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Wonder Woman


Greywind

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Yes, Amazon is a noun, Amazonian is an adjective. If we were to take to task everyone whose English is imperfect, we'd have virtually no Internet content free from such criticism. Even broadcast television standards have fallen precipitously over the years. Getting it wrong, linguistically, is simply the new norm in our society from what I can tell.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I'm a teacher, so I recognize it, but it still rubs me the wrong way. Voss presenting so much useful info, but botching such a basic detail about his subject, gets to me like when people around these forums consistently misspell "villain" as "villian." Given the context, there's really no excuse. :(

 

Some people play fast and lose with spelling, but don't loose your cool over it.

 

They're just loosers.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Spell it p a l i n d r o m e d a r y

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I agree about the overuse of slo-mo, but it still beats the hell out of shakycam.

I feel about slo-mo fights the same way I feel about shaky cam: both are good in small doses but tend to get overused. I didn't have a problem with any of the individual bullet-time scenes, but could've done with fewer of them overall. But then, most of my game group felt those were the best bits, so YMMV and all that.

 

Re Ares claims: it wasn't entirely clear to me how much we're supposed to believe everything he said about really being the God of Truth, not actually starting wars, etc. What was y'all's take?

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Re Ares claims: it wasn't entirely clear to me how much we're supposed to believe everything he said about really being the God of Truth, not actually starting wars, etc. What was y'all's take?

 

To me that sounded like classic villain rationalization. No villain who isn't a total psychopath sees himself as evil. He always has a justification for what he's doing which makes him a hero in his own mind. Given Ares' view of humanity, an argument amounting to, "I didn't make that child shoot anyone, I just put a gun in her hand," seems to me like massive denial of responsibility. But from his perspective it just proves that all the children should shoot each other and get it over with.

 

BTW it wasn't "God of Truth," it was "God of Inspiration." As one reviewer put it, Ares is claiming to be a Muse. :snicker:

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Ares seemed not to understand much about human history. He seemed to believe that humans like war, even without his influence. The fact that large changes to the social order are almost always achieved through violence (war) seems to be lost on him. I wouldn't expect Diana to understand this, but Ares certainly should. Any historian (or god) who had the benefit of watching, first hand, every civil war, revolution, and campaign of unification would know that war on the scale of The Great War is never waged simply for its own sake, or simply to satisfy the evil urges of a few overly powerful men. Nor is war a reflection of Man's Truest Nature.

 

War is, out of necessity, a tool used by humanity to affect large-scale changes to the social order. In the case of WWI, Old World oligarchies were being replaced by new socio-political structures: nationalism, socialism, democracy. It was a complete upheaval of the old ways, and all the entrenched monarchies of the world were prepared to stand their ground and defend their way of life right to the bitter end. Every now and then a dying forest needs to be purged with fire so that it can be reborn, verdant and life-sustaining again. This is just the natural life-cycle of human social structures, and does not represent some sort of cosmic struggle between love and hate, even if the actors in the grand play do hate each other due to centuries of ethnic conflict. What's going on is bigger than ethnic rivalries, and more complex than some primal urge to fight/kill, but not so spiritually weighty as Diana's interpretation of the struggle.

 

But, this is Hollywood after all. Why let the vast complexities of the chosen historical context get in the way of telling a rousing story, right?

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True. But a gifted writer will tell essentially the same story without leading the audience to a grave misunderstanding of history, society, or their own nature.

 

For instance, instead of leading Diana to think she was fighting hate and evil with love, and being disillusioned by the inability of love to win the day all over the globe with one single act (and the death of one old Olympian god), the screenplay could have led her to realize that it is the act of love and compassion applied in small measure every day that, little by little, improves the world. Her disillusionment could have come from realizing that even when love flourishes, human social structures will still rise and fall and live and die, violently, and at the cost of many lives. It would be the failure of her idealism that takes her from the world of men, not the failure of mankind to live up to some utopian standard.

 

I think a talented writer can find a way to convey these things in the same 2.5 hour running time as the existing film, and all without losing the audience.

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True. But a gifted writer will tell essentially the same story without leading the audience to a grave misunderstanding of history, society, or their own nature.

