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Barrier vs limited class of foes


DasBroot

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A player is trying to build a barrier power that only works against a limited class of enemies (the undead in this example, but it could be anything).  The intention is for the character to be able to attack through it and I've come up with two builds for the power:

 

The limitation works easily enough - anything not undead simply ignores the barrier.  The grey area becomes what's needed for the character to be able to attack through it.

 

I lean towards build 1 - despite the presence of the limitation the character will need to take one way transparent for he and his team to attack through it. 

 

 

38

Barrier 8 PD/8 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4), One-Way Transparent (all attacks; +1) (76 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8

 

As such it's ... not a great power.  It's a 14 dc game and it's rare for anything to attack the characters with less than 10 DC (it will have little to no effect against their defences).

 

Build 2 basically says 'well, you're not undead so the power doesn't affect you'.  As such it's very strong (but not insurmountably - they do face foes that can overcome that kind of resistance.  Still, it's largely an 'undead need not apply' button.) It triggers my 'disadvantages shouldn't be advantages' sense. 

 

40 Barrier 18 PD/18 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8

 

I like the idea of the power but the line between useless and borderline overpowered is very narrow.  

 

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to build/balance it?

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APG II Page 23 has the proper rules for that for 6E.

"At the GM’s option, a character can create a
power to prevent a specific type of being from
entering an area by buying Barrier with enough
defense to routinely resist the being’s standard
attacks (see the HSB) and applying the Limitation
Only Works Against [specific Type Of Being]. This
Limitation is worth -1 for a Very Limited category of beings (fire demons, vampires), -½ for a
Limited category of beings (demons, undead), and
-¼ for a Slightly Limited category of beings (Evil
creatures). Then, by applying the Absolute Effect
Rule, the GM can declare that the Barrier is totally
impenetrable to that category of beings. They can’t
pass through it (assuming it has Physical Defense),
and their attacks cannot pass through it or damage
it at all. This is most appropriate when the power
has Limitations that restrict how often or easily it
can be used (such as Charges, Costs Endurance to
maintain, Time Limit, or the like)."

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I lean towards build 1 - despite the presence of the limitation the character will need to take one way transparent for he and his team to attack through it. 

 

 

38

Barrier 8 PD/8 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4), One-Way Transparent (all attacks; +1) (76 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8

 

As such it's ... not a great power.  It's a 14 dc game and it's rare for anything to attack the characters with less than 10 DC (it will have little to no effect against their defences).

 

Build 2 basically says 'well, you're not undead so the power doesn't affect you'.  As such it's very strong (but not insurmountably - they do face foes that can overcome that kind of resistance.  Still, it's largely an 'undead need not apply' button.) It triggers my 'disadvantages shouldn't be advantages' sense. 

 

40 Barrier 18 PD/18 ED, 1 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4) (80 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (vs Undead Only; -1) 8

 

 

The disadvantage is legit in both builds, but only the GM can decide if 'vs Undead Only' is -1 ... or if they are so common in his game that -1/2 is more appropriate.

 

That said, build 1 is drastically more powerful than build 2 from a team perspective because it allows the power's user to stave off undead for a team while the team can attack them with impunity ... until such time as the barrier drops, in which case the power's user simply erects another one.

 

If you're concerned about balance for either build, one option might be requiring concentration throughout the power's use ... such that the character must make a conscious choice to rely heavily on the power as a defense against undead ... and can only move so much and react to a limited degree when using the power.  That would work for either build, as would limiting either to a small number of charges.

 

Food for thought...

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APG II Page 23 has the proper rules for that for 6E.

"At the GM’s option, a character can create a power to prevent a specific type of being from entering an area by buying Barrier with enough defense to routinely resist the being’s standard attacks (see the HSB) and applying the Limitation Only Works Against [specific Type Of Being]. This Limitation is worth -1 for a Very Limited category of beings (fire demons, vampires), -½ for a Limited category of beings (demons, undead), and -¼ for a Slightly Limited category of beings (Evil

creatures). Then, by applying the Absolute Effect Rule, the GM can declare that the Barrier is totally impenetrable to that category of beings. They can’t pass through it (assuming it has Physical Defense), and their attacks cannot pass through it or damage it at all. This is most appropriate when the power has Limitations that restrict how often or easily it can be used (such as Charges, Costs Endurance to maintain, Time Limit, or the like)."

 

That's pretty cool and I'll use it to build a 'sanctuary', but it does rely on ... 

 

The disadvantage is legit in both builds, but only the GM can decide if 'vs Undead Only' is -1 ... or if they are so common in his game that -1/2 is more appropriate.

 

That said, build 1 is drastically more powerful than build 2 from a team perspective because it allows the power's user to stave off undead for a team while the team can attack them with impunity ... until such time as the barrier drops, in which case the power's user simply erects another one.

 

At least half of what they fight isn't undead so I used the 'half its effectiveness -1' guideline.

 

The weakness (or strength) of build one is that its defence (8) is no match for practically any undead (save mooks) they occassionally battle - which range from 10 to 18 body per attack.  The team really wouldn't get to capitalize on his one-way attack advantage at all.  

 

Hence the fine line between 'nearly useless' (8) and 'nope' (18).

 

I think I'll go with this for them:

 

Barrier 4 PD/4 ED, 14 BODY (up to 4m long, 4m tall, and 1/2m thick), Affects Desolidified One Special Effect of Desolidification (Spectral; +1/4), One-Way Transparent (all attacks; +1) (79 Active Points); Limited Power  - Only Works Against the Undead; -1)

 

Still pretty 'zombie mook proof', can take two 10 body hits instead of  no 10 body hits, will stop a single attack up to 18 body from a powerful agent or villain. In most situations that will mean one phase of 'free shots' for the team (sometimes two), which is pretty good in my books.

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Back in 2011, I asked a related question in the Rules Questions forum.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/82229-barrier-versus-class-of-beings/

 

 

 

If a Barrier is bought with Only Works Against [specific Type Of Being] (APG2 23), is the Barrier Transparent against everyone else, or 0 PD/0 ED against everyone else. e.g. if a human warrior encounters a Barrier, Only Works Against Demons, can he walk through it or does he have to force his way through its BODY, destroying it in the process.

 

 

 

Re: Barrier Versus Class of Beings If a Barrier’s built using the rules on APG2 23 to only work against a specific type of being (e.g., only demons, only goblins, only Evil persons), the Barrier in effect simply does not exist for other types of beings. They can move through it freely, attack through it without hindrance, and so forth.
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Interesting ... by that ruling the one-way advantage wouldn't be needed if I built it using the APG rules up thread.  

 

Definitely would be an 'undead need not apply' power at that point at 80 ap but I like the mechanic.  I'll just cap the PD/ED at 15 and give it 5 body to keep it somewhat sane.

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