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Making super sorcery and non-magic super powers feel different


Wardsman

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There are lot ways to go about this.

In the Comico universe most if not all super powers are based on magic.

In Aberrant Universe, Super Magic doesn't seem to be all that different than normal mutant powers.

 

How do you make Super Sorcery(Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate) feel different than standard superpowers?

Is there somethings one can do but not the other?

Is there an effect overlap?

Is there something other than the limitations and advantages each takes?

 

Open to all ideas.

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Special effects and power modifiers. Comic book sorcerers are always shouting the names of their spells, or in the case of the Zatarra family, speaking them backward, so Incantations is a go-to limitation, for example. Side effects for a botched cast are common for less experienced sorcerers, and can bring in flavorful special effects, so activation or skill roll + side effect is another common combo.

 

The FASERIP supplement Realms of Magic further broke the types of magic down by power source into: Personal (personal power reserves/can cast with a thought, just like a normal power use), Universal (drawing on ambient magical power/usually requiring gestures and incantations or at least one or the other), and Dimensional (drawing on extra dimensional power or entreating an extra dimensional being/same as Universal, but may draw attention of extradimensional entities as a side effect).

 

There's also ritual magic, for bigger effects or just non-combat effects that can require a fixed location, extra time, etc. A small VPP with appropriate limitations can represent ritual magic used to either solve a specific problem (depower an evil artifact), gain information (locator spells, speak with mystic entities for info gathering, clairsentience), or other utility uses. So, the mage could be the go to guy for solving magic problems with his rituals or for superpowered information gathering, specializing in the mystic side of things.

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In superhero comics, the difference is primarily one of visual aesthetics, not functionality or behavior. I mean, lots of superheroes use focii and external energy for their powers, and a lot of mages wield spells as innate abilities, so you can't really say that any particular idiom is unique to either kind of power. It is mostly up to the players to play up the visual special fx of their powers to make the differences between them apparent. But if your group is composed of gamers who just say, "I fire my energy blast," and roll dice, the game system itself won't be of much help.

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I'm not sure the need, any more than it's necessary to make a blast defined by the special effect of "Concussive blasts of force" different from a blast defined by the special effects of "Lightning Bolts". The "Concussive force Blast" power might have the "Double Knockback" advantage, and the lightning bolt power might have the "Indirect" advantage (if the source is from the sky, for example), but not having those advantages doesn't make them any less of "concussive force blasts" or "lightning bolts" than if they don't.

 

There are several effects that are common to a comic book "magic" special effect (perhaps more than most other special effects), and there are several limitations that may be more common, but in terms of the system, I see no reason to differentiate magic from non-magic, in a champions game. The closest I can think of is that Magic would be more likely to use a power framework, such as VPP, to represent the vast magical effects that can be performed, but trying to otherwise differentiate magic from non-magic goes against much of what the purpose of HERO's basic design tenets are about.

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In superhero comics, the difference is primarily one of visual aesthetics, not functionality or behavior. I mean, lots of superheroes use focii and external energy for their powers, and a lot of mages wield spells as innate abilities, so you can't really say that any particular idiom is unique to either kind of power. It is mostly up to the players to play up the visual special fx of their powers to make the differences between them apparent. But if your group is composed of gamers who just say, "I fire my energy blast," and roll dice, the game system itself won't be of much help.

Depends on the setting. As I said Comico all heros have supernatural origin.

elementals_1.jpg

 

But In a world that has both I'd like a little fluff and crunch to distinguish the two.

Unique assumptions about a superhero setting add flavor. Such as the Wild Cards setting.

Which up to a point had no gadgeteers or powered armor until someone shoehorned them in.

Sometimes stepping out of generic superhero is interesting.

http://www.wildcardsonline.com/

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Indeed. The OP is merely looking for ways to make magic "feel different" from innate superpowers. The thing is, I sort of feel that using the game mechanics to deliver "feel" can be tricky because in a superhero world, magic and innate abilities often work exactly the same in the end, and it is only their visual appearance that sets them apart.

 

Dr. Strange uses his fingers to form a mystical shape, says some words ("By the crimson bands of Cytorak!"), taps an external energy source (the Dark Dimension), and energy beams come out of his hands.

 

Iron Man uses his fingers to activate switchs in his gauntlets, says some words ("Jarvis, activate target proximity prioritization!"), taps an external energy source (the Arc Reactor), and energy beams come out of his hands.