 

For instance, instead of leading Diana to think she was fighting hate and evil with love, and being disillusioned by the inability of love to win the day all over the globe with one single act (and the death of one old Olympian god), the screenplay could have led her to realize that it is the act of love and compassion applied in small measure every day that, little by little, improves the world. Her disillusionment could have come from realizing that even when love flourishes, human social structures will still rise and fall and live and die, violently, and at the cost of many lives. It would be the failure of her idealism that takes her from the world of men, not the failure of mankind to live up to some utopian standard.

 

I think a talented writer can find a way to convey these things in the same 2.5 hour running time as the existing film, and all without losing the audience.

Actually, having just returned from seeing a second time, I think that is what Diana realizes exactly. Helping people on an individual basis, or small basis (like the town of Veld). Giving those people even a little respite made a difference. The fact that Veld then became a victim of Ludendorf's show can probably be put right at Ares feet, since the last thing he would have wanted was Diana thinking there was good in "MAN".

I was also struck more in the second viewing of how well Godat could use her eyes and face to portray that innocence that is Diana. I like that as we see her in the future, she still has some of it, just not the full on blinders she did before WWI.

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With respect, zslane, all that you say is true, but ultimately it's a rationalization. Social inequities, entrenched positions, wouldn't exist without human greed, selfishness, fear and hatred. War wouldn't be necessary if Mankind was governed by reason and compassion. Ants are the only other species on this planet which engage in large-scale murder of their own kind; but ants aren't capable of imagining a better way.

 

Ares' position is not unreasonable for a being who has indeed watched all of human history, and seen the same destructive behavior repeated again and again. But Diana and Steve Trevor together come to a more balanced perspective, that humanity is deeply flawed, but there's also much that's good in us.

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I was also struck more in the second viewing of how well Godat could use her eyes and face to portray that innocence that is Diana. I like that as we see her in the future, she still has some of it, just not the full on blinders she did before WWI.

 

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the criticism of Gadot's acting is derived from her line delivery, which sometimes seems stilted. But I'm inclined to lay some of that to English not being her first language. I've seen a number of respected actors from non-English-speaking countries who perform noticeably better in their native tongue. But Gadot's face and posture are very expressive. In particular, she does a steely determined gaze as well as anyone I've seen. And while we've all heard of "a smile that lights up a room," this is one of the rare people who actually has it.

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With respect, zslane, all that you say is true, but ultimately it's a rationalization. Social inequities, entrenched positions, wouldn't exist without human greed, selfishness, fear and hatred. War wouldn't be necessary if Mankind was governed by reason and compassion. Ants are the only other species on this planet which engage in large-scale murder of their own kind; but ants aren't capable of imagining a better way.

 

Ares' position is not unreasonable for a being who has indeed watched all of human history, and seen the same destructive behavior repeated again and again. But Diana and Steve Trevor together come to a more balanced perspective, that humanity is deeply flawed, but there's also much that's good in us.

 

And war wouldn't be possible without humanity's virtues--courage, honor, duty, loyalty. If everyone were greedy, selfish and cowardly, nobody could field an army. It's a two-edged sword. And if you think only humans and ants fight wars, you haven't been paying attention. Chimps and other primates go on raiding parties, attacking, killling--and EATING--chimps from other bands, as one example. Most predators, it's true, don't fight in organzed fashion--but most predators are solitary, and will fight--and kill, or die, if it comes to that--to hold their solitary territorities against other rivals. Heck, even prey species will fight--sometimes dying in the process--for territory, or breeding rights.

 

Conflict, even organized conflict, is hardly a uniquely human thing. Or intelligence has allowed us to do it bigger and better than any other species, but--like so many other attributes once thought to be unique to humans, it's only a matter of degree.

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With respect, zslane, all that you say is true, but ultimately it's a rationalization. Social inequities, entrenched positions, wouldn't exist without human greed, selfishness, fear and hatred. War wouldn't be necessary if Mankind was governed by reason and compassion.

