5th Ed. Transformation: Consecrating objects

[Lucius]

You missed a few key disadvantages for your rezoneing power.

 

Makes absolutely no real physical change -1, can be ignored by any one with a good lawyer -1/2, can be ignored by anyone willing to pay fines -1/2, law role to enforce extended time 1 year -6,requires a vote to enact -1/2, other voters are independent and open to bribes and black mail -1, Use restricted by local by laws -1 1/2, side effect transform 4d6 cumulative normal person into smug self important bureaucrat -1 Making it 3 real points.

 

Or you can call it what it is and say it's an ability conferred by the 3 point perk local zoning officer.

I have already agreed that my power build is frivolous.

 

But I also dislike using a Perk for what should be covered by Skills and background and role playing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Yes, I have a license for this palindromedary. No, I don't have to pay for a "perk" for it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Massey now I think you are thinking too much like D&D. It doesn't have to be visible. You can choose another sense other than sight.

[Wardsman]

Cosmetic would be a visible change.  In the real world, a sacred object doesn't look any different than a non-sacred object.  I mean I can't tell the difference between holy water and regular water.

 

See I think the ability to make something holy or sacred, could be anything from Perk: Priest, all the way up to a Major Transform or even a VPP.  But that's gonna depend on exactly what you want it to do, and how the campaign functions.

 

I'd say a Cosmetic Transform "to holy" would probably make an item, I dunno, more shiny?  Like you use it on regular water and now it's suddenly kinda glowy and twinkley?  

 

 

I suppose you could buy things IPE if you wanted to.  But I don't think you'd have to.  That's really a campaign thing.  I do agree that seeing a special effect doesn't mean you automatically know what the power is.

 

So a lot of this goes back to a common issue.  How do I do XYZ special effect?  And the answer is "however you want".  It really is decided by what you want it to do, specifically, and what the assumptions are in the game you're playing in.  In some games it will come up often enough that it's worth establishing some universal rules for how to handle a given special effect.  In others it won't.

What is IPE? I'm using 5th edition.

 

As Ninja Bear stated This could sensed on the Mystic sense group.

 

 

All right As OP I'll give some background.

This is designed as a minor enchantment to give an ordinary item a SFX that would trigger Susceptibilities, Vulnerabilities, SFX weaknesses in Desolidification and damage reduction. All of which would built into certain haints.

 

Spell users will have such susceptibilities as as part of their package deal as well as some of the monsters.

Consecrate is not just holy. It is an item of minor power. That power can be wiccan, hermetic, vodoun , etc

That covers the original premise. So think of it as a +1 weapon that doesn't give a + but lets you hit things not normally affected by weapons or doing damage or xtra damage  certain things. Or just warding and blocking against witches and monsters. Red Brick dust stops voodoo priests and voodoo spirits (susceptibility using force wall)

 

Been thinking of adding to that. A lot real world belief systems in the occult and religion require items used in ritual to be consecrated. Holy water, oil and candles are easy(low body). That Chalice or Sword a little more difficult. is that +0 effect you think for requiring this on material components in a spell or would give more?

 

Also for enchantment I might let just pay points but again the item must be consecrated. Again this mimics certain belief systems. Have decided if that is worth a limitation on independent items or not.

 

I'm thinking even a non magic user can desecrate an object . Doesn't unenchant  it but renders it inert until reconsecrated.

 

Archeologist Howard Pickman has stolen the Dagger of Dagon from a foul cult in Innsmouth. The fell item is capable of summoning Deep Ones and other fell beings from the nether void. Pickman is not initiated in any occult arts so he cannot disenchant the item. However he has determined any prayer to one of the Gods of Man by a devout worshiper will desecrate the item rendering it inert until it can be reconsecrated(a lengthy ritual). Pickman, a devout catholic says the Rosary over the item. This will buy some time. He stashes the item in a church (holy ground) to keep cultists away from it. Meanwhile he tries to find a hermetic or a member of Opus Dei to disenchant this foul thing.

[eepjr24]

What is IPE? I'm using 5th edition.

 

As Ninja Bear stated This could sensed on the Mystic sense group.

5e, 261 - Invisible Power Effects.

 

There is no "Mystic" sense group by default. The basic sense groups for 5e are: Hearing, Mental, Radio, Sight, Smell/Taste, Touch and Unusual. I normally make "mystic" part of the Unusual group. A power by default is visible in 3 of these sense groups, with Sight and Hearing being default. Read up on page 98 or 261 for more information.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

5e, 261 - Invisible Power Effects.

