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When would someone become aware of a cumulative attack?


DasBroot

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There's a mind controlling supervillain in my game that the team has tangled with several times (since the start of the campaign, actually, but the group mentalist is finally powerful enough to finish the fight without the 'Sailor Moon' effect of a group of conveniently rescued weaker psychics aiding their effect roll).

 

Rather than engage in the brain tug of war directly this time, though, the psychic has bought a Dispel (Mind Control) (All of her psychic power channeled into a 'Get out of their head!' instant all or nothing burst). 

 

The question is when would a character be aware that they should use it? They known the villain has a cumulative power because it's the only way he can eventually overcome the mental defense the team psychic provides the group (Mental Defense, Usable Simultaneously). 

 

With a standard mind control roll it's pretty cut and dry - the rules flat out state that if it's not great enough to overcome your targets defenses it fails and they become aware of the attack.  With cumulative, though, have you truly failed to overcome the defenses?

 

Opinion 1: Yes: The point behind the advantage isn't to remain undetected - it's to allow a failure to not be the end of your attempt.  They become aware, as they would during a regular failure, and thus it's a pretty good time to drop that big fat dispel and break the effect before he overcomes your defenses.

 

Opinion 2: No: The attack hasn't failed - it's been delayed.  There's no effect total there to dispel yet. If the person using cumulative's cap is hit and that's still not enough to overcome the defenses - that's a failed attempt (of course at this point it's kind of meaningless since their best can't beat you) and you become aware.  I don't like this interpretation much but I'm curious as to what others think.

 

Is the effect truly there until it is fully applied? As far as I'm aware you can't make breakout rolls while it's being stacked up (I could be very wrong - the cumulative example in Champion's Complete doesn't mention anything one way or the other about that).

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Assuming the group mentalist has Mental Awareness, why would he simply not see the attacks? Or are the IPE?

 

Also, I am assuming you let them buy the Dispel vs Mind Control even though it is specifically called out as not usable? 6e1, 127 and 152.

 

- E

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Is it? That's interesting.  Certainly would make things cleaner ... but since we use Champions Complete (and I just did a keyword search for every instance of the word dispel in it and there is nothing about how it interacts with mental powers) I'll go with 'Yes' for discussions sake.

 

As for the mental awareness angle - that kind of ties in to the question of 'when is a cumulative attack an effect?'.  Would it be visible to mental awareness since the attack hasn't succeeded yet so they're technically not under a mental effect? Edit: After a quick reread- Yes. Yes it would.  Even though there's no effect yet the target is still a Target of a mental power, which is pretty black and whitely covered under the mental awareness description.

 

(In this case specifically, though, as an aside, it's Darkness to the mental group, not IPE - funnily enough one of the best ways to notice him is when she can no longer see her mind link effect on her team-mates.)

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Assuming the group mentalist has Mental Awareness, why would he simply not see the attacks? Or are the IPE?

I immediately wondered this, as well.

 

As for the mental awareness angle - that kind of ties in to the question of 'when is a cumulative attack an effect?'.  Would it be visible to mental awareness since the attack hasn't succeeded yet so they're technically not under a mental effect? Edit: After a quick reread- Yes. Yes it would.  Even though there's no effect yet the target is still a Target of a mental power, which is pretty black and whitely covered under the mental awareness description.

 

Yup, the mental power would be visible to MA unless purchased with IPE.  This means your PC psychic could, if s/he was the target of the attack, use a held action to Dispel the incoming mental attack and keep it from ever landing, if desired.  (See note below for more thoughts...)

 

 

On a separate note:

Champions Complete has no callout on Dispel to indicate that it is not usable on Mind Control.  That said, under most circumstances Mind Control is an instant power with lasting effects and, thus, wouldn't (per Champions Complete RAW RE: Dispel) be Dispelable unless a GM allowed it.  However, because this Mind Control is purchased as low-diceage and cumulative, the lasting effect doesn't really take place until such time as the Mind Control cumulative total reaches a sufficient level to hit the target's Ego+10, Ego+20, Ego+30 (i.e. whatever level was declared as the target level for the Mind Control effect prior to making the attack) -- in which case, I think most reasonable people would rule that it should be Dispelable until that lasting effect (at the declared Mind Control effect level) kicks in.