 

Sure, but the movie seems to be trying to say that the problem (to be solved by Diana) is war itself (personified by Ares), rather than the social conditions that lead mankind to resort to it in order to affect large-scale (and ultimately positive) social change on its own behalf. Even if Diana learned the truth of this, I'm not so sure audiences did.

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Just saw WW again, and enjoyed it way more the second time. For whatever reason, my brain was stuck in Film Critique Mode the first time and I was distracted by a bunch nitpicky errors and omissions. This time I could just sit back and enjoy all the things the movie got *right.*. Which was a lot. Revising my grade from solid B to A-. Even more impressed with the acting & direction than the first time, and even Ares didn't bug me. Much.

 

The only part where Critical Brain kicked back in was at the end of the boss fight, when the surviving Germans take off their gas masks, gaze in wonder at the sunrise, and all the people who just killed all their friends. I kept hearing Tom Lehrer in my head:

"Once all the Germans were warlike and mean,

But that couldn't happen again.

We taught them a lesson in 1918,

And they've hardly bothered us since then!"

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I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the criticism of Gadot's acting is derived from her line delivery, which sometimes seems stilted. But I'm inclined to lay some of that to English not being her first language. I've seen a number of respected actors from non-English-speaking countries who perform noticeably better in their native tongue. But Gadot's face and posture are very expressive. In particular, she does a steely determined gaze as well as anyone I've seen. And while we've all heard of "a smile that lights up a room," this is one of the rare people who actually has it.

Interesting. I didn't find her acting stilted and her having a slight accent to her english was a plus for me. I always imagined that Wonder Woman SHOULD have a bit of an accent.

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Interesting. I didn't find her acting stilted and her having a slight accent to her english was a plus for me. I always imagined that Wonder Woman SHOULD have a bit of an accent.

 

I agree that Gal Gadot's accent works for the character, and Patty Jenkins having other Amazons adopt a similar accent is an example of turning what some might consider a weakness into a strength. And for the record, I didn't think Gadot's overall performance was stilted, just some of her line delivery (certainly not all of it). The other things she did well more than made up for that IMHO.

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Oh, a few notes on things we've discussed that I paid specific attention to this time.

 

The opening "I used to want to protect this world..." voiceover  is definitely Diana.

 

Hippolyta's line to Diana is "If you choose to leave you may never return." The line reading is ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted as either a prohibition or an expression of concern. Probably done that way on purpose to leave their options open.

 

Diana say's "We speak hundreds of languages" and the other Amazons can clearly communicate with Trevor on the beach, so the  polyglot thing is not just her.

 

Ares' "I am the God of Truth" line and extended self-justification is all delivered while bound by the lasso. So either the lasso doesn't work on gods, and/or he's speaking what he believes to be true. I'm going with the latter.

 

Also I didn't notice it the first time, but the last shot of the German destroyer off Themyscira looks like it's listing to one side as if it hit some reefs or something, which I guess explains why we don't see it again. Sloppy editing, but ok. (I might've put the reefs outside the cloaking field, but that's just me...)

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In the comics, Diana is portrayed as becoming jaded over time, tired of trying to protect earth and its people.  In the what-if series Kingdom Come, for example, she's very jaded and hard, and its the first time she's seen with a sword in the comics that I'm aware of (one so sharp it cuts Superman's finger).  So the voiceover could be some prediction of this happening, or just using her voice to explain the attitude of the Amazons.

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Also I didn't notice it the first time, but the last shot of the German destroyer off Themyscira looks like it's listing to one side as if it hit some reefs or something, which I guess explains why we don't see it again. Sloppy editing, but ok. (I might've put the reefs outside the cloaking field, but that's just me...)

 

I read comments about the ship after my first viewing of the movie, so I was looking for it on second viewing. You're right, it was listing severely to starboard, so must have run onto a reef. I would have preferred actually seeing it run aground, but barring that I'm glad it was inside the magic zone, because without seeing that everyone would question why the ship didn't turn home to warn German High Command. Implicitly all the German sailors must have landed, and died on that beach.

 

It occurs to me that someone might have noticed the ship wasn't accounted for after principle photography was finished, and they figured inserting that shot in post was the easiest correction.

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