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Triggered Defensive Actions


g3taso

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I was on the 6e board here and a question was raised about someone putting a trigger on a defensive action. I like the notion of a triggered Dodge, Dive for Cover or something similar. Mr Long felt this was kosher.

 
So how would you write up HD-style a Dodge, Dive for Cover or most intriguingly Roll With A Punch with a trigger? They don't have any point value, so I can't make it a naked advantage.
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For Dodge, pick the bonus DCV you believe their defensive act should grant and put a trigger on it.

For dive for cover, pick either a teleport (only to places he could run to) to a specific maximum distance and then the trigger takes care of it.  You'll probably need some kind of "to a nearby clear area" advantage to make the teleport go somewhere useful.

For roll with a punch, I'd call it a damage reduction, 25% or maybe 50% depending on how significant you figure it is.

 

To make sense to me, all the triggers would require limitations of "must be conscious and aware of attack" 

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My problem is that dodge and the others are free, specifically they don't have any points. So how can I provide a naked advantage to one of these and price it? If you could put a Hero-Designer style output of the power (combat maneuver) I would appreciate it.

 

 

Hang on. Duh!

 

So swap powers for combat maneuvers?

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The only thing about picking a DCV bonus and putting a trigger on it, you need some sort of limitation to make it worth it.  Because as it is, I can take DCV without Trigger and it just applies all the time.

This is true, although since its so situational, you can buy very small combat levels and use them which is much cheaper than straight 8 point DCV levels.  3 point "only for trigger" levels seems pretty appropriate.

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I've always had a question about trigger on powers like deflection (or teleport) - does zero action instant reset trump the 'can only activate and deactive a specific power once a turn' rule?

 

If it does then a zero action instantly resetting 3 meter teleport would make a character essentially untouchable in melee if it could fire every time someone attacked them.

 

A zero action instantly resetting Deflection would be insane and let a player go full Jedi (hacking through legions of enemies while simultaneously blocking all incoming blaster fire).  It would even get around the can't parry both melee and ranged attacks rule and eliminates the -2 per extra attack blocked (each attack is a different activation of the trigger so a new use of the power)

 

(A true munchkin would take the 'instant' limitation on the deflection to make it harder for the GM to pull the 'constant powers can only be turned on and off once per turn' clear cut rule.)

 

Basically anything that could make obsolete the abort to a defensive action mechanic should be looked at under a microscope by any GM no matter how 'legal' it might be (and I would hope that I'm missing something).

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How about this?

Dextrous Defense: Teleportation 3", Variable Special Effects (Dive For Cover, Dodge, *; +1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (13 Active Points)

 

This would appear to be kosher, allowing you to pick between Dodging, Diving for Cover or another (unnamed) maneuver.

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My problem is that dodge and the others are free, specifically they don't have any points. So how can I provide a naked advantage to one of these and price it? If you could put a Hero-Designer style output of the power (combat maneuver) I would appreciate it.

The core issue is finding a Pricetag.

HSMA actually has a section for "Power modifiers on Martial Arts Maneuvers". It is easy enough to rebuild the default dodge using HSMA rules and this get a AP cost of "the dodge Maneuver".

 

I've always had a question about trigger on powers like deflection (or teleport) - does zero action instant reset trump the 'can only activate and deactive a specific power once a turn' rule?

 

If it does then a zero action instantly resetting 3 meter teleport would make a character essentially untouchable in melee if it could fire every time someone attacked them.

 

A zero action instantly resetting Deflection would be insane and let a player go full Jedi (hacking through legions of enemies while simultaneously blocking all incoming blaster fire).  It would even get around the can't parry both melee and ranged attacks rule and eliminates the -2 per extra attack blocked (each attack is a different activation of the trigger so a new use of the power)

 

(A true munchkin would take the 'instant' limitation on the deflection to make it harder for the GM to pull the 'constant powers can only be turned on and off once per turn' clear cut rule.)

 

Basically anything that could make obsolete the abort to a defensive action mechanic should be looked at under a microscope by any GM no matter how 'legal' it might be (and I would hope that I'm missing something).

The rules explicitly mention the GM should increase the Trigger value for "Reset Immediately" cosntructs. And there is the ultime GM Answer: "No, it would break the game balance." I agree it will propably run into issues with the GM.

 

While it is theoretically possible to add Trigger (even instant reset, Free Action to activate) there might still be two issues:

1. You might be conflating special effect and game effect. Dodge is a Everyman Power describedable as: +3 DCV, Standart Action, Ends Phase, Can be taken on abort.

If you want to take out the activation time just buy: +3 DCV, not while using Dodge, Block or Dive for Cover(-?). Always dodging, no Trigger constructs nessesary.

2. The GM could simply say: Since you always have that +3 DCV I consider your DCV to be said 3 points higher for calculation of campaign Caps. So if you normalyl would be at the caps, you just punched yourself over the caps.

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The moment use of a trigger with instant auto-reset capability begins to cause a power to behave like a constant/continuous power with the area of effect surface advantage ... is when the builder of the power should build the power out as a constant/continuous power with the area of effect surface advantage.