 

A player of either character could have the exact same powers written down, mechanically speaking, and go through all the same steps during combat, and the only thing that would make one "feel like magic" and the other "feel like technology" is how each player sells the imagery of the attack. After all, we're simualting a visual medium without the visuals (no drawn panels or filmed scenes to look at), so something has to step in and deliver what's missing. Otherwise there won't be much "feel" to feel in the campaign.

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If it were up to me, I'd do it this way:

 

Non-magical powers, innate or technological, are more or less fixed. Spider-Man is fast, strong, sticks to walls and can spin webs. And has a Spidey-sense. That's it. He can't suddenly fly or throw lightning bolts.

 

Iron Man has a suit of armor that gives him heavy armor, some superstrength, flight, and various weapons. He can swap them out at times, but that's more or less it. He can't stick to walls or become intangible.

 

Dr. Mystic, on the other hand, has no fixed powers. He has a Magic Pool. From which, given time and/or sufficient other limitations (incantations, gestures, concentration, foci, and so forth) he can produce a vast array of effects. If he wants to have standing powers, he can--but they tie up part of his Magic Pool as long as they're in use. He's not going to have the biggest blast, or the most defense, or be best at anything, really, as long as there's a specialist about. What he is, is FLEXIBLE. He's a utility infielder, who can fill a bunch of different roles depending on what's needed. If the team needs a mind read, he can do it eventually, but if there's a telepath on the team, he's probably better off filling some other niche.

 

That's my take on it, anyhow. YMMV.

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As example in the Wild Cards setting super powers exist due to humanity being used as guinea pigs for a bio weapon created by a near human alien race. That race has psionic abilities so the DNA in the retrovirus bioweapon passed some of that to humans.

The ones who survived gained abilities. 

 

It implies a few things

  1. all powers including bricks at their base are psionic in the wildcards universe.
  2. No gadgeteers , power suits, mad scientist weapons
  3. When #2 finally did show up in the anthologies, they only worked for the owner because they are psionic based whether people know it or not

Defining some things in the setting can change how things work.

 

Someone quotes faserip(whats that?).  Perhaps Dr. Strange types are pacters and need to be built similar to how I Paladins/clerics.

 

If I may digress for an example. Once I stepped away from AD&D (boy am I dating myself) I realized certain things that AD&D got wrong. 

 

  1. In classless system like hero clerics & Paladins are two sides of the same coin, Crusading knights.
  2. Sorcerers impose their will on the world so their magic should be based on ego
  3. Priests and Clerics make pacts with Genius Loci, Gods, or whatever and they must know correct rituals, so their magic must be based on Int
  4. Clerics and paladins , to me should run off endurance batteries or charges that only recharge when doing rituals for their patrons.

 

#4 seems to fit the supermage idea. Perhaps with a little tweaking. As someone else states if they tap a power something connected to that power my notice.

 

Addendum: What mental effects were restricted to magic?

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At risk of sounding snarky, I wrote a few books supplying answers to the OP's questions. The Ultimate Mystic is the most comprehensive. It covers all sorts of magical characters in a bunch of genres (though light on Fantasy because HERO has a whole game, Fantasy Hero, for that.) Spells of the Devachan: Thaumaturgy from the Sorcerer's Galaxy is a bit cheaper, and limited to Dr. Strange-style lightshow magic. It also provides a setting that's a bit, um, bizarre. Or, hey, look for Mystic Masters by Allen Varney. Shoulders of giants, and all that.

 

As others have said, though, for supers the big difference between sorcerers and other types is flexibility. Even if you don't use a Variable Power Pool (which can be a bitch to handle in play), you'll probably want a Multipower with a lot of slots.

 

The other big difference is less tangible. The true Dr. Strange-style super-mage does not, strictly speaking, have "powers." He has knowledge. He knows how to tap channels of power that most people don't know exist. External forces may cut him off from one channel of power, but his knowledge eventually enables him to find others. So play up the eldritch lore, the strange entities from beyond, and stuff like that.

 

Dean Shomshak

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At risk of sounding snarky, I wrote a few books supplying answers to the OP's questions. The Ultimate Mystic is the most comprehensive. It covers all sorts of magical characters in a bunch of genres (though light on Fantasy because HERO has a whole game, Fantasy Hero, for that.) Spells of the Devachan: Thaumaturgy from the Sorcerer's Galaxy is a bit cheaper, and limited to Dr. Strange-style lightshow magic. It also provides a setting that's a bit, um, bizarre. Or, hey, look for Mystic Masters by Allen Varney. Shoulders of giants, and all that.

 

As others have said, though, for supers the big difference between sorcerers and other types is flexibility. Even if you don't use a Variable Power Pool (which can be a bitch to handle in play), you'll probably want a Multipower with a lot of slots.

