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normal attack without lots of body


g3taso

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Surrealone made a good comment today, a darn good one.

 

"While you may not like increased stun multiplier, it has its place in helping a killing attack represent a very targeted attack that does BODY damage ... with lots of pain attached to it.  Without using some kind of GM fiat/cusom limitation, try producing a normal (non-killing) attack that does a pile of stun without doing much body and you'll find you can't, as Hero System mechanics basically don't have anything stock for this.  That's what increased stun multiplier on a low-diceage killing attack is for..."

 

 

He appears to be right. Aside from increased stun multiplier, I am stumped on how else we might accomplish this.

 

Anyone have some ideas?

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When I read "a chance to do more Stun" I think what is actually meant is "a more likely chance to STUN a target".

 

Take a look at this post:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/89999-help-with-electric-based-entangle/?p=2388803

 

and this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/90492-extra-damage-only-for-stunning/?do=findComment&comment=2406596

 

Here are some examples how I've built a Taser:

 

for 6e

 

for 6e
Taser-X12-Stun-Gun.jpg

15 Taser Shotgun: Change Environment (-6 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Turn, Stunning), Sticky (+1/2) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 9-13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Instant (-1/2), 2 clips of 12 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Turn; -1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4)
[Notes: From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -6*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he's affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.] - END=[12]

 

 

and for 5e

20 Taser Round Loaded Shotgun: Suppress STUN 8d6 (standard effect: 24 points), [DEX & STUN] simultaneously (+1/2), 8 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+0) (60 Active Points); OAF (Shotgun; -1), Can Be Missile Deflected (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Physical Manifestation (Shell sticking to victim; -1/4), Limited Range (Shell must hit target with enough velocity to stick to clothes or skin [There is no damage from impact]; -1/4)
[Notes: from 5er page 36, Negative Dexterity - At DEX 1 or less, a character is CV 0. A character with negative DEX loses control over his reactions, and must succeed with DEX Rolls to perform any Actions requiring physical movement (even just aiming at a target, or making Gestures). If he fails the DEX Roll, he cannot perform the Action that Phase. Characters with a DEX of -30 (or minus their initial DEX value, whichever is better for the character) or less may take no physical actions.] - END=[8 cc]

2-3 hits by this round will bring down most supers (unless they have some Power Defense).

I based it on the shotgun and special shells on this site: http://www.<span>tas...ser</span>-xrep
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I usually approach this type of question by building out options and comparing the average damage vs different levels of defense. To keep it simple, I'll assume ranged attacks, and keep to 60 active points as an arbitrary campaign limit. The obvious builds would be RKA with Increased Stun Multiplier (more than one level is GM call per 6e, but will try a few different levels), Energy Blast with Reduced Penetration (reduced Body damage), and NND (does no body).  I'll just compare them to 20 and 30 defense to get a feel for a high and low end:

 

12d6 Blast (60 AP), Reduced Penetration. STUN 42, Body 6, 6.  VS: 20 Def = 22 Stun/0 Body, VS. 30 Def = 12 Stun / 0 Body

8d6 Blast, NND (60 AP). Stun 28, Body 0. Will sometimes be completely ineffective. VS. 20 or 30 Def = 28 Stun or 0 Stun

3d6 RKA, +1 Increased Stun Multiplier (56 AP): Stun: 30  , Body 10. Vs. 20 Def = 10 Stun/0 Body, vs.30 Def = 0 Stun / 0 Body

 

So, before getting into GM approval land, the NND option will be most effective, except when it isn't. For all around use, the Blast with Reduced Penetration will be most reliable.

 

Cranking up the Stun Multiplier to +4, we get:

 

2d6 RKA, +4 Increased Stun Multiplier (60 AP): Stun 42, Body 7. Vs 20 Def = 22 Stun/0 Body, Vs. 30 Def = 12 Stun / 0 Body. This is very, very close to a 60 AP Blast with Reduced Penetration. It does slightly more Body, but none gets through average defenses.

 

With 6th Edition using 1/2 D6 instead of 1d6 -1 for the base Stun Multiplier on Killing Attacks, it's very closely balanced against Blast with Reduced Penetration. Of course, some form of AVAD will be better if you want something to knock out enemies with lower defenses without doing any Body damage.

