Combining Frameworks - Multipower in a VPP

[Christopher]

I am pretty sure I wrote this down before, but I just can not find it no mater how deeply I searched. Would really help if I could just find every topic ever started by me (rather then only every topic that has a post form me), but I live with what I got.

 

How this idea came to be:

Combining Frameworks (putting VPP into Multipower or vice versa) has been explicitly forbidden by the rules. It is the first of the "General Rules" about Frameworks as found on 6E1 398.

Yet there are cases when it would be plain the simplest Construct to put a Multipower into a VPP. For example a Assault Rifle with Underbarrel Grenade Launcher would best be solved with a Multipower.

If your are a Gadgeteer Hero with a VPP, you can never build such a Assault Rifle with that VPP however. The VPP is to slow/expensive at switching powers to simulate switching the mode on the Rifle.

Other issues might be adapting heroes, that can copy abilities using a VPP - but not if the enemy bought them in a Multipower.

 

I had some thought to make it at least possible and balanced as far as Multipower in a Variable Power Pool are concerned.

 

What would make that whole idea moot:
If there was some way to buy a specific slot for a VPP with Character points. These "Fixed VPP Slot" you could always switch to as 0-Phase action without rolls, regardless of what the normal rules for Changing the VPP are (you still have to drop powers to make room, but otherwise Effortless Change).

Just waving a Lamppost towards the writers of the 7th Edition.

 

Why (I think) the rule exists:

I would think the biggest issue for the "MP in VPP" combo are "Limitations that affect changing of slots" and "Limitations shared by all slots", because they affect the biggest Number: The Multipower Reserve.

Asuming the Assault Rifle has 4 Firing Modes (Single, Burst, Automatic, Grenades) each at 60 AP:

The Multipower + Slots without Limitation would cost 60+4x6 (for the fixed slots) = 84 Character Points (wich would propably be fair)

The Multipower + Slots with a Focus Limitation (-1) would cost 30+4x3 = 51 Character Points. Wich is obviously a problem as now you can fit a bunch of 60 AP Attacks into a VPP that should only fit 51 AP Powers. And it get's worse with Limitations

 

Solution:
1. We add the Concept of an Abstract Multipower.

2. No Limitations that would affect the Reserve cost or all Slots can be applied to the Abstract Multipower. No Charges, Focus, Extra Endurance, Only usable by Kevin's, etc.

3. Where needed some limitations must be abstracted. As you do not know if the Final Construct will be fuelled by Endurance or Charges, you can put neither "Extra Endurance" nor "Extra Charges" on the Burst and Full Auto Slots. The solution would be to create something like "Increased Cost" Limitation, wich just increase the amount of resource drained - if that means extra Charges, Extra Endurance or Endurance from a Power Reserve in addition to normal Endurance is up to the Implementation.

4. Implementation. When putting that Abstract Multipower into the VPP, take the cost of Reserve+Slots as the AP. You can limit it with any Limitations you could not use at step 2 here, and as usualy for powers that will not affect the Active Points value.

 

Example:

Asuming the above example the 4 Attack Assault Rifle, this is what we would get:

1. A abstract Multipower called "Assault Rifle", 60 Points reserve, 4 Fixed Slots each 60 Points with different Attack Powers). 84 Character points total.

2. We can not apply Focus or the like here.

3. I skip this step for simplicity.

4. When implmeneting it as "Assault Rifle, Focus(-1)" it would be worth 84 AP, 42 Character Points as part of a VPP. Lacking any overriding Limitations like Charges, it would drain Endurance at the usual rates for the seperate "Attack Modes"/Multipower slots.
It would take the usual time, rolls, Control Cost and Poolsize for the VPP owner to switch to "Assault Rifle, Focus(-1), 84 AP, 42 Real Cost". But once there switching between Firing modes is instantly.

 

Caveeats:
- This will not be cheap. But it is still cheaper then having to buy Effortless Change (No Roll, 0-Phase Action) for the VPP. And I think that is just about the right price for this utility. The Point Build system requires us to find the Pricetag for anything, and this seems about right for me.

- It hinges on the asumption that a Multipower without any "Reserve" or "all slots" affecting Limitations can be treated like a distinct hero power. That it's Character points cost without Limitations is a good equivalent to AP. And that it will still end up around the same Character Point cost if you apply those Limitations during Step 4.

- The bigest weakness/approach to break it might come from Rule 3, so I am not against just throwing it out entirely without replacement. However I feel confident that as long as the Reserve Cost can not be modified anything comming alongs this vector would have next to no impact.

 

Questions:

Anybody ever had the same/a very similar idea? Or maybe even tried this?

Anybody can think of a way to break it that does not violate above 4 rules (just so I can refine them)?

Does the final result seem to Cheap? To Expensive? To abuseable? To Blue?