 

The other big difference is less tangible. The true Dr. Strange-style super-mage does not, strictly speaking, have "powers." He has knowledge. He knows how to tap channels of power that most people don't know exist. External forces may cut him off from one channel of power, but his knowledge eventually enables him to find others. So play up the eldritch lore, the strange entities from beyond, and stuff like that.

 

Dean Shomshak

Not at all I have mystic masters. I don't have most of the 5th ed Ultimates. Though I'm slowly changing that.

 

MM downplayed Material/Mandela (FOci) , Somatic/Mudra(gestures). and Incantations/Mantra limitations in SH setting.

Which I'm  not sure it should have.

 

deathstrokejla4.jpg

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As example in the Wild Cards setting super powers exist due to humanity being used as guinea pigs for a bio weapon created by a near human alien race. That race has psionic abilities so the DNA in the retrovirus bioweapon passed some of that to humans.

The ones who survived gained abilities. 

 

It implies a few things

  1. all powers including bricks at their base are psionic in the wildcards universe.
  2. No gadgeteers , power suits, mad scientist weapons
  3. When #2 finally did show up in the anthologies, they only worked for the owner because they are psionic based whether people know it or not

Defining some things in the setting can change how things work.

 

Someone quotes faserip(whats that?).  Perhaps Dr. Strange types are pacters and need to be built similar to how I Paladins/clerics.

 

If I may digress for an example. Once I stepped away from AD&D (boy am I dating myself) I realized certain things that AD&D got wrong. 

 

  1. In classless system like hero clerics & Paladins are two sides of the same coin, Crusading knights.
  2. Sorcerers impose their will on the world so their magic should be based on ego
  3. Priests and Clerics make pacts with Genius Loci, Gods, or whatever and they must know correct rituals, so their magic must be based on Int
  4. Clerics and paladins , to me should run off endurance batteries or charges that only recharge when doing rituals for their patrons.

 

#4 seems to fit the supermage idea. Perhaps with a little tweaking. As someone else states if they tap a power something connected to that power my notice.

 

Addendum: What mental effects were restricted to magic?

 

Well, the problem here is that none of us have any idea what you want in your world.  Wild Cards is a very unique series with its own feel, one that is much different from traditional superhero comics.  It certainly wouldn't be my first guess if somebody was asking for help in establishing stuff for their superhero game.

 

Generally supermages are extremely powerful.  They are more points than the people they hang out with.  My version of Dr. Strange is over 2000 points, because he is just that tough.  If I were trying to make a game-balanced supermage, I would probably give them some very high end attacks and powers that had lots of limitations on them.  Maybe that's why they're always letting other people fight while they sit there and act all-knowing and mysterious.  

 

So Professor Arcane, or whatever his name is, has a normal multipower with a 12D6 EB, 6D6 Entangle, 12D6 Flash, etc.  And then he's got some mystic words he can say that boosts his powers, maybe an Aid that costs extra End.  And it boosts those powers up to 14 or 15D6, but if he uses it too much then his End Reserve runs out.  And then he's got the mega-juju.  +10D6 Energy Blast, 1 charge, recoverable, recovers only in very high magic areas (such as facing the Dormammu-type).  So against Dormammu, he's basically able to add 10D6 to every attack.  But otherwise he can only do it once.  So he gets like a -1 3/4 limitation on it, but it's not really useful except against mystic guys who are more powerful than you normally face.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that high-end mystic guys should have very high active point powers, even if they're normally not allowed to use them very much.  In game terms, that could be because of Charges or other Limitations.  In story terms, they're know-it-alls who rarely use full power because it makes them more mysterious that way.

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Not at all I have mystic masters. I don't have most of the 5th ed Ultimates. Though I'm slowly changing that.

 

MM downplayed Material/Mandela (FOci) , Somatic/Mudra(gestures). and Incantations/Mantra limitations in SH setting.

Which I'm  not sure it should have.

 

deathstrokejla4.jpg

 

I really dislike what they've done with Deathstroke in the last several years.  And normal people use all of their brain, if Deathstroke only uses 90% then he's kind of special.  Sorry, rant over.

 

What you're seeing here is a character with a high Dex striking the lady who he knows has a big killing attack with the Incantations limitation.  Her attack is enough D6 that he's gonna take a lot of Body if she hits him with it.  So he hits her and Con-stuns her first. 

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I really dislike what they've done with Deathstroke in the last several years.  And normal people use all of their brain, if Deathstroke only uses 90% then he's kind of special.  Sorry, rant over.