 

The main difference between the old stun lotto method is consistency. The average roll remains the same, but you have a cap on the high end.

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Enjoy!

 

5e

25 The Munchkinator!: RKA 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 42 STUN), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Armor Piercing (x2; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2), +40 Increased STUN Multiplier (+10) (75 Active Points); Side Effects (GM slaps player upside head for attempting to use such a silly power build; -1), Activation Roll 14-, Jammed (GM smells cheese in the air; -1) - END=0

 

6e

25 The Munchkinator!: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point (standard effect: 1 BODY, 42 STUN), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Armor Piercing (x4; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1 1/2), +40 Increased STUN Multiplier (+10) (75 Active Points); Requires A Roll (13- roll; Jammed, Must be made each Phase/use; -1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (GM slaps player upside head for attempting to use such a silly power build; -1) 0

 

:hex: HM

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And just to make sure we don't leave out NND....

 

25 NEW & IMPROVED Cheese Wizzer (Now with MORE Limburger!): EB 2d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1), 125 Boostable Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+1 1/2), AVLD (Flash Defense Smell/Taste Group; +1 1/2) (80 Active Points); Activation Roll 15-, Jammed (-3/4), Side Effects (After noticing how cheezy a build this is the GM "accidently" drops some type of cheezy food (nachos, pizza, etc..) on character sheet.; -3/4), IAF (Belgium Cheeze Wiz ; -1/2), Limited Range (-1/4)

[Notes: HAZMAT suit not included.] - END=[125 bc]

 

:hex: HM

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I was going to mention it, but didn't see it in a quick scan of 6th as an official option. IIRC, it had the drawback of not doing knockback or being able to exert force. But I couldn't quickly find an official write up to verify it. A lot of my books are still packed from last year's move.

 

Edit: D'oh! Just looked under the Blast power. I forgot some of the limitations specific to powers were listed under them in 6e. I really need to take the time to sit down and read it from cover to cover.

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And just to make sure we don't leave out NND....

 

25 NEW & IMPROVED Cheese Wizzer (Now with MORE Limburger!): EB 2d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1), 125 Boostable Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (+1 1/2), AVLD (Flash Defense Smell/Taste Group; +1 1/2) (80 Active Points); Activation Roll 15-, Jammed (-3/4), Side Effects (After noticing how cheezy a build this is the GM "accidently" drops some type of cheezy food (nachos, pizza, etc..) on character sheet.; -3/4), IAF (Belgium Cheeze Wiz ; -1/2), Limited Range (-1/4)

[Notes: HAZMAT suit not included.] - END=[125 bc]

 

:hex: HM

This one doesn't do any body.  Doing 0 body is not the same as not doing much body ... because the latter entails -some- body being done. 

 

I noticed nobody has mentioned the STUN Only (+0) option on Blast.

 

Costs more points than Reduced Penetration. Performs identically in terms of Stun, and nobody dies ever.

See above -- STUN Only means no BODY is done.

 

 

As a reminder:

The quote that g3taso made of my commentary from another thread entailed finding a way ... using only stock (i.e. non-custom) Hero modifiers ... to take a standard attack (i.e. HA, Blast, etc.) and do large amounts of STUN without doing much BODY.  This means -some- body needs to be done, but it should be low ... with a comparatively high stun total.  That rules out NND, AVLD, and other attacks that do 0 BODY.  It also rules out custom modifiers (example: GM fiat 'does 1 body' modifiers).  Last, it rules out use of RKA/HKA with stun multiplier, since that's the one way we -know- we can produce the desired effect ... and the entire point of the remark was that it seems to be the ONLY mechanic provided that allows for it.

 

g3taso appears to be looking for another way to simulate it using bone stock modifiers.  I can't think of one, and if anyone can, I'd like to see it, as well.

 

Surreal

 

P.S. The prior example we were playing with in another thread was a 150 AP attack that on average produced 3 BODY and 111 STUN ... using 1d6HKA with a +35 STUN multiplier -- this was being compared to 30d6 HA that on average produced a LOT more BODY (~30)  and significantly less STUN (~71).  So the question asked in this thread .. if operating under the same parameters as the 150 AP attack discussion from which my remark was taken ... entails trying to produce 1-6 BODY (as an example) ... or heck, even 2-12 BODY .... and something between 70 and 100 STUN ... using non-killing attack approaches and bone stock modifiers.  i.e. Low BODY, high stun.