Edited May 6, 2016 by Christopher

[Marcus Impudite]

I'll admit I've been tempted to break the "No Nested Frameworks" rule in my games, though I do understand why the rule exists.

[Tholomyes]

One thing I thought about for the Assault Rifle example is just to have a regular VPP, with a naked advantage +2 Cosmic, itself with a limitation (not sure the value; -1/2 might make sense. corresponding to a "limited class of powers" that a VPP might have) that the powers can only be changed this way within the bounds of the one device. It'll be expensive, surely (a little higher than 1.5x the cost, using the 4-fire modes baseline) but the relative costs of a VPP and non-frameworked power is not too different than the relative cost between this construct and a multipower (again, assuming a 4-fire mode baseline).

[bigdamnhero]

Would really help if I could just find every topic ever started by me (rather then only every topic that has a post form me)...

Go to My Content, and on the left sidebar under "See this member's" click on "Only topics."

 

Yet there are cases when it would be plain the simplest Construct to put a Multipower into a VPP. For example a Assault Rifle with Underbarrel Grenade Launcher would best be solved with a Multipower.

If your are a Gadgeteer Hero with a VPP, you can never build such a Assault Rifle with that VPP however. The VPP is to slow/expensive at switching powers to simulate switching the mode on the Rifle.

I've seen two ways to do that:

1) As long as the Real cost of all the settings (standard, auto, grenade) is low enough that you can fit all of them within the Pool, you can have them all active at the same time with no switching required. (Technically this is advantaged over the MP version because you could Multiple Attack with multiple settings at once, but chalk that one up to "sfx prohibits.")

2) Liberal use of Variable Advantages and Variable SFX.

 

The assault rifle is an easy example because they're all RKAs.

 

Other issues might be adapting heroes, that can copy abilities using a VPP - but not if the enemy bought them in a Multipower.

Yeah, that's...harder. Essentially you have to copy all the slots in the MP individually and hope you have enough RP to fit them all in. Or else buy Effortless Change. When I've run into that in the past we've always just handwaved it, but it's a valid point.

 

What would make that whole idea moot:

If there was some way to buy a specific slot for a VPP with Character points. These "Fixed VPP Slot" you could always switch to as 0-Phase action without rolls, regardless of what the normal rules for Changing the VPP are (you still have to drop powers to make room, but otherwise Effortless Change).

Hmm...so essentially you're proposing a hybrid VPP/MP, with all the advantages of both? Not a bad idea, but sounds like it should be priced accordingly.

[eepjr24]

I would either buy the powers separately and switch at will or have Lockout (-1/2, cannot be used at the same time as other powers in same focus) or do the variable SFX like BDH suggests above. 

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

Is this the old thread you were looking for?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/83788-vpp-discusion/?hl=framework

 

HM

[Christopher]

One thing I thought about for the Assault Rifle example is just to have a regular VPP, with a naked advantage +2 Cosmic, itself with a limitation (not sure the value; -1/2 might make sense. corresponding to a "limited class of powers" that a VPP might have) that the powers can only be changed this way within the bounds of the one device. It'll be expensive, surely (a little higher than 1.5x the cost, using the 4-fire modes baseline) but the relative costs of a VPP and non-frameworked power is not too different than the relative cost between this construct and a multipower (again, assuming a 4-fire mode baseline).

It is not that easy to get the proper correlation between the powers you can switch too instantly and the price for this... Naked Advantage? 2nd part of a Compound Power? What kind of Rules construct would that even be?

 

Go to My Content, and on the left sidebar under "See this member's" click on "Only topics."

 

I've seen two ways to do that:

1) As long as the Real cost of all the settings (standard, auto, grenade) is low enough that you can fit all of them within the Pool, you can have them all active at the same time with no switching required. (Technically this is advantaged over the MP version because you could Multiple Attack with multiple settings at once, but chalk that one up to "sfx prohibits.")

2) Liberal use of Variable Advantages and Variable SFX.

 

The assault rifle is an easy example because they're all RKAs.

 

Yeah, that's...harder. Essentially you have to copy all the slots in the MP individually and hope you have enough RP to fit them all in. Or else buy Effortless Change. When I've run into that in the past we've always just handwaved it, but it's a valid point.

 

Hmm...so essentially you're proposing a hybrid VPP/MP, with all the advantages of both? Not a bad idea, but sounds like it should be priced accordingly.

My Content only goes back one year and that one was older. Could not find a way to override this even when editing HTTP parameters either. So right now I just can not search that far back.

 

Variable advantage and SFX only work if the powers are based on the same base power. The moment we got a Stun or Paralsiation (Blast or Entangle) setting in there, it fails unfortunately. Other problems are that a +1/2 version on a 60 Base Power Attack is a lot more expensive then what I build.

 

Is this the old thread you were looking for?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/83788-vpp-discusion/?hl=framework

 

HM

That one is not it, unfortunately. In any case I now have it written down again and propably better too. So I guess I do not need that old one anymore.