Wheels Within Wheels (or, Summoning Nested Stuff)

[Alcibiades]

I want to have my undead pirate captain by able to summon a Ghost Ship. The Ghost Ship is manned by a Ghost Crew and contains 4 Spectral Lifeboats, all of which come with the ship.

 

Let's say I buy the Ghost Crew as an AI (alternatively I could do it as a couple hundred Followers). To summon the Ship + 4 Lifeboats + AI + another 4 AIs (to man the lifeboats), do I have to buy 3 different Summons all linked together, or can I buy one Summon of the main ship + x9 entities summoned, despite them having 4 different writeups?

 

I'm really not sure how to do this.

 

Thanks all!

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I would build this as a summon with the advantage Expanded Class of Beings at the +1/2 Level (Limited Group). Also, you may want to take Amicable. 

[Alcibiades]

I would build this as a summon with the advantage Expanded Class of Beings at the +1/2 Level (Limited Group). Also, you may want to take Amicable. 

 

Doesn't that let you summon this, that, or the other? Four Ghost Ships for example. Whereas I want the ship, with the lifeboats on it, and all its "crew," all together.

 

EDIT: while we're at it, summoned vehicles all have to be built with Amicable at the +1 level, I think. Or, if it's crewed and/or has an AI, do you buy Amicable for them instead?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Doesn't that let you summon this, that, or the other? Four Ghost Ships for example. Whereas I want the ship, with the lifeboats on it, and all its "crew," all together.

You could also add the multiple beings adder that allows you to summon more than one being. 

[Alcibiades]

You could also add the multiple beings adder that allows you to summon more than one being. 

 

That's my question though. I thought that the multiple beings adder meant more of the same kind of thing. Can I summon several different kinds of things at the same time in this way?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

That's my question though. I thought that the multiple beings adder meant more of the same kind of thing. Can I summon several different kinds of things at the same time in this way?

Yes, If you take the Expanded Class of Beings advantage. 

 

From 6E1 291 

 

"If the Summoner can Summon more than one being at a time, every being Summoned doesn’t have to be of the same type if the Summoner can Summon from an Expanded Class."

[Christopher]

Actually there are special provision in the rules for just these cases. 6E2 191, Personel:

"A Base or Vehicle can have personnel associated with its operation — workers, guards, chauffeurs, pets, even robots. Build personnel with the
Follower rules. As with Computers, calculate the
cost of the Followers separately and then add it to
the cost of the Base or Vehicle after you calculate
that cost."

 

Example Computer:

"Defender buys a 100-point Computer
for his Base (costing 100 /5 = 20 points). When he
finishes building his Base, he’ll add this 20 points
onto the Base’s final cost."

 

Basically you are making a "Compound Character sheet", that consist of the proper base and the crew/AI. Like you would a normal compound power.

You could summon/pay for it in one go.

However one issue is also differing modifiers:

By RAW a Vehicle or Base needs the most expensive "Loyal" Advantages because it is loyal by being not alive.

 

The main issue with nesting Followers/Bases/vehicles is this:

Isn't the vehicle/personel useable without the Base? If so you should not get the cost recduction twice (once for buying a Follower on teh Base Sheet, anotehr time for buying the base). That would get you follower for 1/5 of the normal cost (1/25th of the full cost),

 

If the Crew is statically bound to the ship then we may think about nesting them. More likely you would jsut buy the ship with no need for a dedciated crew or an AI. Or rather you would buy the Crew as if it was the Mind of the Ship, so the Ship was a proper Character. You can do some stuff using Usable on Nearby Movement Powers.

[Alcibiades]

Actually there are special provision in the rules for just these cases. 6E2 191, Personel:

"A Base or Vehicle can have personnel associated with its operation — workers, guards, chauffeurs, pets, even robots. Build personnel with the

Follower rules. As with Computers, calculate the

cost of the Followers separately and then add it to

the cost of the Base or Vehicle after you calculate

that cost."

 

Example Computer:

"Defender buys a 100-point Computer

for his Base (costing 100 /5 = 20 points). When he

finishes building his Base, he’ll add this 20 points

onto the Base’s final cost."

 

Basically you are making a "Compound Character sheet", that consist of the proper base and the crew/AI. Like you would a normal compound power.

You could summon/pay for it in one go.