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Thematically I could see a second 'tick' alerting them ... just seems a little off that you could mind control someone with a 1d6 cumulative mind control (with enough increased maximum effect) over the course of a minute without them being aware on some level... but as far as I can tell that's pure GM fiat.

 

I've stripped the situational factors out and asked the question to Steve.

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8     Sculpt The Perfect Servant:  Major Transform (Mental) 1 point, Penetrating (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Improved Results Group (+1), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1) (22 Active Points); Gradual Effect (1 Hour; -1 1/4), No Range (-1/2).    (All or nothing recovery, TBD)

 

Invisible effects, so reason to really notice someone quietly rearranging things in your mental cupboard. And like the movie The Matrix, it's only a matter of how strong the mind is before it stops resisting, not whether or not it will stop.

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Is that what that page says? I use Champions Complete so dread the one line page ref number answers. 

 

It's what I was leaning towards so it's good to see it spelled out - now to decide whether to break the players heart about dispel or (more likely) add 'Able to be dispelled' to the villain's limitation list.

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And we have an answer:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93422-would-cumulative-alert-the-target-of-a-mental-attack/

 

First tick, they become aware, unless IPE prevents it.

By 'first tick' I presume you mean the one that hits/lands, as that's technically the first application of the cumulative attack and hence, the 'first tick'.  Can you confirm?  See below, as to why I'm asking...

 

 

 

Is that what that page says? I use Champions Complete so dread the one line page ref number answers. 

 

It's what I was leaning towards so it's good to see it spelled out - now to decide whether to break the players heart about dispel or (more likely) add 'Able to be dispelled' to the villain's limitation list.

Assuming the above 'first tick' remark was truly a reference to the FIRST application of the effect, why is there a problem with the Dispel?

 

And FWIW, I feel Steve needs to stop referencing out-of-print material and begin referencing in-print material if he's going to use page references as/within answers.   It's kind of ridiculous to reference something people can no longer purchase in hardcopy.

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Is that what that page says? I use Champions Complete so dread the one line page ref number answers. 

 

It's what I was leaning towards so it's good to see it spelled out - now to decide whether to break the players heart about dispel or (more likely) add 'Able to be dispelled' to the villain's limitation list.

 

Ah, for completeness, then:

 

Cumulative: If a character buys this Advantage for a continuing-effect Mental Power, the target is not affected by it, and does not get to make a Breakout Roll, until the first Phase in which the total rolled by the attacker equals or exceeds the amount needed to achieve the desired effect. Until that time the Power has no effect (though the target realizes he’s being attacked with that Mental Power). If he wants, a character can declare when he starts using the power that he wants to attain an extra effect to impose penalties to the Breakout Roll — but the Breakout Roll doesn’t occur until he hits the full point total he’s indicated in advance.

Emphasis mine.

 

- E

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Steve needs to stop referencing out-of-print material and begin referencing the in-print material if he's going to use page references as answers.   It's kind of ridiculous to reference something people can no longer purchase in hardcopy.

That would be difficult since the answers don't exist in the books that are available in hardcopy.

 

- E

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Mental Powers are invisible to characters who do not have the Enhanced Sense Mental Awareness. However, the target of a mental attack can sense the source of the attack and knows what Power he’s been attacked with (though with Mental Illusions and Mind Control, he only realizes it after he breaks free from the effect).

 

pg 48 Champions Complete

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That would be incorrect.

I don't see the bit I quoted in your CC blurb? It excludes Mind Control, does it not? Which the cumulative bit overrides?

 

In any case, I was speaking more generally, I should have been clearer. There have been several cases recently where the rule referenced was not in the more "concise" rules books but did exist in the 6e 1 or 2. I am more in favor of offering them through PoD or the like than shifting the answers to the less complete version.

 

- E

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Assuming the above 'first tick' remark was truly a reference to the FIRST application of the effect, why is there a problem with the Dispel?