 

An instantly-triggered, auto-reset dodge ... basically behaves like a continuous, area of effect surface dodge ... but the special effects are idiotic.  It amounts to 'always dodging', which is asinine.  Imagine someone with this walking down the street -- s/he'd be ducking and dodging instead of walking.

 

The smart GM will say, "buy Danger Sense and call it a day; that's why it exists."  After all, trigger is ripe for abuse ... and a good GM should shut it down hard if someone's trying to game the system with it.

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I like this idea, but I agree it is more subject to abuse than I really think I am comfortable with. It's supposed to be an advantage to offset light armor. 

 

+1 with DCV, Trigger Automatically Aborts To Any Dodge (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; +1/4) (6 Active Points)

 

It seems fair, as it's a modest bump to DCV but forces you to abort your action but as a consolation prize you have a readied action you can do something with when your next phase comes around. 

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In this case, I like the idea of drawbacks as well as compromises. For 6 points the character can Dodge the attack (like everyone can for free) with all that entails, but does it fast so when you go again you have a readied action. It's not really a straight Advantage, it's more like a PSL in that it is offsetting the penalties of Dodge.

 

Of course, it's not like I'm king decisionmaker here. I'm enjoying seeing how other people are conceptualizing this "evasion" style power. Love to see more.

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I don't understand how you can be forced to abort your action but then have a readied action on your next phase.

 

The power construct you proposed

 

 


+1 with DCV, Trigger Automatically Aborts To Any Dodge (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Full Phase to reset; +1/4) (6 Active Points)

 

sounds to me like you automatically Abort to Dodge at +1 DCV (total of +4).  I assume the trigger condition is "being attacked" which is pretty broad.  However, since it "automatically aborts to any dodge", that means you aborted and lose your next Phase.

 

Alternatively, it's just a +1 DCV any time you're attacked with the "aborting to dodge" being the special effect.  In this case, I have to agree with Christopher and ask, 'why not just buy +1 DCV'?  Have a +1 DCV all the time means you don't have to use an action to gain the benefit anyway.

 

Now, +3 DCV triggered by a successful Danger Sense roll would make more sense to me.  The special effect there would be that you sensed the attack and immediately dodged without having to abort.  It's also less game-breaking since it's not infallible.

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I don't understand how you can be forced to abort your action but then have a readied action on your next phase.

 

The power construct you proposed

 

 

 

sounds to me like you automatically Abort to Dodge at +1 DCV (total of +4).  I assume the trigger condition is "being attacked" which is pretty broad.  However, since it "automatically aborts to any dodge", that means you aborted and lose your next Phase.

 

Alternatively, it's just a +1 DCV any time you're attacked with the "aborting to dodge" being the special effect.  In this case, I have to agree with Christopher and ask, 'why not just buy +1 DCV'?  Have a +1 DCV all the time means you don't have to use an action to gain the benefit anyway.

 

Now, +3 DCV triggered by a successful Danger Sense roll would make more sense to me.  The special effect there would be that you sensed the attack and immediately dodged without having to abort.  It's also less game-breaking since it's not infallible.

 

You mean like this combo?

 

7    3)  Spider Reflexes part 1: +3 DCV (15 Active Points); Requires A Roll (PER roll; Must be made each Phase/use; Spidey Sense (Danger Sense); -1)

[Notes: Requires A Roll by default takes a -1 penalty to whatever roll is used for every 10 Active Points of the Power it is applied to (6e1 page 391).  A -1 penalty or a final 15- Roll in this instance.]

 

25    6)  Spidey Sense!: Danger Sense (self only, any danger, Function as a Sense) (31 Active Points); Conditional Power Suppressed by Bug Spray (-1/4) 16-

 

:) HM

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I've played in a game where one player bought an attack with the Trigger (Instant Reset, etc) effect so that, basically, he got an Attack of Opportunity (as in D&D) on any and every foe who passed by him in combat. It was ridiculously overpowered and game-balance breaking, but I wasn't the GM....

 

It left a bad taste in my mouth and I doubt I'd allow much of anything with a Trigger effect any more.

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Having used trigger in the past, and having had players use it, I don't think trigger (even auto-resetting) is necessarily a problem. I think a lot of the time, it's used incorrectly, when other effects, like Damage Shield, are more appropriate, or if GMs don't count it toward campaign guidelines. For the Attacks of Opportunity example, it can be indeed powerful if the campaign is based around maxing out at, say, 2d6+1 Killing Attacks for routine, repeatable damage, if a character can use AoOs at that same 2d6+1 Killing Damage, but it's a lot less so if they're doing it at 1d6 or 1d6+1.

 

Likewise, it depends heavily on the way the GM adjudicates things: in D&D or pathfinder, AoOs are designed around the understanding that their importance isn't so much in doing damage as providing a disincentive for monsters to rush past the melee fighter, or for the characters to charge past the Big Bad Wizard's bodyguards to try to kill him before he gets too many of his spells up. This assumption is accepted, because AoOs are a thing Everyone can do. You don't have to question as much why the goblins would know that rushing past the fighter is a bad idea. In HERO, AoOs don't exist unless the players build them, so there's not as strong a reason for anyone to know that rushing past this specific fighter is a bad idea. A solution I've found around this, to a degree, is making Attacks of Opportunity a Talent. It does nothing mechanically different, but the fact that it's a talent means there's more of a reason people might suspect AoOs to be a thing to watch out for, and gives them their intended effect.

