Thoughts on PD and ED in Fantasy

[Alcamtar]

This weekend, I was contemplating PD vs ED. My game has always been Fantasy Hero, rarely so much as looking sideways at other genres, and the PD/ED divide always struck me as artificial. Something left over from superheroes, but needless clutter in a fantasy game, where PD and ED are listed separately but typically closely balanced if not identical. My ideas about supers are probably naive, neither reading comics much nor having ever played a supers game, but it seems to me that energy projectors are all about energy (duh!) while bricks and martial artists are all about physical stuff. In other words, PD and ED exist to express and differentiate character archetypes. Energy types have strong energy attacks and energy defenses, but are often weaker against physical attacks; and vice versa for the physical types.

 

In fantasy, the most obvious character breakdown is magic vs mundane. Most fantasy game systems have the concept of saving throw, magic resistance, and so forth. This does not really exist in Fantasy Hero except in the sense of Power Defense, which probably should be a characteristic but instead is an obscure-ish power that is rarely taken. The 6e books even suggest creating a new stat for magic resistance in one of the toolkitting comments.

 

So anyway my a-ha moment was that ED could be used to represent magic, while PD represents non-magic. In other words, if an attack is non-magical then it is PD regardless of whether we'd call it energy or not. And if an attack is magical then it is ED, regardless of whether it is fire or stone or whatever. Doing this would accomplish the whole magical defense notion without resorting to houseruling it in or trying to shoehorn power defense or some limited version of PD/ED. It is my experience that only one player will bother with that stuff, the one whose character concept relates to it, and everyone else goes with the default build. So to make it apply to everyone, it has to be part of the default stuff that everyone buys. PD and ED are stuff nobody can ignore.

 

As an example of how this works: normal armor might protect against PD only yet be completely transparent to spells, with 0 ED, or maybe it only offers half protection against magic. Magical armor might be the reverse, with limited physical defense but very high ED. A globe of invulnerability to magic would have astronomical ED but no PD. A creature immune to physical attacks but susceptible to magic would have high PD but low ED, and a magic sword that does 2d6 to both normal and magical creatures would need to do BOTH types of damage at once. (Can you even do that? Buy damage twice, once for each type?)

 

Anyway, just tossing this out there. It seemed new and interesting to me, but maybe it is already a well-trodden road? I think the notion has a lot of promise, but would require building the setting and equipment and spells from the ground up to implement it properly. I'm thinking that, for fantasy anyway, losing the ability to express physical vs energy doesn't really have much impact, as pretty much the only energy attacks you'll ever encounter are magical anyway.

 

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

My personal thought is this:

 

The use of PD and ED as what they are now is my train of thought. I have seen many games in Fantasy progress into becoming a supers game later on, thus providing the need for Physical Defense and Energy Defense, not Non-Magical Defense and Magic Defense. Besides, even if you made ED become Magic Defense, it would cover the things that Power Defense does, so the cost would probably increase. Think about this: 

 

A wizard uses a Dispel: Fire Magic to defend against a lava golem. The lava golem has ED, so does the ED subtract from the effect roll? Does the golem need Power Defense to defend this? 

 

or 

 

A wizard uses a Drain: STUN to knock out an ice dragon before he gets frozen alive. The Dragon has ED, so does the ED subtract from the Drain score? Does the dragon need Power Defense to defend against this? 

 

 

I had two solutions to this. Either increase the cost of ED or just house rule out Power Defense. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Actually, in fantasy (and a few other genres like Superheroes or Sci Fi) PD and ED make a lot of sense.  You're going to face fire breathing dragons and lightning bolt hurling Wizards.  in a spy game or a street level cop game?  Not so much.

[Narf the Mouse]

Torches, fire arrows, heated sand, burning oil, catapulted casks of flaming oil, flasks of acid, That One PC who's gotten their hands on large quantities of two insulators and a water wheel...

 

Granted, most of it is Fire/Heat. But there is non-magic energy damage.

[Chris Goodwin]

So anyway my a-ha moment was that ED could be used to represent magic, while PD represents non-magic. In other words, if an attack is non-magical then it is PD regardless of whether we'd call it energy or not. And if an attack is magical then it is ED, regardless of whether it is fire or stone or whatever. Doing this would accomplish the whole magical defense notion without resorting to houseruling it in or trying to shoehorn power defense or some limited version of PD/ED. It is my experience that only one player will bother with that stuff, the one whose character concept relates to it, and everyone else goes with the default build. So to make it apply to everyone, it has to be part of the default stuff that everyone buys. PD and ED are stuff nobody can ignore.

