D&D 5e concept conversions (6e Hero)

[eepjr24]

So I am dinking around with converting some ideas from the new D&D to Hero. Just looking for ideas for how others have or would implement some of them.

 

1. Savings Throw - Where applicable a check versus appropriate ability to see if the target gets half (or sometimes no) effect from a spell. My ideas center around spell system limitations on the spells themselves, but hard to differentiate between half and no effect since it looks like they would both be -1/4 if not based on AP of the spell?

2. Feat progressions - Mostly interested here in how to keep progress even while maintaining a structure around gaining new feats / abilities. Something like every N experience you are eligible to pick a new feat. Something similar will be in play for spells in the casters realm.

 

Also looking to thoughts for other general conversion strategies around D&D 5e, if anyone has tried it. Starting points (currently thinking 75+50), packages, everyman skills, whatnot.

 

- Ernie

[Christopher R Taylor]

A way of building it is a modification on AVAD: requires a roll.  You can have it either negate the effect (for a larger modifier on the spell) or to half the effect (for a smaller modifier)

[Hyper-Man]

I am not familiar with D&D5 but I am with AD&D1 and to a lesser extent 2e and 3.x so the following is from that lens....

 

I think Saving Throws, Hit Points and their function in D&D is evidence of a hidden progression of abilities that would be best modeled in HERO by a wide variety of abilities including Combat Skill Levels, Overall Levels, Combat Luck, Dodge, Dive For Cover and possibly even Damage Reduction (note that the Deadly Blow Talent is just a prepacked group of Limited CSL's used to increase damage)

 

Damage Reduction with an increase in granularity would be about the only way to do a direct conversion of how Hit Points for Player Characters function (as opposed to 'monsters' and hit dice).  A D&D Fighter with 80+ Hit Points from being 10th Level and a high CON converted to HERO would not necessarily have Body and Stun much higher than a rookie Fantasy Hero character (or a 1st Level D&D Fighter converted over to HERO).  Hit Points are a meta-effect that combine the aggregate experience and Class of a character to bear on how good they are at avoiding taking a 'direct hit' to what HERO calls BODY.

 

Others will likely chime in and tell you that if you want to do a 'Direct Conversion' of D&D to HERO you are probably better off sticking with D&D.

 

You should decide what exactly it is you are looking to gain from the effort needed for such a conversion.  I think the HERO combat options alone are worth it but I would strongly recommend not trying to port over ALL the combat mechanics of D&D.  Heck, just trying to convert the lowly Magic Missile to HERO terms used to spur multipage debates on how best to do it considering there are no Absolute Effects built into HERO by default.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Although it mostly has D&D3.x and HERO 5e material it should still be relevant to your needs:

 

http://killershrike.com/

and check out the Fantasy section

 

:)HM

[Chris Goodwin]

I would recommend not trying to too-closely match D&D's mechanics in Hero.  
 
Specifically regarding saving throws, I agree with Hyper-Man that there are a few mechanics in Hero that let you avoid damage with a roll, and at a meta level those are somewhat similar to what saving throws represent in D&D; anything from diving out of the way to avoid damage to rolling with a blow to having the strength of will to shrug off a mental attack.  Anything further than that would be something you'd want to bake into a power with a Limitation; I'd say that poisons or toxins would be the most likely use for a CON roll to reduce or eliminate damage.  
 
As far as something like feat progressions are concerned, there are examples of magic systems that use a sort of progression system with prerequisites, that require you to buy the earlier ones in the chain before the later ones.  Just the act of spending XP on them would IMO be enough.  Killer Shrike's site that Hyper-Man mentioned above can explain some ways of doing D&D-style level progression, but I wouldn't bother, myself.  
 
Regarding high levels of hit points, I'd go with more of the spirit of the character than trying to represent a high hit point value with specific amounts of BODY and/or STUN.  A character who is hard to kill in D&D should be hard to kill in Hero, and there are a lot of mechanical ways to represent that in Hero that are part of what D&D uses hit points to abstract away.  I would strongly recommend checking out the wounds and vitality rules in the 3.5e Unearthed Arcana supplement (online here), which more closely match Hero's way of doing things; if you've got a group you're trying to switch over, you'd be best off including that and a few other house rules in your D&D game to sort of soften the way.  I'd recommend vitality/wounds, armor as damage reduction (note that mechanically, Hero defenses work like D&D 3.x damage reduction), bell curve rolls (substituting 3d6 instead of a d20), and using a hex grid, all of which are available at the link above.
 
