Haymaker with bow

[steph]

In your fantasy game in general would you let a archer use haymaker with a bow.

Gm discretion ? Or totally illegal ?

 

Ty guys

steph

[Christopher R Taylor]

Historically and realistically, you can underfire a bow (not draw it back the full way) but you can't overfire a bow (give it more power than proper use), so no I would not.  I don't like haymakers with ranged weapons to begin with, it just doesn't make sense even with a thrown weapon.  thrown weapons are more about technique than raw power, if you throw them too hard, you mess up the ballistics and it won't hit right, or at all because it will go wild.  Its like pitching a baseball, if you throw as hard as you can, its going to go wild and probably hurt your arm.  But if you throw with proper technique and learning, it can go very fast and exactly where you want.

 

That said: its your game, you can do what you want.

[Ndreare]

I have in the past treated Hay Makers as simplified called shoot mechanics. So a sniper making a haymaker is actually taking extra time to go for a soft spot.
I also allowed players to reroll dice that till less than their main of success on a roll. (Each die can only be rolled once).

Note: I do not combine this concept with the hit location rules.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

There is sorta a haymaker for ranged weapons, but it increase your range not damage. It is the Distance Shot Maneuver. Ptarersonally, I could not see an actual haymaker with a bow, thrown spear, slingshot, or any ranged weapon. Maybe a grenade, but that's not really Fantasy Hero, that's more Dark Champions or Star Hero

[Urlord]

The only way I would allow a Hay Maker with a bow is if the archer decided to use the bow staff like a club and smack some with it.

 

I'm Just Say'n!

[massey]

To answer your question, it is totally book legal.  Now, in your campaign, you are free to disallow that.  But the starting point is "legal".

 

I'd allow it.  Special-effects wise, maybe you're taking extra time to hit the guy in the eyeball or something (can be represented with called shot, but can also be represented with haymaker).  Or like an action movie, everything goes slow-motion and this shot is clearly more important than the others.  I'd probably allow it.

[pinecone]

In your fantasy game in general would you let a archer use haymaker with a bow.

Gm discretion ? Or totally illegal ?

 

Ty guys

steph

Sure, it's just "Taking extra time, for the perfect shot"

[Steve]

I have in the past treated Hay Makers as simplified called shoot mechanics. So a sniper making a gay maker is actually taking extra time to go for a soft spot.

I also allowed players to reroll dice that till less than their main of success on a roll. (Each die can only be rolled once).

 

Note: I do not combine this concept with the hit location rules.

The sniper remark caught me offguard and almost made me spew my drink.

 

I could see a haymaker as a type of called shot. You could do it with a bow or do it with a gun.

[Ndreare]

Lol, the context sounds very dirty, I will edit it when I get home.

 

Yeah that should have read haymaker not gay maker. That was spell check.

[Greywind]

Boxing glove arrow...

[Steve]

Lol, the context sounds very dirty, I will edit it when I get home.

 

Yeah that should have read haymaker not gay maker. That was spell check.

 

That's one interesting spell check change.

[bigdamnhero]

Sure, it's just "Taking extra time, for the perfect shot"

Exactly. Remember, Haymakers aren't about using additional Strength (that's Pushing), they're about taking additional time. And with most ranged attacks, damage is mostly about shot placement.

 

I would not allow someone to combine Haymaker with Called Shot, but I don't normally allow that combo with HtH attacks either.

[dmjalund]

do Haymakers cost more END?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

No, they don't

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the thinking of some of the people here.  Since I run default hit locations in games with people using bows for weaponry, I just saw "picking your target" as a clear hit location issue.  However, it does make sense that you could consider a Haymaker just another way of defining that without being specific.

 

In fact I'd go further and say that you could actually use Haymaker to be a hit location proxy: choose the location you hit instead of a damage bonus by taking extra time and a big DCV loss.  I like this idea so much I think if I ever run a game again, that's what I'll do.

 

However, with the alternate damage system we've discussed on these boards, it might be unnecessary.  In that system, there is no KA alternate dice, just normal dice with AVAD: resistant defenses.  So all damage is rolled as if normal damage.  That d6+1 RKA because a 4d6 RKA against rPD.  And in that system, instead of multipliers in hit locations, you see dice adders, and that begins to act exactly like haymaker anyway.  So a head hit would be +4d6 (after defenses) just like a Haymaker.

