Adjustment powers with Time Limit as a limitation

[eepjr24]

Just looking for a discussion around this one. Here is the only text I found referencing the combination in 6e, p 346

 

If a Power has its own rules for altering its duration (such as Adjustment Powers with the Delayed Return Rate Advantage or Change Environment with the Long-Lasting Adder), characters shouldn’t buy Time Limit for it without the GM’s permission.

So in this case, I would be the GM, but I would like the things I am creating to be generally acceptable to the community, understanding that individuals can always adjust to taste.

 

The effect I am after here is an aid that does one of two things:

 

1. Raises some characteristic(s) for a period (may or may not tick down some, depending on how the return rate is bought) and then suddenly goes away after a fix period.

2. Raises some characteristic for a set period (may or may not tick down some, depending on how the return rate is bought) and then suddenly goes away inside of some window (based on skill roll, random dice roll or other determining factor).

 

In case 1 the expiration is generally a known quantity to the player (I can make you stronger, but it will gradually weaken and then wear off in exactly 20 minutes). In case two the player is dealing with some amount of unknown, from fixed plus random to completely random (The Gods will grant you the strength of 3 men.... but I don't know how long their favor will last).

 

Notes: These generally come in the form of spells or granted abilities from some patron so the GM can easily control which (if any) of them are offered. And is in control of creating or modifying them as needed.

 

Now, after all that, my question. Would you say that Time Limit should be used at it's published values or modified to be off less value? If the latter, what are your thoughts on how and why to adjust?

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

I believe the Time Limit Modifier was intended for powers other than Aid which is a special case since it has "usable on others" built in.  If you were using Differing Modifiers to build a spell that grants a power (which could technically be a characteristic) then you could apply Time Limit to the "casting" or the "granted STR" portion of the build.

 

I think the described combination of randomness with Aid seems more like a minor version of the No Conscious Control Limitation.  I would value it somewhere between (-0) and (-1/2) and add to the base Aid built with the appropriate Fade Rate Advantages.

 

HM

[eepjr24]

Huh? I quoted the relevant section of 6e, not sure what you mean since it specifically identifies Adjustment powers. I guess I could have noted that it also calls out that it should NOT be used for attack powers so that leaves out drain, and the nature of the limitation leaves out Healing since it is by nature permanent. You could do something like I was saying above with Absorption as well, but it does not fit what IU am looking for at the moment. And I don't really see how time limit could be applied to casting the spell. Are you thinking of Extra Time?

 

To the second bit I could see doing that, but I like the granularity of the Time Limit. I'd prefer to work from that as a base.

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

I guess it would make more sense if you tried to add the Time Limit Modifier to an Aid build within Hero Designer as I did.  It is essentially duplicating the effects of the Decreased Fade Rate Advantage.  I don't see the point of using them together. It boils down to an either this or that option.

 

HM

[eepjr24]

Let me provide an example, since I am not getting how the two are not different.

 

This one is a bit extreme, but based on an actual feat I modeled for &D& 5e:

 

2d6 Aid to both Body and Stun, fade 5 points per day (+2 1/4), Time Limit: 1 Day (-1/4), Extra Time: 10 minutes (-2), Gestures  Throughout (-1/2), Incantations Throughout (-1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV Throughout (-1/2)

 

It maintains the full effect for a day, essentially.

 

At the lower levels it does not make as much difference, but as you get into higher dice, it is much easier to increase the fade rate and then have it cliff to 0 after an hour or 20 minutes. That is the effect I am trying to achieve that delayed return does not seem to provide.

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

I don't think there is actually a need to use the Delayed Fade Rate Advantage at all.  Just use Time Limit to define duration of the initial rolled effect.

 

There is no change in Real Cost to do so:

 

9    Version 1: Aid  Body and Stun 2d6, Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (Body and Stun; +1/2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Day; +2 1/4) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Character May Take No Other Actions, Replace "Character May Take No Other Actions" with +5 Minutes (10 Minutes total).; -2 1/4), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Time Limit (1 Day; -1/4) - END=4

 

9    Version 2: Aid  Body and Stun 2d6, Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (Body and Stun; +1/2), Time Limit (1 Day; +2) (42 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Character May Take No Other Actions, Replace "Character May Take No Other Actions" with +5 Minutes (10 Minutes total).; -2 1/4), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2) - END=4

 

 

HM

[eepjr24]

When the two perfectly align, that works well. But when you want something in between....