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I wonder if Reduced Penetration can be bought multiple times under 6th? I don't see it explicitly stated. If we're talking 70-100 Stun, then AP limits probably aren't in place in the hypothetical campaign. So, if allowed by RAW, you could buy enough Blast or whatever to get the desired amount of normal damage, and put enough levels of Reduced Penetration to bring the Body down to 1 applied multiple times. None of the Body will get through a 2 def normal person, let alone agents or villains.

 

Otherwise, I can't think of anything to match old stun lotto builds. So, in a way, we're lacking a tool to build that particular case. But it's not a tool anyone would likely miss in the normal course of events. I'd think with most GMs you'd run into some form of campaign caps first anyway.

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The biggest I think is that with the Damage Class, there is a false sense of equilency between normal and killing dixe. I know i sure thought it. Consider that 1D6 of killing does 1-6 Body damage UNLESS there is resistent defense. Now according to DC, 1D6 k is the "same" as 3D6 normal. What does it give you? 0-6 Body but ONLY after you subtract the characters natural PD.

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He appears to be right. Aside from increased stun multiplier, I am stumped on how else we might accomplish this.

 

He is crushingly wrong.

 

Stun Only is a standard modifier.

 

AVAD removes Body Damage without adding further modifiers (Sleep dart: 12D6 Blast; AVAD: Life Support: Does Not Sleep)

 

Heck - Drain: Stun.

 

And others have offered many useful builds here. It's very easy to do lots of Stun in Hero.

 

The Killing Attack multiplier was reduced in 6E so that on an average a KA did more Body and a Normal Attack did more Stun given equal Damage Classes.

 

It's very easy to do Stun Damage in HERO.

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Yet all of that results in an "inferior" solution when weighed against stacking increased stun multiplier as many time as you can for the same amount of active points (after a certain point).

 

That's why I dislike (and have barred) the advantage - if there are two solutions to a problem and one is demonstrated to be superior at resolving the problem (low body, 'pile' of stun) then why wouldn't you utilize it?

 

Here are four 'samples' at 60 AP:

 

60 Blast 6d6 (standard effect: 18 STUN), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (LS; All Or Nothing; +1) (60 Active Points)

 

60 Drain STUN 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points)

 

60 Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (standard effect: 3 BODY, 42 STUN), +12 Increased STUN Multiplier (+3) (60 Active Points)

 

60 Blast 12d6 (standard effect: 36 STUN), STUN Only (+0) 6

 

The killing attack has begun to pull ahead at 60 (and it all goes downhill from there) - it's numerically superior to the basic blast.  Against a normal every day bank robber there's no contest as to which is 'best', and that's what I dislike about it.

 

Edit: Remembered to halve the effect of the drain to 9 against the stun, but then forgot stun costs 1 for 2 so it does 18 stun like the AVAD. Originally had it pegged at 9.

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He is crushingly wrong.

 

Stun Only is a standard modifier.

 

AVAD removes Body Damage without adding further modifiers (Sleep dart: 12D6 Blast; AVAD: Life Support: Does Not Sleep)

 

Heck - Drain: Stun.

 

And others have offered many useful builds here. It's very easy to do lots of Stun in Hero.

 

The Killing Attack multiplier was reduced in 6E so that on an average a KA did more Body and a Normal Attack did more Stun given equal Damage Classes.

 

It's very easy to do Stun Damage in HERO.

Stun Only entails doing 0 body -- and as previously noted, doing 0 body is a disqualifier that impacts Stun Only, NND, AVALD/AVAD, and even Drain Stun limitations for a single-power construct.

 

We're looking for a way to do large amounts of stun but only small amounts of body using stock approaches.  So far Ninja-Bear's shown a good one by combining a 4D6 blast with an 8D6 stun-only blast.  I admit I wasn't thinking about compound powers when I made the assertion that g3taso quoted, I was only thinking about a single-power constructs; a compound power CAN do the trick.

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