However one issue is also differing modifiers:

By RAW a Vehicle or Base needs the most expensive "Loyal" Advantages because it is loyal by being not alive.

 

The main issue with nesting Followers/Bases/vehicles is this:

Isn't the vehicle/personel useable without the Base? If so you should not get the cost recduction twice (once for buying a Follower on teh Base Sheet, anotehr time for buying the base). That would get you follower for 1/5 of the normal cost (1/25th of the full cost),

 

If the Crew is statically bound to the ship then we may think about nesting them. More likely you would jsut buy the ship with no need for a dedciated crew or an AI. Or rather you would buy the Crew as if it was the Mind of the Ship, so the Ship was a proper Character. You can do some stuff using Usable on Nearby Movement Powers.

 

What I finally decided to do is to build a compound power out of 3 Summons: Summon Ghost Ship + Summon 4 Lifeboats + Summon AI. Then I built the "crew" as Powers for the ship itself -- Telekinesis (using the artificial gravity writeup in TUV as a guide), Clairsentience (based on the "internal monitors" power in TUV), a bunch of Blasts that are "muskets fired form the deck.

 

Something confuses me about the vehicle rules though. The artificial gravity power (which I am using as the model for my "skeleton crew" going through the ship moving things around) is supposed to apply to the whole ship, but it has no Area Affect (though it does have "Selective," which I can't get Hero Designer to apply to it*), On the other hand, as written both it and the Clairsentence power should be able to be used off the ship as well as within it, because neither have No Range or Limited Range. Weird.

 

* Hero Designer doesn't know the "Partial Coverage" limitation exists either. TUV is a 5ed book, so maybe this stuff dropped out of 6ed?

 

EDIT: wait, so if instead of buying the crew as powers (assuming they are bound to the ship) I actually buy them as Followers (1/5 points discount) then attach them to the ship's character sheet and buy them along with that, I get another 1/5 points discount? Is that right?

[eepjr24]

I never allow nested followers (or nested vehicles, bases, etc) to get more than a 1/5 discount. It just has way too much potential for abuse. Of course a GM can allow whatever they want.

[ghost-angel]

The other option is that the 'crew' are part of the Special Effect of the ghost shipping operating. You can simulate them defending the ship with Attack Powers that are limited only to within the ship itself.

[Alcibiades]

The other option is that the 'crew' are part of the Special Effect of the ghost shipping operating. You can simulate them defending the ship with Attack Powers that are limited only to within the ship itself.

 

I thought about this (floating cutlasses...). But I'm not sure how to do this, looking at sample powers in The Ultimate Vehicle as a guide. Like I said above, for some reason have any limitation forcing them to work only in the ship itself, or conversely an advantage allowing them to operate outside it. It's weird.

[Alcibiades]

I never allow nested followers (or nested vehicles, bases, etc) to get more than a 1/5 discount. It just has way too much potential for abuse. Of course a GM can allow whatever they want.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what the heck RAW is. I have no GM at present (I'm designing characters for fun).

[eepjr24]

6e1 288:

 

With the GM’s permission, a character can use Summon to “create” inanimate objects defined with Character Points (such as Vehicles and Bases). The cost depends on the total cost of the object, not its total cost divided by 5 (if that’s the standard method used to buy it).

[Alcibiades]

6e1 288:

 

OK, so if I have my Ghost Ship at 185 points, a Ghost Lifeboat at 20 points (4x Lifeboats = 30 points), a 20-point AI that is the gestalt mind of the crew, and a crew of 45 220-point Skeleton Crewmen at 74 points, I can roll them all together into one 309-point composite character sheet (as per what Chistopher said above) and Summon them as follows:

 

Summon 1 309-point Fully Equipped Creepy Ghost Ship, Amicable (Slavishly Loyal; +1), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Turn; -1 1/4) 45 points Real Cost

 

Is that right and rules-legal?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Keep in mind that summoning inanimate objects probably ought to be considered a bit differently than creatures.  A lifeboat has no willpower and is incapable of fighting back, nor does it have any sense of loyalty or amicability.  So the time limits and difficulty of summoning is going to be a bit different than a creature.  I recommend picking a set time of service for each level of amicability and have it remain until that time, then vanish unless re-summoned before the time limit is up. For example: no amicability: 20 minutes service; first level: 1 hour, etc.

