steph Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 just by curiosity. During your combat do you apply the rule to not exceed twice the DC of a weapon. Or if in your combat there are no limit to get more damage. Excuse my english not my first language Steph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 Generally speaking I toss it out in my games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 I use it. I also use weapon breakage, though, so more than doubling the damage will probably break the weapon anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 I use it and do the same as Outsider, possible weapon breaks. Magic weapons have a much lower chance of weapon break, but still subject to the same rules. Honestly, it may not be a perfect correlation, but at some point physics says that you cannot increase damage beyond the ability of the mass you are using to inflict it to absorb. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 I use it and do the same as Outsider, possible weapon breaks. Magic weapons have a much lower chance of weapon break, but still subject to the same rules. Honestly, it may not be a perfect correlation, but at some point physics says that you cannot increase damage beyond the ability of the mass you are using to inflict it to absorb. - E I don't find that justification very convincing. The nature of the target is more important. A decent steel blade will not break just because it's cut a man completely in two rather than just dinging his skull. Edit cos the timer went off and I hit "post" too soon... It's not just physics, either. Many damage adders are about skill and placement: extracting someone's liver in little slices doesn't put insuperable stresses on a fine rapier, but is just as lethal as a giant chopper crushing a ribcage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 During your combat do you apply the rule to not exceed twice the DC of a weapon. I have a house rule where you can continue increasing, but it doubles the strength minimum. so: 3 damage class weapon (1d6 KA) can be doubled for 5 points over the STR min each damage class; +15 STR gives you 2d6. To get the next d6 takes 10 strength per damage class; +30 strength gets you 3d6. and so on. And, of course, the weapon is damaging its self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 I don't find that justification very convincing. The nature of the target is more important. A decent steel blade will not break just because it's cut a man completely in two rather than just dinging his skull. Edit cos the timer went off and I hit "post" too soon... It's not just physics, either. Many damage adders are about skill and placement: extracting someone's liver in little slices doesn't put insuperable stresses on a fine rapier, but is just as lethal as a giant chopper crushing a ribcage. You last point is not really relevant, since multiple hits causing 1 body would not stress the sword via exceeding double the DC of the weapon. And to your first point, we can agree to disagree. Partly because I am not arguing about cutting a man in half, that does not take more than double the DC of a most (3 D6 will generally do the trick). And good steel blades do in fact break, especially depending on what you consider "good steel" and what era you are talking about. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 You last point is not really relevant, since multiple hits causing 1 body would not stress the sword via exceeding double the DC of the weapon. I wasn't talking about multiple hits, I was describing one damage roll in a picturesque fashion. A classic knife move strikes edge up on one side below the ribs, slices up the line of the lowest rib, driving the point into the heart. Turn the hand over, and cut back out down the other side. One attack up, down and out in less than a second. Hole in the heart, flap of abdominal muscle and blood everywhere. Dead target. At least 9DCs damage to get 16BOD for an instakill on a normal 8 BOD human, and no stress to speak of on the knife blade that would be capped at 4DC, which isn't enough to reduce a normal 8BOD human to bleeding-to-death in one go, for its absolute maximum damage if you restrict it to double base DCs. And to your first point, we can agree to disagree. Partly because I am not arguing about cutting a man in half, that does not take more than double the DC of a most (3 D6 will generally do the trick). And good steel blades do in fact break, especially depending on what you consider "good steel" and what era you are talking about. Yes, good steel blades sometimes break: when they hit armour, or another good steel blade, or if they've been mistreated previously (by being bashed against armour or a good steel blade). 3D6 doesn't cut anyone clean in two. It'll kill a normal bloke some of the time and leave them bleeding to death most of the time. Clean in two is a lot more than just "instakill". Damage to weapons should, IMO, be based on the damage they were going to do that was stopped by [whatever]. No cleaver in good condition ever broke just chopping off a few dozen cutlets. Talents like Weaponmaster, or DC-increasing CSLs should mitigate the damage done to a weapon when it's used because the extra control means it's avoiding the hard parts, or being turned so that shield rims don't nick the weapon edge etc. To my mind, the double-DC limit is actually most suited to Superheroic campaigns, per the example in "Toolkitting: Adding Damage", where an illustration of the potential "abuse" of the ability to add damage to a cheap HKA is presented. Most Heroic campaigns aren't going to be adding more than 5 or 6 DCs (Martial Strike, some extra STR and maybe a couple of spare CSLs put into damage or some Talent; maybe they get up to +8DC with a Haymaker) anyway, without magic, and magic is something of a rule unto itself. 