All of this is to say: when you convert, try to convert the spirit of the character rather than the letter of the mechanics, and expect that when you play it out in Hero you're going to get a somewhat different experience.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the concept of the saving throw as representing magic resistance or spells that, with willpower or personal ability, be reduced or ignored.  Its an interesting mechanic to add to the mix.  I don't like it being your only option, but its a neat additional option.

[eepjr24]

Although it mostly has D&D3.x and HERO 5e material it should still be relevant to your needs:

 

http://killershrike.com/

and check out the Fantasy section

 

:)HM

 

I am already quite familiar with Killer Shrikes material and will likely be adding some content to it for 5e D&D to 6e Hero spell conversions. For a number of reasons it has made some things easier to build, some spells have become more balanced and some I just like the flavor of. Thank you for the pointer though.

[eepjr24]

To clarify a bit what I am thinking, I am not looking for a one to one conversion or even something in the ballpark. I want to maintain a certain feel and some ideas but i am MUCH more familiar with Hero than D&D, although I do quite like some of the worlds and campaign settings from the various incarnations of D&D and did cut my teeth back on Basic D&D (the old red soft cover).

 

With that said, I don't want a saving throw to be the only defense against a spell. 5e D&D does not work that way in most cases anyway, "save or die" is gone for the most part. i want something that if the caster (or creator of the spell most likely) includes a limitation of a certain value the damage can either be partially or fully avoided. My major problem is something along the lines of: If I allow savings throws like in D&D which are based off of characteristic rolls as a Skill vs Skill roll with the caster's Spell skill (whatever that turns out to be) is it worth a limitation of -1/4 to reduce the incoming effect by half and worth -1/2 to eliminate it? NCM will be in effect with some modifications by race. Spell skill rolls will likely need to be controlled somehow but I don't want to put active point restrictions on the skill rolls to cause more inflation. Note that this will not be on every spell, just the ones I find it appropriate for so that should limit points dedicated just to defeating it as well since casters have other things to worry about offsetting like range or encumberance or being hit, etc. 

 

As far as progressions I am more interested in laying out some possible paths for people who are more used to having predefined things to choose from as they progress. Not looking to lock them in to a path, anyone who wants to get creative will get support from me, but if someone wants to know a path to become a Blue Mountain Knight or join the ranks of the Long March Mercenary Mages I am looking for some suggestions. Package Deals are certainly one way to go. I was thinking maybe setting some pre-requisite stat, talent, perk or skill requirements to be considered a Master Rogue, Veteran Fighter, etc etc. For these I have been looking at Killer Shrikes packages but would be interested if someone else has some they have used or just ideas to banter about.

 

Also looking more broadly for 6e FH content on the interwebs, if anyone has links please post them.

 

- E

[Lucius]

 

The major difference between "Requires a Roll" and "Saving Throw" is the answer to the question "Who rolls the dice?" If the spell has an Activation Roll of 11, that's mathematically equivalent to letting the target attempt a saving throw on 3d6 and saving on 9 or less. You can allow players to buy Skill Levels with Saving Throw to improve that.

 

You want a spell that does "half damage if save?" Just buy half the spell without the Limitation, then buy the rest with the Limitation.

 

You want Saving Throws based on Characteristics? I'd say give the spell a Limitation equivalent to Required Roll 8 or less.

 

You want the spellcaster to impose penalties on Saving Throws? I'd suggest an Advantage you can put on specific spells or if it's something that applies to all spells look at Change Environment.

 

In some cases, the "Saving Throw" already exists in Hero. Powers like Telepathy and Mind Control for example already have Breakout Rolls, you can see through Images with a Perception roll, etc. Imposing a Saving Throw on these would be redundant but you probably already knew that so I guess I'm being redundant in pointing it out.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Save vs Palindromedary

[eepjr24]

Okay, so I went back and read RAR twice. Dug out FREd and read it there too. I think (as usual) going simple here may be best, so i will likely take the approach of building it like this:

 

Spell Save (-1/2)

Requires a Roll: Base (-1/2), Characteristic based (+/-0), Skill Versus Skill (+/-0). -1 per 10 Active points (for caster and target)

 

You can buy this on part or all of the spell, indicating how much effect can be mitigated by the roll. I am going to just negate out the Active Points penalty since is applies to both sides and fits this concept better. I think I will also have 2 more versions of it for some special cases, below.

