DasBroot Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 A player is trying to build a barrier power that only works against a limited class of enemies (the undead in this example, but it could be anything). The intention is for the character to be able to attack through it and I've come up with two builds for the power: The limitation works easily enough - anything not undead simply ignores the barrier. The grey area becomes what's needed for the character to be able to attack through it. I lean towards build 1 - despite the presence of the limitation the character will need to take one way transparent for he and his team to attack through it. 38 Barrier 8 PD/8 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4), One-Way Transparent (all attacks; +1) (76 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8 As such it's ... not a great power. It's a 14 dc game and it's rare for anything to attack the characters with less than 10 DC (it will have little to no effect against their defences). Build 2 basically says 'well, you're not undead so the power doesn't affect you'. As such it's very strong (but not insurmountably - they do face foes that can overcome that kind of resistance. Still, it's largely an 'undead need not apply' button.) It triggers my 'disadvantages shouldn't be advantages' sense. 40 Barrier 18 PD/18 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8 I like the idea of the power but the line between useless and borderline overpowered is very narrow. Any thoughts or suggestions on how to build/balance it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 I'm pretty sure this came up in 5e with Force Wall as well. Try searching the forums that way to see the options. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Anderson Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 Limited Power: Limited Class of Targets (-X, where X is dependent upon how prevalent that class of target is). Like, Only vs. Women would be X = 1 and Only vs. Dwarves would be an X = 1/2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 APG II Page 23 has the proper rules for that for 6E. "At the GM’s option, a character can create apower to prevent a specific type of being fromentering an area by buying Barrier with enoughdefense to routinely resist the being’s standardattacks (see the HSB) and applying the LimitationOnly Works Against [specific Type Of Being]. ThisLimitation is worth -1 for a Very Limited category of beings (fire demons, vampires), -½ for aLimited category of beings (demons, undead), and-¼ for a Slightly Limited category of beings (Evilcreatures). Then, by applying the Absolute EffectRule, the GM can declare that the Barrier is totallyimpenetrable to that category of beings. They can’tpass through it (assuming it has Physical Defense),and their attacks cannot pass through it or damageit at all. This is most appropriate when the powerhas Limitations that restrict how often or easily itcan be used (such as Charges, Costs Endurance tomaintain, Time Limit, or the like)." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 Alternatively why not use TK to stop them? Or an alternative version of turning that uses a high amount of PRE to keep them at bay? - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 I would assume that this barrier is also meant to stop their attacks (including ranged). TK wouldn't do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealone Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 I lean towards build 1 - despite the presence of the limitation the character will need to take one way transparent for he and his team to attack through it. 38Barrier 8 PD/8 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4), One-Way Transparent (all attacks; +1) (76 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8 As such it's ... not a great power. It's a 14 dc game and it's rare for anything to attack the characters with less than 10 DC (it will have little to no effect against their defences). Build 2 basically says 'well, you're not undead so the power doesn't affect you'. As such it's very strong (but not insurmountably - they do face foes that can overcome that kind of resistance. Still, it's largely an 'undead need not apply' button.) It triggers my 'disadvantages shouldn't be advantages' sense. 40 Barrier 18 PD/18 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8 The disadvantage is legit in both builds, but only the GM can decide if 'vs Undead Only' is -1 ... or if they are so common in his game that -1/2 is more appropriate. That said, build 1 is drastically more powerful than build 2 from a team perspective because it allows the power's user to stave off undead for a team while the team can attack them with impunity ... until such time as the barrier drops, in which case the power's user simply erects another one. If you're concerned about balance for either build, one option might be requiring concentration throughout the power's use ... such that the character must make a conscious choice to rely heavily on the power as a defense against undead ... and can only move so much and react to a limited degree when using the power. That would work for either build, as would limiting either to a small number of charges. Food for thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted April 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 APG II Page 23 has the proper rules for that for 6E. "At the GM’s option, a character can create a power to prevent a specific type of being from entering an area by buying Barrier with enough defense to routinely resist the being’s standard attacks (see the HSB) and applying the Limitation Only Works Against [specific Type Of Being]. This Limitation is worth -1 for a Very Limited category of beings (fire demons, vampires), -½ for a Limited category of beings (demons, undead), and -¼ for a Slightly Limited category of beings (Evil creatures). Then, by applying the Absolute Effect Rule, the GM can declare that the Barrier is totally impenetrable to that category of beings. They can’t pass through it (assuming it has Physical Defense), and their attacks cannot pass through it or damage it at all. This is most appropriate when the power has Limitations that restrict how often or easily it can be used (such as Charges, Costs Endurance to maintain, Time Limit, or the like)." That's pretty cool and I'll use it to build a 'sanctuary', but it does rely on ... The disadvantage is legit in both builds, but only the GM can decide if 'vs Undead Only' is -1 ... or if they are so common in his game that -1/2 is more appropriate. That said, build 1 is drastically more powerful than build 2 from a team perspective because it allows the power's user to stave off undead for a team while the team can attack them with impunity ... until such time as the barrier drops, in which case the power's user simply erects another one. At least half of what they fight isn't undead so I used the 'half its effectiveness -1' guideline. The weakness (or strength) of build one is that its defence (8) is no match for practically any undead (save mooks) they occassionally battle - which range from 10 to 18 body per attack. The team really wouldn't get to capitalize on his one-way attack advantage at all. Hence the fine line between 'nearly useless' (8) and 'nope' (18). I think I'll go with this for them: Barrier 4 PD/4 ED, 14 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4), One-Way Transparent (all attacks; +1) (79 Active Points); Limited Power - Only Works Against the Undead; -1) Still pretty 'zombie mook proof', can take two 10 body hits instead of no 10 body hits, will stop a single attack up to 18 body from a powerful agent or villain. In most situations that will mean one phase of 'free shots' for the team (sometimes two), which is pretty good in my books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 Back in 2011, I asked a related question in the Rules Questions forum. http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/82229-barrier-versus-class-of-beings/ If a Barrier is bought with Only Works Against [specific Type Of Being] (APG2 23), is the Barrier Transparent against everyone else, or 0 PD/0 ED against everyone else. e.g. if a human warrior encounters a Barrier, Only Works Against Demons, can he walk through it or does he have to force his way through its BODY, destroying it in the process. Re: Barrier Versus Class of Beings If a Barrier’s built using the rules on APG2 23 to only work against a specific type of being (e.g., only demons, only goblins, only Evil persons), the Barrier in effect simply does not exist for other types of beings. They can move through it freely, attack through it without hindrance, and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted April 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 Interesting ... by that ruling the one-way advantage wouldn't be needed if I built it using the APG rules up thread. Definitely would be an 'undead need not apply' power at that point at 80 ap but I like the mechanic. I'll just cap the PD/ED at 15 and give it 5 body to keep it somewhat sane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealone Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 Good info, Armitage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.