 

 

I see your point.  Champions developed from the standpoint of a scientific worldview where there was, for instance, a need to differentiate between a punch and a laser beam.  If Fantasy Hero had been first, we might have had a different division.  

 

What would the hypothetical Magical Defense cover?  Magical fire, sure.  Transforms?  Magical dazzle attacks?  What about spells of Mental Blast, Mind Control, Telepathy?  

 

I remember Fantasy Hero 1e had a Defense effect, which covered Power Defense, Flash Defense (the Dazzle spell effect), and... was there anything else?  I can't remember if it had a separate Mental Defense effect or not.  But it didn't cover magically generated physical or energy attacks.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I remember Fantasy Hero 1e had a Defense effect, which covered Power Defense, Flash Defense

 

 

First edition Fantasy Hero was really interesting the way the powers were set up, with alternate names and groupings.  If it weren't for the effort to make characters transfer directly between settings as a generic system, it would be worth it to have a different set of powers and names like that.

 

I do like the idea of an alternate "Magic" defense, covering mystical attacks (as well as perhaps defenses against supernatural attacks) though.  Maybe Power Defense would cover that in a fantasy setting.

[Lucius]

and a magic sword that does 2d6 to both normal and magical creatures would need to do BOTH types of damage

at once. (Can you even do that? Buy damage twice, once for each type?)

Of course you can, but you end up "paying to suck" since if you bought 4d6 vs a defense, you do 4d6 damage subtracting a defense from it, but if you buy 2d6 vs one defense and 2d6 vs another defense you roll 4d6 and subtract TWO defenses instead of one.

If you are using 6th edition you can use Attack vs Alternate Defense and define the defense as "the lesser of" PD and ED.

 

Actually, in fantasy (and a few other genres like Superheroes or Sci Fi) PD and ED make a lot of sense. You're going to face fire breathing dragons and lightning bolt hurling Wizards. in a spy game or a street level cop game? Not so much.

Yes, but in almost ANY setting other than superhero, you are going to run into more physical than energy attacks - often far more.

 

The reason we have Physical and Energy Defense, costing exactly the same but separate, is because of Hero's roots in Champions.

 

If you're running a fantasy game where people get hit with energy as much as physical, I think that's unusual.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Defense

[bluesguy]

In fantasy, the most obvious character breakdown is magic vs mundane. Most fantasy game systems have the concept of saving throw, magic resistance, and so forth.

"Most" or do you just mean the 900 lb gorilla in the room - all the d20 fantasy game systems (DnD and its children/stepchildren)

 

This does not really exist in Fantasy Hero except in the sense of Power Defense, which probably should be a characteristic but instead is an obscure-ish power that is rarely taken.

 

In my game almost every mage makes sure to take power defense when creating magical protections.  They know there are 'creatures/magics' for which the only defense is power defense.

 

There are all kinds of ways to create magic systems in Hero.  Building one to replicate DnD (and it's childrent/stepchildren) is not particularly interesting IMO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The reason we have Physical and Energy Defense, costing exactly the same but separate, is because of Hero's roots in Champions.

 

If you're running a fantasy game where people get hit with energy as much as physical, I think that's unusual.

 

Most fantasy games, you're right, PD would be the most commonly encountered attack.  And that means few people are going to build up their ED (in fact, much armor would have lower ED than PD, such as plate).  For me, that's not a bug, that's a feature, because it lets magical attacks bypass people's best defenses and target lower defenses without even needing to pay a lot of points for it.  Sure, your axe does good damage, but Mhyrddn uses lightning, and your ED is half your PD!  It also makes special creature attacks more significant without needing to buy any special attacks.

[Markdoc]

This doesn’t seem like a great idea, at first glance. Not only do you have the fact that energy attacks can (and usually do) occur in Fantasy games, but these can be magical or mundane in nature. It seems a bit odd that mundane fire works against PD but magical fire works against ED. But for me, the bigger problem is game design/balance. Mental attacks like command spells or possession were designed with mental DEF in mind, not ED.

So that is not to say you can’t do “magic defence” – just that ED seems like a poor fit.

 

There seems to be two unrelated things in the original idea. First that ED is many cases is a neglected stat., which many people don’t buy up. Second is the idea of magic defence.