 

Difficult Spell Save (-1/4)

Requires a Roll: Base (-1/2), Characteristic based (+/-0), Skill Versus Skill (+/-0). -1 per 20 Active points (for caster), -1 per 10 Active points (for target).

 

Easy Spell Save (-3/4)

Requires a Roll: Base (-1/2), Characteristic based (+/-0), Skill Versus Skill (+/-0). -1 per 10 Active points (for caster), -1 per 20 Active points (for target).

 

Since I will be either building or approving all the spells, these can just be not allowed in cases where they don't make sense or some other method is already in place for handling it (levels of effect type powers).

 

As far as the feat progression goes, I think I like Chris G's keep it simple approach for the most part. There are certain things I want to be uncommon in the game so that there is a sense of progression but I can just handle those either by saying that there are prerequisites to the power or that they require training at a certain subset of places or have to be quested after to acquire the knowledge / ingredients / whatever.

 

Thank you all for the input so far. Any further thoughts on what I outlined above?

 

Also, still looking for any D&D 5e conversions if anyone knows of any.

 

- E

[Chris Goodwin]

Also, still looking for any D&D 5e conversions if anyone knows of any.

 

- E

 

Here is a thread discussing D&D 5e and how it might relate to Hero.  I'd recommend reading through that thread, then using Killer Shrike's site in conjunction with it to get the rough conversions.  Or, start with the Fantasy Hero templates and add or subtract what's necessary; if you're playing an elven paladin in D&D 5e, for instance, Fantasy Hero gives you elf and paladin templates that won't match exactly but will get you pretty close.  You might also check out the Narosia Fantasy Hero quickstart here which can give some alternate ideas, including background templates.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well we are going to use resistance based on CON to represent saving throws. Fwiw it hasn't been play tested as of yet.

[eepjr24]

 

Here is a thread discussing D&D 5e and how it might relate to Hero.  I'd recommend reading through that thread, then using Killer Shrike's site in conjunction with it to get the rough conversions.  Or, start with the Fantasy Hero templates and add or subtract what's necessary; if you're playing an elven paladin in D&D 5e, for instance, Fantasy Hero gives you elf and paladin templates that won't match exactly but will get you pretty close.  You might also check out the Narosia Fantasy Hero quickstart here which can give some alternate ideas, including background templates.

First off, kudo's for getting through that thread. lol. Numerous sidetracks and side discussions, not a lot of good conversion ideas in the end. I will read the Narosia stuff once I am a little closer to converting the Background system over to package deals (optional, but there).

 

I have a lot of the older Hero System books, back to even most of the 1st and 2nd edition Champions books, so I will be perusing them for ideas and content as well, especially the older FH stuff. Are any of the newer FH books worth it for these purposes? Or just converting the same powers over to the 6e standards?

[eepjr24]

Well we are going to use resistance based on CON to represent saving throws. Fwiw it hasn't been play tested as of yet.

I'd be interested in hearing about it, but I think I will start off with 6 Characteristic based saving throws for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to discourage inflation of any particular stat over others. 

[eepjr24]

For any following this thread, I have made a little more progress. I will be using 6 characteristics for saving throws (STR DEX CON INT EGO PRE). Most spells will not give saving throws but enough will to keep things interesting. I will be using the modified 7+CHAR/3 system for skill and saving throw basis. PER will still work off INT/5 for now. 

 

If you are interested in seeing or keeping up with the spells I have converted thus far, you can look at them over on Killer Shrikes pages here:

 

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/VancianSpells/ActiveSpellsList.aspx?ProviderId=23

 

Note that those are just the 5e D&D to 6e Hero conversions for the moment but may contain other things as time moves on. Additions will not be fast at the moment as I am also trying to help KS by updating the older spells for consistency and to add back in the Effect Names that were lost in a site hack a number of years ago. If you see things that are not named and know what they should be, feel free to drop me a line and I will add it to the updates after I check it out.

 

- Ernie

[Ninja-Bear]

I'd be interested in hearing about it, but I think I will start off with 6 Characteristic based saving throws for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to discourage inflation of any particular stat over others.

