, but they are very explicit in using the alternative order of events in combat, absolutely no multiple attacks, even two handed shooting (along with realistic explanations as to why), specific weapon rules, etc. It's a model for a lethal campaign, as much as any GURPS game I've ever played.

 

As far as that sourcebook goes, it'd plug right into 5e or 6e just fine. Maybe even better with 6e, since it really doesn't need hexes, and doing away with figured characteristics seems to work particularly well for Heroic level. I browsed mine a little yesterday after the conversation.

 

I think the reason I may have mentally grouped it with the 3e self contained books is that it almost is. If it had been released two years earlier all they would have had to have done would be replace the sections that discuss particulars of character creation and combat with rewritten sections on character creation and combat. Might have needed to lose a page or two from another section to do so, but that'd be it. Unlike Robot Hero, 3e Star Hero and Fantasy Hero there's no need to include anything about powers (including how stuff like flight is handled in combat).

 

You could also very happily pair it with Justice Inc. Westerns were one of the biggest Pulp genres, and the main one that survived the decline of them (To this day. Cheap western paperback yarns are still fairly popular).

[Chris Goodwin]

As far as that sourcebook goes, it'd plug right into 5e or 6e just fine. Maybe even better with 6e, since it really doesn't need hexes, and doing away with figured characteristics seems to work particularly well for Heroic level. I browsed mine a little yesterday after the conversation.

 

I think the reason I may have mentally grouped it with the 3e self contained books is that it almost is. If it had been released two years earlier all they would have had to have done would be replace the sections that discuss particulars of character creation and combat with rewritten sections on character creation and combat. Might have needed to lose a page or two from another section to do so, but that'd be it. Unlike Robot Hero, 3e Star Hero and Fantasy Hero there's no need to include anything about powers (including how stuff like flight is handled in combat).

 

You could also very happily pair it with Justice Inc. Westerns were one of the biggest Pulp genres, and the main one that survived the decline of them (To this day. Cheap western paperback yarns are still fairly popular).

 

Before Western Hero came out, the group I was in played a western game using Justice Inc. and Danger International, with fluff material from Boot Hill.  Heck yes it would work just fine with those!

[zslane]

I think the reason I may have mentally grouped it with the 3e self contained books is that it almost is.

 

I think the fact that the book assumes you have either the BBB or the HSR puts it firmly in 4e territory, architecturally speaking. Just like Ninja Hero, Horror Hero, and Cyber Hero.

[mrinku]

I think the fact that the book assumes you have either the BBB or the HSR puts it firmly in 4e territory, architecturally speaking. Just like Ninja Hero, Horror Hero, and Cyber Hero.

 

Oh, yeah - it IS a proper 4e sourcebook, not some transition thing.

 

I was just saying that if it had been done a few years earlier as a stand alone it wouldn't actually be much different than it is as a 4e product. The core character creation and combat rules for HERO don't take up many pages without Powers, and Western Hero has a reduced skill list over core HERO, too. As it is, Western HERO has to use a lot of pages discussing what skills and talents aren't used, how particular core skills and talents work in this setting and the similar in regards to disadvantages and combat. In a stand alone product that page space would just be a stripped down version of the normal rules (in this case, probably copied wholesale from Justice Inc with the 20thC tech left out).

[Christopher R Taylor]

You could also very happily pair it with Justice Inc. Westerns were one of the biggest Pulp genres, and the main one that survived the decline of them (To this day. Cheap western paperback yarns are still fairly popular).

 

The two genres are remarkably similar other than slang and setting.  They mesh very well, especially as early pulp and late western crossover quite a bit, depending on where you are in the country.

[mrinku]

Well, many people use "Pulp" as slang for "Pulp Crime stories with Mystery Men", but the broader use of the term does include Westerns, Spies, Police, Private Eyes, Planetary Romance, Lost World, Sports, Humour, Spicy and more. Justice Inc does have some discussion on that, and of course the JI supplement Lands of Mystery tackled the Lost World stuff (and effectively Planetary Romance) and many of those sub-genres are just Urban Mystery Men without the actual Mystery Men and are handled by core Justice Inc. The only wonder is that there was never a Wild West supplement for JI back in the day!

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd love to see a "Powered by Hero" stand alone wild west setting with a handfull of adventures in it.  Some stock NPCs, some big names, some basic critters, just like Western Hero.  You could even provide those online for free, with the Hero Designer files for low cost.  Wouldn't actually be that tough to do, there's tons of copyright free western art out there, plus the work is mostly done already.