 

In terms of other cases, GM adjudication is still important. A riposte strike (Trigger off an effective Block) can be incredibly powerful, if the GM is too lenient. However, there are perfectly textual reasons to justify not giving that leniency. For example, I played a Fantasy Hero monk with just that power, and quickly the GM and I realized that it was probably too strong. Rather than bar it outright, we decided on an agreeable solution, where the trigger wouldn't go off from aborting to block, but only when blocking with a held action, based on the justification that if counterattacking is effectively within the same action as a block, it is no longer a defensive action, similarly to the way that maneuvers such as Grappling Block or Defensive Throw can only be aborted to for the Block component, but cannot grab or throw the target after blocking, when aborting. This made it a lot fairer, since I needed to choose in advance whether to try to do my counterattack trick, banking on the assumption that I'd be in a position to block an attack, or whether to use my action on something potentially more certain.

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I agree, limits have to be clearly set to avoid abuse. Here's one with clear limits on its power. It can be used once a day, and allows them to make a triggered Roll With A Punch without the typical -2 penalty as an action that takes no time instead of a standard action. Their unused standard action is held for use before their next normal phase. It's a nice reflexive "evasion" ability that isn't abusive. 

 

4 Triggered Roll With A Punch:  +2 OCV with any HtH or Ranged Combat, Trigger Being Successfully Attacked (Rolling With A Punch is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; +1/4) (10 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4)

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Applying Trigger to CSL's as a way to make an Optional Combat Maneuver not require an Attack Action is dubious at best.

Here are more details on the maneuver in question:

Roll With A Punch
Optional Free Maneuver From Champions Complete page 154.  (½ Phase; -2 OCV; -2 DCV)
Allows a character to take less damage from a HTH attack. This Maneuver is unique because a character may perform it after the opponent’s Attack Roll succeeds (but before he rolls damage). The Rolling character attempts an Attack Roll against the attacker’s OCV (like Block). If successful, he takes only half the STUN and BODY that the attack would have normally done (after defenses). However, the attacker rolls one less die for Knockback. A character can only Roll With A Punch to reduce the effects of a single attack.

 

HM

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I still think the simplest way to do "always dodging" is:
+3 DCV, does not stack with Dodge, Block or Dive for Cover Maneuvers(-?).

 

Regarding the AoO example:

Attacks of Opportunity on move exist to solve a specific need that D&D has as part of certain early design decisions:

1. Armor does not reduced damage, it makes you harder to hit. Perhaps the most important descision of D&D. It speeds up combat resolution by a lot, but at the downside of causing a whole rat-tail of issues that need solving.

2. Mages/Priests/Ranged guys should be vulnerable to Melee Attacks and Ranged attacks. Hence the whole AoO on casting/using a bow.

3. The "Tank" needs a way to keep the swarm enemies away from the mage. D&D by name tends to resolve combat in thight spaces (Dungeons). So AoO on many (but not all) forms of movement was found fitting for most (but not all) cases of combat resolution.

 

Of course if only one guy has that, it can't be balanced. You can't translate a whole Rules construct without understanding why it exists and only give it too one Character (player or PC) only. At least not without making sure it is properly priced.

The rules can guide player and GM only so far. Then common sense has to take over. In this case it did not.

It is entirely the GM's fault, not the rules. One could maybe argue Trigger could stand a more obvious yield sign, stop sign or "GM Option" mark. At last on that autoreset.

But "common sense and game balance trumps anything" is one of those things mentioned even before the "Basic Rules & Concepts" part in 6E1. It's it basically one part of Rule 0 for the hero system.

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Note that the success or failure of an attempt to Dive For Cover is NOT dependent on a character's DCV.  It is based on a DEX roll and can only be affected by Skill Levels that affect DEX rolls (Levels with Movement and Overall Levels are the most common).  Bonus DCV or CSL's with DCV do not affect it.

 

HM

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Attacks of Opportunity also deal with the abstracted representation of combat that D&D uses; you can move past people and away from people without them being able to reasonably react as they would in a real fight because its taking place over a time period instead of blow-by-blow.

 

That said, I do allow people to abort to a straight OCV attack (no levels or special maneuvers) on someone in more gritty games if they try to blow past someone in combat.  Because of the jerky way movement works in hero combat, it helps offset how you can just race around on the board on your phase while everyone else stands still.

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I would not allow Trigger as a naked advantage on a maneuver.  Too effective and too cheap.  Getting an auto-block roll for like 5 points is too effective.  I would allow someone to build it another way, but they'd have to do it with powers.

 

Buying +3 DCV, does not stack with dodge, is the easiest way to build an "auto-dodge" feature on a character.

 

An attack of opportunity doesn't sound too bad, so an XD6 attack with a Trigger would be fine.  It's gonna be relatively expensive, and points are limited, so no problem there.

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