[eepjr24]

For simplicity, your math works fine. As Christopher outlined there may be other reasons to separate them out (loyalty, differing circumstances, etc). 

 

- E

[ghost-angel]

Keep in mind that summoning inanimate objects probably ought to be considered a bit differently than creatures.  A lifeboat has no willpower and is incapable of fighting back, nor does it have any sense of loyalty or amicability.  So the time limits and difficulty of summoning is going to be a bit different than a creature.  I recommend picking a set time of service for each level of amicability and have it remain until that time, then vanish unless re-summoned before the time limit is up. For example: no amicability: 20 minutes service; first level: 1 hour, etc.

 

By the book, Amicability is required at the +1 level for inanimate objects, and will stay around for as long as it needs to be used for.

[Steve]

How would an Automaton fit into this? It's not inanimate, but I can't see it deciding to wander away or fall apart when it's number of tasks is used up.

[Christopher]

How would an Automaton fit into this? It's not inanimate, but I can't see it deciding to wander away or fall apart when it's number of tasks is used up.

The construct is only temporary. Only so long a Chesterfield Sofa can jump across plains on the prehistoric earth before the animating power runs out.

It does not mater if the Automaton Build is a Skeleton, a Robot or a animated Sofa. The energy conservation laws and entrophy still apply even to superheroic settings.

 

Regarding original Question:

In hero you build Powers that model the Game effect. So what is the Game Effect supposed to be?

The special effect is clear - "summon a ghost ship with ghost crew and ghost lifeboats". But the game effect could be anywhere between totally broken/unfeasibly expensive (a vehicle plus a large crew). Or just slapping Usable by Nearby on any Movement Power.

[Alcibiades]

What I wound up doing is buying a Summon for the ship, and then buying the ship itself a Summon to animate the dead who will crew it. This actually was a lot, lot cheaper than buying Telekinesis, Clairsentience, and RKA to simulate the crew and a lot, lot cheaper than buying them all as followers, and I like the image of skeletons lying akimbo on the ground until the ship's AI animates them and they knit themselves together, rising up to,man the cannons or repel a boarding action...

[DasBroot]

Summons using Summons is one of the biggest traps there is in the Hero game system - for exactly the reasons you pointed out.  It technically works (I thought there was a sentence about summons not being able to buy summon but I'm unable to find it) but I doubt you'd find a GM around that would vet it.

 

The road to hell is paved with a Summoned Shield Helicarrier Summoning a dozen dropships that Summon a dozen Agents. 

[Christopher]

Summons using Summons is one of the biggest traps there is in the Hero game system - for exactly the reasons you pointed out.  It technically works (I thought there was a sentence about summons not being able to buy summon but I'm unable to find it) but I doubt you'd find a GM around that would vet it.

 

The road to hell is paved with a Summoned Shield Helicarrier Summoning a dozen dropships that Summon a dozen Agents. 

I would simply prohibit it on the grounds of there being a rule against this for stuff nested in bases.

And that Summon/Duplication/Multiform/Follower/Vehicle/Base are basically the same base power with slightly different modifiers/end results. See here, near the end of the OP.

They all share a 1/5 price reduction. Similar enough to just consider them the same for limiations about combinations under common sense

[g3taso]

What I wound up doing is buying a Summon for the ship, and then buying the ship itself a Summon to animate the dead who will crew it. This actually was a lot, lot cheaper than buying Telekinesis, Clairsentience, and RKA to simulate the crew and a lot, lot cheaper than buying them all as followers, and I like the image of skeletons lying akimbo on the ground until the ship's AI animates them and they knit themselves together, rising up to,man the cannons or repel a boarding action...

Post it!

[Alcibiades]

Post it!

 

I actually changed my mind after reading the criticism of the Summon inside a Summon idea in this thread and instead bought the crew as Telekinesis Selective Fine Manipulation (there doesn't seem to be any way to do this in HD, although vehicles in TUV have it), Clairsentience, and an HKA Selective to represent ghostly cutlasses repelling boarders.

 

I'm not sure if the final build is actually book-legal, but it's based on the Telekinesis Selective example used throughout The Ultimate Vehicle (which itself never seems to explain how this works).

I would upload the HD files if I could figure out how to do that.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Alcibiades