 

Problem 1 can simply be solved by houseruling that the game uses DEF, which costs 2 points per point of DEF and protects against both energy and physical damage. You can, if you wish buy DEF vs only physical or only energy with a limitation of -1. I actually used this approach in my ‘simple Hero’ skin for the game. It requires no changes to the system, and has the advantage that players will typically only have one defence number they need to keep track of (which is why I did it), since armour, by default, also has DEF.

 

Problem 2 can be solved at the magic simulation level in multiple ways, depending on the way you want it to work.

If you want D&D style saving throws against magical attacks, the simplest solution I have found is “requires a skill vs skill roll, -3/4” based on the assumption that the target resists with a CHA-based roll appropriate to the spell type (for example, EGO vs mental attacks, CON vs attacks that target bodily function, DEX vs targetted attacks, etc).

 

If you want a universal magical defence, you can require magic to take AVAD, or simply define magic as an AVAD attack at a -0 penalty and then define what the defence will be.

 

etc.

 

You'd need to build your magic system to fit, but then, as things stand, you have to do that anyway.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

 

What bugs me about Physical and Energy Defense is that the cost is the same although in almost every case except maybe (maybe) superheroes, the PD is more useful.

 

They should have been unified, as Markdoc is proposing. But if a player really wants to buy DEF good only either physical or energy, the Limitation should be based on how common the category is in that particular game.

Certainly the default shouldn't be -1 for either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Defense

[eepjr24]

Meh, I don't like the idea because it seems like you are forcing something. If attacks versus ED are less common folks will buy less of it, self balancing the price. If ED is never bought, someone or something will figure out that fire / acid kills stuff good and the balance will shift again. 

 

In addition to the above points, what do you do about magic based PRE attacks / affects? I commonly use them for bardic spells, Command spells, and even lower level mind control type effects. Then you also need to figure out the Flash defense issue. And what about Change Environment? If you allow ED to defend against magic, does it negate the OCV and running penalties of my magical ice slick? Too many complications to figure out. I would consider a "Magic Defense" stat or the like before I would go down that road.

 

- E

[Markdoc]

What bugs me about Physical and Energy Defense is that the cost is the same although in almost every case except maybe (maybe) superheroes, the PD is more useful.

 

They should have been unified, as Markdoc is proposing. But if a player really wants to buy DEF good only either physical or energy, the Limitation should be based on how common the category is in that particular game.

Certainly the default shouldn't be -1 for either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Defense

 

It's a good point, but the -1 default limitation means that you are not actually making any rules changes, just bundling together PD and ED at the same price as in the core rules.

 

cheers, Mark

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

It's a good point, but the -1 default limitation means that you are not actually making any rules changes, just bundling together PD and ED at the same price as in the core rules.

The way you are describing is much like in FRED that you had to do buy things like +3 DEX (9 APs) Only for OCV (-1) 4 RPs. I personally hate the coupling of stats and figured stats as well, which is why I love 6E. I personally think that PD is more (in fact, much more) valuable than ED, especially since a lot of people use swords, bows, punches, etc, even in fantasy, so the -1 value seems off, even if you are trying to use the same thing. If you want a DEF stat, the value should alter from game to game, though I see Only for PD as like a -3/4, where a Only for ED would be more like a -1 1/4.  "Magic Defense" IMO is Power Defense and should be renamed as such. 

[Alcamtar]

Regarding the idea that Fantasy has a significant amount of ED, my point was that energy is usually a result of magic. Remove magic from fantasy and how many energy attacks are there? There is fire, which I would say is uncommon unless you're using D&D style greek fire or crazy trap setups on a regular basis. Otherwise there is not much, other than attacks by a few beasts... mostly dragons, which again means fire, though again if you have D&D type dragons you'll have cold and electricity which are energy. But apart from these -- and I would call all of these uncommon if not rare -- fantasy combat is almost all swords, stones, teeth, claws, crushing, rending...  Then again maybe I just tend toward the realistic and understated in my fantasy games.

 

Anyway it seems that it is only when you add magic that energy becomes a significant factor. And those beasts that have energy attacks are nearly all magical too: dragons, demons, elementals. The only type of critter that comes to mind that has a non-magical energy attack is the electric eel, which again is very uncommon in fantasy (which tends to downplay science and focus on mythical magical creatures instead). Hence my thought that energy basically means magic in a fantasy context.

 

Other genres have a lot of energy attacks: flamethrowers, dynamite, electricity, napalm, concussion bombs, sonics, radiation, lasers, etc. Low fantasy sans magic is nearly devoid of weaponized energy.