 

And FWIW, I feel Steve needs to stop referencing out-of-print material and begin referencing in-print material if he's going to use page references as/within answers.   It's kind of ridiculous to reference something people can no longer purchase in hardcopy.

 

Because as was correctly pointed out Mind Control's duration is 'instant' - which can't be dispelled (though since they're aware they're being attacked now they could start holding actions to dispel further attacks to try and stop further cumulative stacking  - which is honestly probably good enough). Even in the enhanced 6e rule blurb for cumulative above it doesn't say anything about applying cumulative changing the duration type to constant or persistant - it's just stacking instants, like Aid.

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You can always tell when you're being affected by a power unless it has invisible power effects (mostly, someone shooting you with a silent gun still hurts, so it varies).  But you can't tell its cumulative until the second tick goes off without some kind of detect analysis ability or something really obvious like being lit on fire.

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You can always tell when you're being affected by a power unless it has invisible power effects (mostly, someone shooting you with a silent gun still hurts, so it varies).  But you can't tell its cumulative until the second tick goes off without some kind of detect analysis ability or something really obvious like being lit on fire.

 

As Tasha posted it specifically states that you don't know you've been affected by mind control or mental illusions until the effect ends or unless it fails to affect you.

 

Due to the specific wording in the 6e cumulative posted b eepjr34 over-riding the specifics for mental combat, though, you apparently are alerted that somebody has attacked with mind control if it fails (just as if it had failed normally). You don't know it's cumulative, no, but since you're on your guard now you can definitely try to dispel further incoming attacks (provided you could perceive them, of course).

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So basically you get hit, realize instantly that someone is trying to control your mind, and that they failed.  The next phase, you realize that they are still trying to control your mind, and it is getting stronger.  Then eventually (if it eventually succeeds), you become mind controlled and effectively forget that it worked on you.  Until you break out of it, and then you're like "I can't believe I did that".  Sounds fairly cinematic to me.

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Because as was correctly pointed out Mind Control's duration is 'instant' - which can't be dispelled (though since they're aware they're being attacked now they could start holding actions to dispel further attacks to try and stop further cumulative stacking  - which is honestly probably good enough). Even in the enhanced 6e rule blurb for cumulative above it doesn't say anything about applying cumulative changing the duration type to constant or persistant - it's just stacking instants, like Aid.

It's the lasting effects (e.g. stun/body damage, mind control effects, etc.) of the instant power that can't be dispelled.  Where this gets interesting is if the lasting effects of a cumulative power have not yet taken effect (i.e. when, say, a low dice cumulative Mind Control has not yet reached the specified target level of EGO+0, EGO+10, etc.)  In such a case, there's not yet an effect to be dispelled -- only a power with something ready to have more stacked onto it.  I'd think that'd be very dispelable.  I would also think that because it's cumulative there'd still be something visible (i.e. the residue from the original attack ... onto which the next one is stacked) on the mental spectrum for it ... until such time as it completely fades/abates.

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This isn't body damage, its mental assault that is ongoing.

Breakout rolls for Mind Control do NOT resist something that's 'ongoing' ... unless the mental power is continuous.  Instead, they resist the lingering/lasting effects (carrying out the mind control -- which is likened unto the body/stun of a blast) of an instant assault that took place in the past (the successful mind control). 

 

That said, I kinda like that house rule...

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I don't see the bit I quoted in your CC blurb? It excludes Mind Control, does it not? Which the cumulative bit overrides?

 

In any case, I was speaking more generally, I should have been clearer. There have been several cases recently where the rule referenced was not in the more "concise" rules books but did exist in the 6e 1 or 2. I am more in favor of offering them through PoD or the like than shifting the answers to the less complete version.

 

- E

 

I would rule that the PC would know that they being targeted by a mind control. Once the Cumulative effect hits +0 EGO, then the target will then continue to believe that they were targeted, but not effected by the Mind Control (Unless they make their Ego Breakout Roll, then they will realize that they were briefly effected).

 

The only way to make the target not know they are being attacked with the Cumulative Mind Control is to Buy it fully invisible.

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