6DC moves a knife up to 2 1/2 dice, which'll still never one-shot-kill a Hero who hasn't sold back some BOD, but means a razorgirl can reliably shiv mooks. And not having the weapon do damage to itself means she doesn't have to carry a lot of spares to account for breakage. And generally, using a bigger weapon will still increase the damage done, because of the way the STR Minima are set. Anyway, thanks for getting me to reread the adding damage and weapon damage rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted April 29, 2016 Report Share Posted April 29, 2016 I don't find that justification very convincing. The nature of the target is more important. A decent steel blade will not break just because it's cut a man completely in two rather than just dinging his skull. Edit cos the timer went off and I hit "post" too soon... It's not just physics, either. Many damage adders are about skill and placement: extracting someone's liver in little slices doesn't put insuperable stresses on a fine rapier, but is just as lethal as a giant chopper crushing a ribcage. If a player wants to be particularly deadly with a rapier (for example), he should buy Weapon Mastery or Deadly Blow. That adds base damage, and thus doesn't count towards the maximum of doubling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 If a player wants to be particularly deadly with a rapier (for example), he should buy Weapon Mastery or Deadly Blow. That adds base damage, and thus doesn't count towards the maximum of doubling. It doesn't? I'll have to re-read them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 It doesn't? I'll have to re-read them. Well, it is 3 DC standard,. and one of their examples is "Dagger Master"... and Daggers are 2 DC. I will have to reread and see if I am assuming things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroGM Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 I look at it this way. It's a cinematic game. A weapon breaking is a GM call to push the storyline or create a cliff hanger. A low fantasy game I could see using the double damage cap and breakage. Reality is good in small doses. That and I believe if a player pays the points he should get the benefit. Besides it goes both ways. That orc has a 25 star too and whoops @$$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 Well, it is 3 DC standard,. and one of their examples is "Dagger Master"... and Daggers are 2 DC. I will have to reread and see if I am assuming things... I just read Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and the Adding Damage section again, and it doesn't mention damage caps in the first two, nor Talents in the latter. It covers CSLs, Str, Advantages and movement, and they all seem to be covered by the double-DC suggestion, so the assumption on my part was that the Talents are also part of the cap. I can certainly see that the argument regarding the knifemaster could point the other way. Edit: I actually like the concept that Weaponmaster adds to the base damage; it means that a master of that weapon isn't often going to have to worry about exceeding the "double base" cap in a Heroic level game unless they're pulling some crazy stunt involving potentially suicidal movement speeds. Maybe combine it with "damage in excess of the putative cap's max damage" goes towards breakage... So, for example, a Knife Master (5DC base) would have to do in excess of 19 damage with their knife for it to suffer breakage under normal use... I think one of the reasons I don't like the breakage rules is that weapons seem particularly fragile. 4PD/6BOD for a sword seems very low considering you can make armour from the same material that's got more PD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 If a player wants to be particularly deadly with a rapier (for example), he should buy Weapon Mastery or Deadly Blow. That adds base damage, and thus doesn't count towards the maximum of doubling. The doubling damage rule was why 5e used the "floating DC adder" mechanic it did, which as I recall was a pretty controversial mechanical choice. I just read Weaponmaster, Deadly Blow, and the Adding Damage section again, and it doesn't mention damage caps in the first two, nor Talents in the latter. It covers CSLs, Str, Advantages and movement, and they all seem to be covered by the double-DC suggestion, so the assumption on my part was that the Talents are also part of the cap. I can certainly see that the argument regarding the knifemaster could point the other way. One issue Steve had in 6e was streamlining the damage adding rules. Tossing out the "can't more than double base damage" rule was a part of that. Since there was no more "can't do more than double damage with skill levels" limit, there was no reason for a handwavy talent that boosted "base damage" instead of "added damage", so the Weapons Master type talents could be build in a straightforward manner. Then we got the sidebar that maybe we didn't want to remove the "can't beat double base damage" rule after all. And now we get this confusion. Here's a thought. Since the first Fantasy Hero iteration, and Justice Inc. and Espionage before it, we had the "special gear is built from scratch" rule. If you wanted a special throwing knife that was a 2d6 RKA, you could not take a base throwing knife for free and just pay the extra cost. You paid the full 30 points (base) for a 2d6 RKA. Maybe, especially in a "cannot get past double damage with force (STR) or finesse (skill)" game, we actually live by the rule that you cannot exceed double damage of the base weapon - DONE. If you want to be that good with a rapier, you don't get there with just Martial Arts, STR and/or skill levels. You have to buy it from scratch. So if you want 