 

There is no "Mystic" sense group by default. The basic sense groups for 5e are: Hearing, Mental, Radio, Sight, Smell/Taste, Touch and Unusual. I normally make "mystic" part of the Unusual group. A power by default is visible in 3 of these sense groups, with Sight and Hearing being default. Read up on page 98 or 261 for more information.

 

- E

There is if there is a mystic sense. Check any of the fantasy or urban fantasy supplements.

[eepjr24]

There is if there is a mystic sense. Check any of the fantasy or urban fantasy supplements.

I only have FH 6e handy... I am guessing you are talking about Magesight and the like? Those are defined as not belonging to a Sense Group in 6e, is that different in other editions? My 4e stuff is buried at the moment or I would look it up. I thought I remembered most of the Detect Magic type effects being in the Unusual Sense group in 4e.

 

In any case, you are certainly welcome to create another sense group for your campaign, I am just not sure what it buys you? Most "mere mortals" cannot sense things in the Unusual group, so you could use that unless it already has some other purpose in the campaign? But in any case, unless you use IPE it would still need to be visible to 2 other sense groups by default.

 

- E

[bigbywolfe]

5e, 261 - Invisible Power Effects.

 

There is no "Mystic" sense group by default. The basic sense groups for 5e are: Hearing, Mental, Radio, Sight, Smell/Taste, Touch and Unusual. I normally make "mystic" part of the Unusual group. A power by default is visible in 3 of these sense groups, with Sight and Hearing being default. Read up on page 98 or 261 for more information.

 

- E

the use of the Transform Power would be visible to 3 senses. Transform is an Instant Power, and the result of the Transform has no such requirement.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It doesn't need to be something sensed by the ordinary senses.  A consecrated object could just seem holier, feel better, have a sense of otherworldliness about it.  Or you can tell by how creatures react to it.

[eepjr24]

It doesn't need to be something sensed by the ordinary senses.  A consecrated object could just seem holier, feel better, have a sense of otherworldliness about it.  Or you can tell by how creatures react to it.

The power itself? According to RAW.... 6e 124

 

Powers that directly affect another character, including all attacks, are Obvious (see below). This means they can be perceived by at least two Sense Groups when in use. (No PER Roll is required in most cases.) Unless the GM rules otherwise, one of these must be the Sight  Sense Group. Typically the other is the Hearing Group.

5e is actually more restrictive, requiring 3 groups, with sight and hearing default, plus another of choice.

 

All of this is just at time of "consecration", though, as Bigby points out. After that it is totally about what the transformed objects is defined as.

 

And all of this assumes it is an actual power, not just a perk or skill check or ritual by campaign definition.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

No not the power in use, the transformed target.  The power its self is ordinary in terms of senses.  But he's talking above about the consecrated object having some kind of visible alteration.  It doesn't need to be a visible alteration, just a cosmetic one.

[Wardsman]

I only have FH 6e handy... I am guessing you are talking about Magesight and the like? Those are defined as not belonging to a Sense Group in 6e, is that different in other editions? My 4e stuff is buried at the moment or I would look it up. I thought I remembered most of the Detect Magic type effects being in the Unusual Sense group in 4e.

 

In any case, you are certainly welcome to create another sense group for your campaign, I am just not sure what it buys you? Most "mere mortals" cannot sense things in the Unusual group, so you could use that unless it already has some other purpose in the campaign? But in any case, unless you use IPE it would still need to be visible to 2 other sense groups by default.

 

- E

No different than defining a radio sense group in champions. 

Each genre is going to b different.

[Wardsman]

Btw real world religions describe the spirit realm as invisable to the naked eye so any spiritual powers wiuld be bought as IPE and unless you have the proper senses: detect vs spirit, anything that is blesses would still look normal to you.

 

Let me add, just because you see the special effect doesn't mean you should know the mechanical rules.

only recently. In past shamens and priests said they could see such things and were taken at their word.

Real example will carry so far since none of this really exists.

[eepjr24]

No different than defining a radio sense group in champions. 

Each genre is going to b different.

I think somehow we are not on the same page. There is no need to CREATE a radio group, it is one of the standard groups, as I listed above.

 

And I don't really see why each genre needs different sense groups, as far as I can tell you haven't touched on anything that could not be handled in the base rules. Not that you can't create one if you want. I just still don't understand why you would need to?