 

I don't think of ED as a dump stat. In my games it is usually within a few points of PD and I have sometimes wished they were combined into a single DEF stat (like CV used to be prior to 6E), because I had two stats with nearly identical values. When I first started Hero it seemed pretty cool but after a while ED seemed boring, like pointless clutter. Maybe I'm just not using it enough.

 

If you are using 6th edition you can use Attack vs Alternate Defense and define the defense as "the lesser of" PD and ED.

 

That's a nice solution for a combination attack.

 

I have seen many games in Fantasy progress into becoming a supers game later on, thus providing the need for Physical Defense and Energy Defense, not Non-Magical Defense and Magic Defense. Besides, even if you made ED become Magic Defense, it would cover the things that Power Defense does, so the cost would probably increase.

 

Ah, now this is an interesting thought!

[Manic Typist]

Well, first, magic is a substitute for advanced technology in fantasy settings. So the problem isn't fantasy- if you're running a low fantasy game that would be the same as a low tech non-fantasy game (historical, post-apoc, whatever). Those games would face the same issue- they don't have radiation/laser/sonic weapons either.

 

Of course, there's more situations that allow for ED in a low-magic fantasy game than you're giving it credit for- boiling/burning oil was the bane of many a besieger. Acid was also another weapon utilized by man and nature. Steam was also weaponized by both man and beast.

[Ninja-Bear]

Have you considered just creating a new stat called magic defense? Although different, your take isn't too out of the way so I say try it. If it doesn't work out then just go back to the regular pd/ed of RAW. I would just make sure that the players know in advance that you are using a house rule.

[Kesedrith]

I just have to ask: are energy attacks really that rare in most of your fantasy settings?  I use flaming oil, burning pitch, magical energy effects, heat, and cold all the time.  It sounds from the discussion that such things are a rarity in most of your games though?

 

That question asked, I do rather like the idea of "Magic Defense," and may add it as a new figured stat (yes, I like those), or make it a purchasable talent for use against things that are more nebulous as to whether they're energy or physical.  Sorry, but there's no doubt that a spell that shoots a cone of fire from the caster's finger is doing energy.  If it's a stone, it's doing physical.  Then there are times when it's less clear, such as a mystical bolt that simply damages the target, or the caster who can summon a spiritual blade from nothing.  Sure the former could be handled with ED and the latter PD, but thanks to this discussion, I'm wondering if that's really in flavor of the game where things that affect the spirit are an actual thing.  Thus perhaps add an MD stat based from EGO, or just handle it as Mental Defense and everyone has that basic level.  It's certainly something to consider.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The differentiation between PD and ED can be pretty stark in a Fantasy game, as elemental attack forms are actually quite common.  So I don't have any issues with it.

[Pegasus40218]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't necessarily see a problem with there being a rarity of energy attacks that would go against ED in a particular campaign.  Simply put, players will see a lack of utility in purchasing ED, and won't (in their opinion) "waste" points on it.  As the GM, this gives you some options to put them against something that, while not overly powerful (simply based upon points) is a real threat simply because it uses attacks that go against weaker defenses.  If you've played a supers game, it's like throwing a mentalist at the brick in the group.  The players will have to adjust their strategy rather than simply trying to use brute force as a solution to everything...Of course, this could go one of two ways:  1)  the players make adjustments, expand their thinking, and the game is enhanced, or 2) the players refuse to adjust and you risk a TPK.

[Wardsman]

This weekend, I was contemplating PD vs ED. My game has always been Fantasy Hero, rarely so much as looking sideways at other genres, and the PD/ED divide always struck me as artificial. Something left over from superheroes, but needless clutter in a fantasy game, where PD and ED are listed separately but typically closely balanced if not identical. My ideas about supers are probably naive, neither reading comics much nor having ever played a supers game, but it seems to me that energy projectors are all about energy (duh!) while bricks and martial artists are all about physical stuff. In other words, PD and ED exist to express and differentiate character archetypes. Energy types have strong energy attacks and energy defenses, but are often weaker against physical attacks; and vice versa for the physical types.

 

In fantasy, the most obvious character breakdown is magic vs mundane. Most fantasy game systems have the concept of saving throw, magic resistance, and so forth. This does not really exist in Fantasy Hero except in the sense of Power Defense, which probably should be a characteristic but instead is an obscure-ish power that is rarely taken. The 6e books even suggest creating a new stat for magic resistance in one of the toolkitting comments.