2d6+1 base damage with a Rapier, you have to buy a 2d6+1 HKA (35 active points), OIF Rapier of Opportunity. Now you can add all the way up to 4 1/2d6 with any rapier. "That's too expensive for the effect"? Then maybe removing the "can't more than double" rule wasn't such a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 If you want to be that good with a rapier, you don't get there with just Martial Arts, STR and/or skill levels. You have to buy it from scratch. So if you want 2d6+1 base damage with a Rapier, you have to buy a 2d6+1 HKA (35 active points), OIF Rapier of Opportunity. Now you can add all the way up to 4 1/2d6 with any rapier. "That's to expensive for the effect"? Then maybe removing the "can't more than double" rule wasn't such a bad idea. So, to stick with the Rapier, you're really only paying "extra" for the first 3 DCs (the D6 that a money-rather-than-points-bought weapon gets you for zero points spent). I wonder whether having to spend those extra points, just to be able to make full use of your Martial Strike, CSLs-for-damage and Weaponmaster/Deadly blow combos (which can both both be bought multiple times for 3DC a time, and which stack...) which you've already paid points for, is really warranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 So, to stick with the Rapier, you're really only paying "extra" for the first 3 DCs (the D6 that a money-rather-than-points-bought weapon gets you for zero points spent). I wonder whether having to spend those extra points, just to be able to make full use of your Martial Strike, CSLs-for-damage and Weaponmaster/Deadly blow combos (which can both both be bought multiple times for 3DC a time, and which stack...) which you've already paid points for, is really warranted. If it's not, then why is it a bad idea to allow that martial strike, STR and CSL for damage combo to add more than 3 DC's? Oh, and the Weaponmaster/Deadly blow would become the 2d6 HKA, OIF Rapier of Opportunity, not augment it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2016 Report Share Posted April 30, 2016 If it's not, then why is it a bad idea to allow that martial strike, STR and CSL for damage combo to add more than 3 DC's? Oh, and the Weaponmaster/Deadly blow would become the 2d6 HKA, OIF Rapier of Opportunity, not augment it. I'm entirely unconvinced that it is a bad idea. The cap is only an optional rule after all. I'm even more convinced that there's no real rationale to it except to tone down lethality. I think I'm pretty comfortable with allowing Heroic level characters to ramp up their damage. 12 points for Weapon Master is a goodly chunk of a Heroic character's points, and a further 10 points for Martial Strike, +1DC and Weapon Element isn't trivial for a Heroic character either. Should there be a cap on the damage? Probably; cutting someone clean in half with a knife isn't very plausible. Adding Weapon Master to the base damage before doubling it to find the max seems to work well, in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 Body and Stun scores in my games stay within reasonable range so I observe DC maximums. Observing DC maximum of double the base DC allows you to scale the Defense of your enemies to your players appropriately and makes it easier to adjust the challenge level of an encounter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 I think we are conflating two different concepts here. One is "more than doubling the base damage". If we cannot, that dagger-wielding rogue is capped at 1d6+1 (absent special builds), even when he slips in from behind to stab his enemy in the kidneys with complete surprise. Perhaps he would be better off with penalty skill levels to offset hit location penalties, and a Naked Advantage AVLD to permit him to slip his blade through a chink in the enemy's armor, rather than building a DaggerMaster talent to make his daggers have 6 DC base damage. The second is a general DC maximum. If the game parameters set a maximum of 9 DCs, then our dagger wielding friend must abide by that. But so must that hulking brute with the Greatsword, and that spell-lobbing Wizard, neither of whom are held back from 10 DCs by a restriction to double base damage from a weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 Let's add a question no one ever seems to address. We have our Hulking Fighter Brute who has Martial Arts usable with blades, 25 STR and +8 levels with HTH combat. He has been stripped of his weapons, but has taken a dagger from the guard after escaping his cell. What, by the rules, prevents him making a Multiple Attack to simultaneously Stab his opponent with the dagger (capped at 1d6+1, so he doesn't use anything but the dagger and his Martial Arts, picking a maneuver that adds 2 DC), plus a Strike with his STR applying 25 STR + 4 DC's from his skill levels, doing 9d6 normal damage plus a 1d6+1 KA. Now, when he gets his Greatsword back, what prevents him including a 5d6 Strike on top of every swing of his Greatsword? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tholomyes Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 I had to dig through my book to figure out the rules on multiple/Combined attack, and to the best of my ability, in being able to parse the rules, It's fairly clear that Multiple Attack is an option here, at the cost of being a full phase, reducing him to half DCV and -2 OCV for whatever attack he makes second (and not even being able to make that second attack if he misses the first one). Combined attack is a bit trickier to parse. I looked through the rules in both 6e2 and CC, and couldn't find a definitive answer, and the APGs didn't seem to have anything either. My gut is that you can't 'double count' STR in a combined attack, much the same way that you can't combined attack twice with the same blast power, for example (which would require a Multiple attack, complete with Full Phase, 1/2 DCV, and associated other penalties), but beyond that, I don't know what the "correct" adjudication would be, by the book. The most logical, in the vein of similar designs in HERO system mechanics would be to treat it like a variable multipower of 25 AP: 5d6 Normal Attack in one slot, +1/2d6 Killing Attack in another, along with a 1/2 HKA that is the dagger's base damage (substituting the Greatsword's damage as required). You'd apply the points to either as you wish, so long as you followed the other rules of Combined attack. However this would solely be my adjudication of an ambiguous rules case, based on my understanding of some core design philosophies that went into HERO. Due to the ambiguities, though, I would not take the perspective of "What, by the rules, prevents it" without taking the perspective of "What, by the rules, allows it" in equal measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 In the case of a heroic character using a 'free' weapon like a dagger they could certainly attempt to punch a target simultaneously when they 'stab' with the dagger using the Combined Attack maneuver. However, since this is a 2 handed attack they should also follow all the rules for off-hand penalties as well. Combined Attack Using two or more powers or similar abilities (but not Combat/Martial Maneuvers or the like) once against a single target isn’t a Multiple Attack. It’s a Combined Attack, and counts as type of Strike. Therefore it has no OCV penalty, doesn’t halve the attacker’s DCV, and doesn’t take a Full Phase to perform. (Using two such powers multiple times against a single target, or against multiple targets, is a Multiple Attack and subject to all Multiple Attack rules.) HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 just by curiosity. During your combat do you apply the rule to not exceed twice the DC of a weapon. Or if in your combat there are no limit to get more damage. Excuse my english not my first language Steph Depends on how I view a particular campaign. If I intend for it to be very gritty and realistic as possible, then I use weapon doubling. If I intend for it to be more fantastic, then I go with campaign maximums and the weapon is simply special effect. Here is how I view it; Weapon Damage Doubling is about the weapons. You gain a sort balance by making sure that no weapon is ultra-powerful. For most cases, this rule makes a sort of sense. Going against an armored opponent is certainly easier with a larger weapon. A good side effect of this option is that when an enchanted item that increases the base damage is found, it is truly something special. Imagine that 1/2d6 Dagger going to a 1d6 Enchanted Dagger. Now the party assassin is dealing nearly the same damage output maximum as that warrior with his 1d6+1 Broadsword. The downside to this method is demonstrated in the few posts preceding mine, in that players are going to look for a way around that base damage clause. Campaign Maximums, on the other hand, are about the character concept. The character does damage and the weapon is simply the narrative vehicle by which that damage is dealt. In a Campaign Maximum campaign, the assassin with daggers can do just as much as the knight with his arming sword or the wizard with his spells. I often prefer this sort of campaign, as it takes away some of the complexity of worrying about what applies to base weapon damage versus total weapon damage. The downside to this method is that magical items are not special. As a narrative reward that helps a player focus his character, they are still valuable, but in terms of basic statistical worth, they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 In the case of a heroic character using a 'free' weapon like a dagger they could certainly attempt to punch a target simultaneously when they 'stab' with the dagger using the Combined Attack maneuver. However, since this is a 2 handed attack they should also follow all the rules for off-hand penalties as well. I don't envision him punching with one hand and stabbing with the other - don't impose a special effect on me He is thrusting the dagger into his opponent using all the strength and skill he possesses. It's a single strike which combines his STR and the dagger. We often hear (in Supers) the argument that 90 STR Grond hitting you with a thumbtack can only inflict so much damage with that little thumbtack. By the same logic, does the 90 STR behind it stop when the tack does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 1, 2016 Report Share Posted May 1, 2016 I don't envision him punching with one hand and stabbing with the other - don't impose a special effect on me He is thrusting the dagger into his opponent using all the strength and skill he possesses. It's a single strike which combines his STR and the dagger. We often hear (in Supers) the argument that 90 STR Grond hitting you with a thumbtack can only inflict so much damage with that little thumbtack. By the same logic, does the 90 STR behind it stop when the tack does? So given a heroic game with a character using a free weapon "dagger" you're arguing that with a one-handed "strike" the character can get the benefit of a Combined Attack to have a normal STR damage Strike and a HKA "dagger" Strike?! The special effect of the HKA in this case is a dagger which is free equipment under GM control. Let me add the relevant quoted section again. Combined Attack Using two or more powers or similar abilities (but not Combat/Martial Maneuvers or the like) In the case of Grond, if he's swinging at you with his full 90 STR the thumbtack is an afterthought. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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