 

What you're seeing here is a character with a high Dex striking the lady who he knows has a big killing attack with the Incantations limitation.  Her attack is enough D6 that he's gonna take a lot of Body if she hits him with it.  So he hits her and Con-stuns her first. 

 

Yep! I agree. While variable Limitation may fit some super mages, But Zantanna definitely has static  Incantations on all her stuff.

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There's kind of two tiers in super mages.

 

There are the Doctor Strange/Doctor Fate types (+ folks like the Spectre), who are definitely cosmic.

 

Then there are the Zatanna/Zatara types, who are basically in the the normal character range, except more flexible than most. And, as the posted image shows, physically vulnerable unless they are using protective magic - which reduces their ability to do anything else. So, VPP or big multipower characters, perhaps with incantations or other limitations. (Sargon the Sorcerer had a focus, for example.)

 

Some, especially in the Golden Age, were also good with their fists, being basically another variation on the standard Mystery Man/Woman. Even Zatanna sometimes shows a bit of this.

 

FWIW, for a fair bit of his Golden Age career, Doctor Fate was as much a brick as a sorcerer. This roughly corresponded to his half-mask period, which was built into the later retcon/explanation for this. But that's probably not the version of the character most people would want to play.

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Basically, as the GM, you are going to have to define exactly what magic is in your world, and be ready to enforce it in your campaign.

 

The thing is, you don't want to limit yourself and your players. For example, you say that magic can not be imbued into objects. Then, the Crowns if Kirn and Black Paliden are sundenly 'illegal' in your world. You say there are no Demons and Angles? Then there goes Morningstar.

 

So, be careful on your choices.

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The thing is, you don't want to limit yourself and your players.

Sure I do. That is what makes it interesting That is what makes it more real . Again the Wildcards universe aint your typical Campaign.

BTW Black Paladin was around long before crowns of krim was retconned into his history.

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The Marvel and DC universes aren't constrained by a tight conceptual framework for powers the way, say, Wild Cards is. So if the model for your campaign setting is classic Marvel/DC, then there is going to be very little that distinguishes magic from non-magic powers apart from minor details that would fall under "special fx" in Champions. I mean, there's not much difference between a supermage who can create helpful objects out of thin air and characters like Green Lantern or Forge who do the same thing.

 

Being a mage doesn't really mean much, functionally speaking, in a classic Marvel/DC-style superhero universe. If you want to make really strong distinctions, you're going to have to build them into the fabric of your game world and enforce them very tightly, which means possibly making some players unhappy when, for instance, they are told their speedster can't phase through walls because "going intangible" is strictly a "supernatural/magical" power in your game for reasons.

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You realise that the Wild Cards setting, there is no magic, right? The closest thing to a supermage is Fortinato, and he is, in reality, an "Ace with mental powers which allows him to bend reality, but is more controlled by little Fortinato if you know what I mean".

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The Marvel and DC universes aren't constrained by a tight conceptual framework for powers the way, say, Wild Cards is. So if the model for your campaign setting is classic Marvel/DC, then there is going to be very little that distinguishes magic from non-magic powers apart from minor details that would fall under "special fx" in Champions. I mean, there's not much difference between a supermage who can create helpful objects out of thin air and characters like Green Lantern or Forge who do the same thing.

 

Being a mage doesn't really mean much, functionally speaking, in a classic Marvel/DC-style superhero universe. If you want to make really strong distinctions, you're going to have to build them into the fabric of your game world and enforce them very tightly, which means possibly making some players unhappy when, for instance, they are told their speedster can't phase through walls because "going intangible" is strictly a "supernatural/magical" power in your game for reasons.

Depends on who is doing the writing. But in general I agree And it one the reason I find mainstream comics boring now.

Oh occasionally you get reboot and someone tries to redefine a here in interesting terms like they did post crisis superman..

But then the power creep begins anew.

 

Just like Post crisis the gritty street level Black Canary didn't fit with the high flying Black Canary in the Justice League and she was written out of the high powered JL. But eventually Status quo you stated asserts itself. But I find that boring in the end.

 

Character with limits, with definition give more drama and story.

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You realise that the Wild Cards setting, there is no magic, right? The closest thing to a supermage is Fortinato, and he is, in reality, an "Ace with mental powers which allows him to bend reality, but is more controlled by little Fortinato if you know what I mean".

It is an example. Wildcards has certain plot points that define the setting that make different and adds character. Just as the Aberrant world does. So too does the Godsend Agenda world. Or the World of the Elementals.

 

Each one of those worlds made a statement about the basis of Super Powers that shapes and defines that world. Makes it different and interesting. Starts decision chain that affect everything in world.

 

Some of us refer to it as world building.

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