Uh no!

Most fantasy games DO NOT have saving throws. The First to throw that out was Rune Quest in the 1970's. Now if all you are  familiar with is D&D and it's knock offs (Tunnels & Trolls, pathfinder, etc) I understand your confusion.

But most other system run away from Saving throws that I play.

 

"So anyway my a-ha moment was that ED could be used to represent magic, while PD represents non-magic. In other words, if an attack is non-magical then it is PD regardless of whether we'd call it energy or not. And if an attack is magical then it is ED, regardless of whether it is fire or stone or whatever. Doing this would accomplish the whole magical defense notion without resorting to houseruling it in or trying to shoehorn power defense or some limited version of PD/ED. It is my experience that only one player will bother with that stuff, the one whose character concept relates to it, and everyone else goes with the default build. So to make it apply to everyone, it has to be part of the default stuff that everyone buys. PD and ED are stuff nobody can ignore."

 

So metal armor should defend against non-magical lightning? Or regular Fire or cold?

One of the things that drove me nuts in D&D was the inability to separate energy damage (extreme cold or heat) from physical damage.

And no plate doesn't help with that. Cloth and leather does with cold. Leather can when handling hot items . Say a forge.

Why not use Arcane Defense. It is expensive but does what you want.

Arcane Defense is PD, ED, Ego Defense, Power Defense, and Flash rolled into one effect but it only works against magic.

 

I'm thinking of giving it to my mages as a figured based on ego along with the mana stat.

For Dwarves it is based on CON and might be resistant.

 

Your milage may vary.

 

 

 

[Wardsman]

The differentiation between PD and ED can be pretty stark in a Fantasy game, as elemental attack forms are actually quite common.  So I don't have any issues with it.

Molten pitch burning or not is a common castle defense weapon that would do mundane energy. So is boiling oil.

[Lucius]

 

In the course of their career, a fantasy character will probably meet energy attacks in the form of dragon breath, lightning spells, boiling oil, or getting hit with a torch, or any number of other attacks that Hero classifies as energy.

 

 

But the confrontation with the dragon probably featured getting hit by fangs, claws, or tail, as well as flame. The siege scenario may have included being attacked with boiling oil but probably also included being attacked by a lot of arrows, spears, and swords.

 

And in between those two combats there were probably a dozen encounters with barroom brawls, bandit ambushes, wild beasts, jousts, duels, and marauding monsters, in which there were lots of physical attacks and no energy attacks.

 

"Common" is a relative term. Energy attacks are common in the sense that any character can reasonably expect to meet them, but I maintain that physical attacks are still MORE common in most campaigns by an order of magnitude at least.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A combat encounter with a palindromedary

[eepjr24]

I don't disagree with any of that, Lucius. But if players don't see a use in ED, they don't have to spend points on it? And in the long run, it's probably a wash if you spend less. Some things (most armor, spells, etc) provide equal defense for both, so not having your personal ED bought up will likely have little effect.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

In the course of their career, a fantasy character will probably meet energy attacks in the form of dragon breath, lightning spells, boiling oil, or getting hit with a torch, or any number of other attacks that Hero classifies as energy.

 

 

But the confrontation with the dragon probably featured getting hit by fangs, claws, or tail, as well as flame. The siege scenario may have included being attacked with boiling oil but probably also included being attacked by a lot of arrows, spears, and swords.

 

And in between those two combats there were probably a dozen encounters with barroom brawls, bandit ambushes, wild beasts, jousts, duels, and marauding monsters, in which there were lots of physical attacks and no energy attacks.

 

"Common" is a relative term. Energy attacks are common in the sense that any character can reasonably expect to meet them, but I maintain that physical attacks are still MORE common in most campaigns by an order of magnitude at least.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A combat encounter with a palindromedary

Molten pitch whether burning or not is a factor in medieval warfare. So is flaming arrows. Boiling oil  is also very common.

I would argue in low fantasy more common than typical fantasy attacks. 

 

In real world there things that can take a lot physical punishment but not as much energy. Wood, which is used in palisades and defenses in a fantasy setting is one. Having a High PD defense wall stand up better to non magical fire because you think magic only attacks energy is silly to me.

Or the notion that the thief in leathers who has a ring of fire resistance (+5 ed vs heat and fire) isn't protected from getting hit by boiling oil because that is mundane and is resisted by PD. OOPS!

 

Sorry use arcane defense let them get it cheap at x3. Problem solved.