 

27 4d6 Aid to Body, fade 5 points 20 minute (+1 1/4), (54 Active points) Time Limit: 1 Hour (-3/4), Gestures (-1/4)

vs

53 4d6 Aid to Body, Time Limit: 1 Hour (+1 1/2), (67 Active points) , Gestures (-1/4)

 

The points are different and the effect is different as well. I mean, I guess you could construct it as 1d6 limited to 20 minutes, 1d6 limited to 40 minutes and 2d6 limited to an hour, but I still don't think the points would work out right? And that gets very difficult to do with some dice and fade combinations? Am I missing an obvious point you are trying to make? 

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

When the two perfectly align, that works well. But when you want something in between....

 

27 4d6 Aid to Body, fade 5 points 20 minute (+1 1/4), (54 Active points) Time Limit: 1 Hour (-3/4), Gestures (-1/4)

vs

53 4d6 Aid to Body, Time Limit: 1 Hour (+1 1/2), (67 Active points) , Gestures (-1/4)

 

The points are different and the effect is different as well. I mean, I guess you could construct it as 1d6 limited to 20 minutes, 1d6 limited to 40 minutes and 2d6 limited to an hour, but I still don't think the points would work out right? And that gets very difficult to do with some dice and fade combinations? Am I missing an obvious point you are trying to make? 

 

- E

 

I would question how truly limiting the Time Limit Limitation actually is to the recipient of this particular build since when 60 minutes passes they will already have lost 15 points of effect (a non-insignificant portion of the maximum effect of of a 4d6 Aid).  The (-3/4) value in this case seems a little high to me but If you don't have a problem with characters using such a combo in a game where you're the GM it's OK then.

 

HM

[eepjr24]

No, that is actually what I wanted to discuss, is how different people would adjust it! I find in some situations (like this example) the limitation is too much. In others it seems to work out about right. Looking for a nice middle ground or guideline if anyone has one or can think of something that might scale.

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

This is why I suggested the custom value range of No Conscious Control to begin with. 

 

The other thing to consider is the result of the interactions of a Time Limit that expires before the Fade Rate ends ALL of the bonuses from an Aid.  This can be important as the rules state that a NEW Aid cannot be applied until the original effect is gone.  Does an earlier than normal Time Limit reset this "clock" so that a NEW Aid CAN be applied before the normal Fade Rate would dictate?

 

HM

[eepjr24]

I don't think it works that way in 6e. I seem to remember it did in 4e and maybe 5e? The stuff I see in 6e indicates that another application would simply raise the points up to the maximum effect of the aid in use.

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

I don't think it works that way in 6e. I seem to remember it did in 4e and maybe 5e? The stuff I see in 6e indicates that another application would simply raise the points up to the maximum effect of the aid in use.

 

- E

 

You are correct.

 

I was remembering a specific case with regards to positive Adjustments to 'Expendable' characteristics like Stun and Endurance.

 

from 6e1 page 136:

 

Similarly, if a character has an expendable Characteristic or Power increased to the maximum effect possible using an Adjustment Power, and he then uses up or removes some of what he gained, the Adjustment Power cannot be applied again until the Adjustment Power would fade naturally.

 

 

HM

[Armitage]

There was a rule in 5eR that didn't make it into 6e until the Advanced Player's Guide.  It's part of the Increased Return Rate Limitation for Adjustment Powers.

5ER 113 or APG 56.

 

Every doubling of the number of points that return per Turn is a -1/4 Limitation.  If all of the points return at once in a Turn or less, it's a flat -1/2, -1/4 if it adds or subtracts 10 or less points.  The final part is what's relevant.

"If an Adjustment Power has the Delayed Return Rate Advantage, the Limitation described above simply reduces the value of the Advantage, but the Advantage has a minimum value of +1/2."

 

For example, a 3d6 Aid that fades completely after an Hour would have a +1 1/4 Advantage; +1 3/4 for an Hour and -1/2 for 20 points of fade per Hour.

 

 

EDIT: Also, regarding the second version, when a power has a Limitation that can fall within a range of values, the smallest value is used.  I believe it's reversed for Advantages, with the larger value being used, but I can't think of any existing Advantage examples off the top of my head. 

For example, The Ultimate Vehicle has several long-range missile launchers for which the missiles travel a fixed distance per Segment.  The weapons are bought with Extra Time at the -1/2 Extra Segment level, stating "Extra Time (travels at the rate of 200" per Segment, taking a minimum of one extra Segment to reach its target; -1/2)".

The same thing is done with Gadget Pools that require "at least -1/2 in the Focus Limitation".  They take a -1/2 Limitation even though the Powers could take Focus at -1.

 

If the Aid fades between 20 minutes and 1 Hour, for example, based on some variable, the Advantage would be at the 1 Hour level with the statement that that's the slowest possible fade rate, but it could be faster.