I'll let you know but it wont be till the summmer before the first run.

[Killer Shrike]

Killer Shrike's site that Hyper-Man mentioned above can explain some ways of doing D&D-style level progression, but I wouldn't bother, myself.  

 

Hey Chris, good to bump into you again.

 

Just a point of clarity, I don't actually provide D&D style level progression, I just provide a chart that indicates how many points to use when converting a character of a certain level from D&D into HERO System terms when using the conversion guidelines. It is meant to be a one way conversion. If a given GM wanted to use the chart as a "level" table post-conversion or to maintain level semantics for other purposes or something along those lines then that's something they are free to do but the conversion does not require it or advocate it. 

 

Similarly none of the rigidity of a class system is intended to be retained, but again if a given GM wanted to enforce it in their campaign by vetoing character development in such a way as to maintain some semblance of class structure then that's up to them. Again the conversion neither requires or advocates it.

 

I personally never did such a thing as casting off class and level restrictions on character development is in my opinion one of the most compelling reasons to convert to Fantasy HERO in the first place (the other two big compelling reasons for me being the option to have more elaborate or interesting magic system options and the other to use a more mechanically sound game engine for resolution). 

 

Other than that, I'm happy to see people are still using this material after all these years. Makes my black old heart warm and fuzzy.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I did find that with my last game players responded better to having delayed experience given out in bigger chunks than a slow drizzle of small points.  10 points is easier to figure out something with than 3, for at least some players.  That feels more like a level up than a slow drizzle of a few points at a time.

[Killer Shrike]

I did find that with my last game players responded better to having delayed experience given out in bigger chunks than a slow drizzle of small points.  10 points is easier to figure out something with than 3, for at least some players.  That feels more like a level up than a slow drizzle of a few points at a time.

 

Yeah, towards the end of my heavy HERO campaign running I started playing around with alternate experience point / character progression systems. I wrote up a series of articles detailing different mechanisms, some accounting based hacks, others more fundamental or narrative approaches. They're filed under "Meta Concepts" here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHero/MetaConcepts.aspx

[eepjr24]

I agree with KS on not carrying over the restrictiveness of the original setting with no other reason than that's how it was there. I do find the fixed spells available a convenient throttle to what I know can happen when players start designing their own spells without good guidelines. =) And for many players familiar with a system it is easier if at the start the new system emulates the old to the degree possible while still allowing the freedom to depart if they are comfortable with that. And I think that encourages people to explore the system, in that when the see their fellow players do something cool and unique they start reading and exploring how to do the cool and unique things they want to do that they had trouble with in the original setting.

 

I have played in the past with some alternate forms of xp award as well. One thing that I find worked for me was to an extent asking the player about their goals for character development and then awarding points toward specific goals that would "click on" once they reached the threshold of points to make that power usable. If they need 5 points for the next feat they want, some XP goes into the "feat X" pool. If they are after more strength, it goes in to a STR pool that pops when they have spent enough training time and concentration of adventure time on building strength. These pools can be as transparent or opaque to player view as your setting, preference and player preference allow. 

 

I do tend to combine the above with Hero Points or RP points or some other form of award that allows minor changes in game like changing a critical miss to a regular miss or boosting to hit by 1 or rerolling 1's on a damage roll. That way people still feel like they are progressing even when it is not tied directly to XP on the character sheet.

 

- E

[HeroGM]

Steve did an article for digital he to about saving throws. Will pull it out later

[HeroGM]

Heroglyphs from DH 18.

 

Avoidance roll.

 

-1 roll reduces effect by 50-75%

-1 1/2 roll reduces effect by 100%

 

Can be charaatic rolls, existing skills, or skill created for the avoidance rule system.

[eepjr24]

That is neat. Is that an opposed roll or straight roll? I am using opposed rolls, which is why I went with -1/2.

 

- E

[HeroGM]

Straight. There's more to the article. Such as mid if the roll is adjusted up to +/-4 (ie con roll -2)

[eepjr24]

Just FYI, I moved most of the discussion on this thread over to the main hero discussion. I will update here on occasion as well. All class, race, and background templates are complete. So are Invoations and feats. will move back to spells again shortly.

 

Most of the content can be reached here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/eepjr24/Default.aspx 

 

If you need the links for invocations or feats, please check the other thread.

 

- E