 

- E

[Ninja-Bear]

only recently. In past shamens and priests said they could see such things and were taken at their word.

Real example will carry so far since none of this really exists.

I will politely disagree and keep on topic.

[Wardsman]

I think somehow we are not on the same page. There is no need to CREATE a radio group, it is one of the standard groups, as I listed above.

 

And I don't really see why each genre needs different sense groups, as far as I can tell you haven't touched on anything that could not be handled in the base rules. Not that you can't create one if you want. I just still don't understand why you would need to?

 

- E

A consecrated athame should show up on mystic senses. Or any other mystic tool

But I'm curious is requiring that extra step of consecration of material components (Foci) of spell is worth added limitation value.

 

Certainly in the case of an independent item it could a conditional limitation. Perhaps that is the way to go with spell components.

[eepjr24]

A consecrated athame should show up on mystic senses. Or any other mystic tool

Sure? But that doesn't need a new sense group to represent. You have two options in the system to do that now, either assign mystic senses to the Unusual Group or assign them to no group at all.

 

The reasons I would see for creating an entirely new sense group would be if you wanted it to be affected by Flash, Enhanced Sense modifiers, Drain, Suppress, etc. completely separately for some campaign or game reason. Like the Unusual sense group is already used by the Mole People (sense vibrations through ground through their vibratory gland) and the Undead (life energy sensing) and you need those treated distinct and different from "mystic" senses or something like that.

 

 

But I'm curious is requiring that extra step of consecration of material components (Foci) of spell is worth added limitation value.

 

Certainly in the case of an independent item it could a conditional limitation. Perhaps that is the way to go with spell components.

 

 That sounds like varying the difficulty of replacement value in Expendable for the Foci, which gives you the extra limitation based on how hard it is to replace. It would seem to me to be harder to replace something that has to be consecrated than something you can just buy in the store.

 

- E

 

[Wardsman]

Sure? But that doesn't need a new sense group to represent. You have two options in the system to do that now, either assign mystic senses to the Unusual Group or assign them to no group at all.

 

The reasons I would see for creating an entirely new sense group would be if you wanted it to be affected by Flash, Enhanced Sense modifiers, Drain, Suppress, etc. completely separately for some campaign or game reason. Like the Unusual sense group is already used by the Mole People (sense vibrations through ground through their vibratory gland) and the Undead (life energy sensing) and you need those treated distinct and different from "mystic" senses or something like that.

 

That is exactly why I'd want a Mystic sense group. Nystal's Magic Aura , Wizard Marks, Darkness vs detect magic or clairsentience.

 

 

 

 That sounds like varying the difficulty of replacement value in Expendable for the Foci, which gives you the extra limitation based on how hard it is to replace. It would seem to me to be harder to replace something that has to be consecrated than something you can just buy in the store.

 

- E

That is possibility too.  Conditional certainly seems the way independent items.

One the fantasy books did have ritual prep system.

 

My goal is that consecrated items would act low power magic in certain situations but again depends on conditions.

Say creature or mage hard to kill with normal weapons but his Damage reduction or desolid doesn't work against a consecrated blade.

And would not take extra damage unless the foe had a vulnerability keyed to such things.

[eepjr24]

That is exactly why I'd want a Mystic sense group. Nystal's Magic Aura , Wizard Marks, Darkness vs detect magic or clairsentience.

Unless you are going to redefine Clairsentience (already part of the Unusual sense group), all of the above could just use the Unusual Sense group. I am not sure what I am missing here, but going to give up. =) Not important enough to explain again.

[Wardsman]

Unless you are going to redefine Clairsentience (already part of the Unusual sense group), all of the above could just use the Unusual Sense group. I am not sure what I am missing here, but going to give up. =) Not important enough to explain again.

Depends on the effect. I built a clairaudience power (Laser mike) that was both sight and sound sense group.

[Wardsman]

Someone had mention the 5th edition costs of transform levels were too much.

Should I go with 4th edition costs?

[Wardsman]

If you wanted to use transform to create an endurance battery, Would that partial or total transform?

1. Example one shot no recovery
2. Normal reusable endurance battery

Think Mana Stones and power stones from GURPS

[Christopher R Taylor]

I treat transforms that create something out of "nothing" as a major, or total depending on how significant the item.

[Lucius]

Thanks Lucius and I believe you and I are on the same page.

 

Page 4 I think.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says we've turned the page now