[Urlord]

...

However, with the alternate damage system we've discussed on these boards, it might be unnecessary.  In that system, there is no KA alternate dice, just normal dice with AVAD: resistant defenses.  So all damage is rolled as if normal damage.  That d6+1 RKA because a 4d6 RKA against rPD.  And in that system, instead of multipliers in hit locations, you see dice adders, and that begins to act exactly like haymaker anyway.  So a head hit would be +4d6 (after defenses) just like a Haymaker.

 

This is interesting - I haven't seen this thread.  Could you point me to it please?

[Christopher R Taylor]

It came up in this discussion of splitting out damage into different types based on physical characteristics.

 

I like the idea so much I'm using it from now on in my heroic games and its going to be in my Jolrhos Fantasy Hero setting when the Player's Handbook and Treasure books come out.

[Lucius]

Historically and realistically, you can underfire a bow (not draw it back the full way) but you can't overfire a bow (give it more power than proper use),

And one could assume that "normal" bowfire is underfiring, not using the full draw of the bow in the interest of getting the shots off faster. Haymaker is taking the time and effort to draw the bow ALL the way before loosing.

 

That said, it could also be conceptualized as lining up the "perfect shot."

 

Either way, yes, I permit it. It's both technically legal and conceptually justifiable - but I don't know that I'd argue if someone else forbids it in their game.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

and a legal and justified palindromedary

[Ndreare]

This has me thinking, and it would seem to me that forbidding it for ranged attacks while still allowing it for melee attacks is another case of special effect determines game mechanic. I see it all the time but in this case it's melee guys get extra Maneuvers allowed and ranged guys get restricted based on the Gamemaster concept of the special effect.

Would you allow a blaster to handle his power? It happens all the time in books and comics. But out Hawkeye chose a special effect the game master chose to penalize?

[Ninja-Bear]

I would allow a haymaker as to represent a more accurate shot.

[Old Man]

I would tell the player that if he starts using haymakers with bows, he's going to start running into a lot of bad guy archers. It's totally up to him.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would allow it. The extra segment and -5DCV modifyer will ensure it isnt used often. Especially when any archers who abuse it will meet up with opponents with large movement scores or ranged weaponry themselves.

 

I have no issue varying the sfx of Haymaker from being a powerful hit with all ones Strength behind it to a carefully aimed shot meant to strike the most critical areas of the body. Either way, the end result is +4 DC and Hit Locations will still be observed.

 

Of course I observe DC maximums so a 1d6k arrow will never do more than 2d6k.

[Nolgroth]

Both 5E and 6E apply Concentration to archery?  So if an archer's DCV is, say 6, -5 for the Haymaker and then halved, that makes their DCV 1. Without the Haymaker that makes it a 3.  This becomes such a detriment that, until DCV 8. the archer using Haymaker is stuck at a DCV of 0 or 1. I see that as a reasonable drawback and fits the whole 'making the shot count' aspect of the extra damage. 

 

I've noticed that using Campaign Maximums lends itself to a fairly over the top cinematic style while per weapon DC maximums makes for a more gritty style. Either one can be good, depending on what you and your players want out of the game. The per weapon DC caps also make it so that a higher than normal damage weapon can be something really amazing. For instance, if a magic bow does 1 1/2d6k instead of 1d6k, doubled it does 3d6k. That's a pretty significant leap in damage output.

[Tholomyes]

I feel like "overfiring" a bow is a good place where HERO's Reality vs Dramatic Reality dichotomy can be put to the test. For me, I would see no reason not to allow that to simply be the flavor; there are enough drawbacks to haymakering that it's clear you've passed the optimal firing power of the bow, but if you allow yourself to suspend disbelief for a moment, the "overdrawing" explanation makes more sense for the flavor if anything, and it doesn't prescribe bonuses and penalties based on special effect, which is something HERO tries not to do.

 

Now, there may be the question of whether it should apply to ranged attacks in general, but that's largely dependant on the style of game you'd want: in a game where you want the Barbarian to be the hard-hitter, the Ranger to be the more accurate one, and the Mage to be the glass cannon, different rules about certain things, such as ranged haymakers, might be warranted, but as a baseline, I see no reason to allow dramatic realism to trump for the baseline RAW of "You can haymaker with a ranged attack".

[Christopher R Taylor]

You should always try bowing after you do a haymaker.