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Two kinds of Energy Blast


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I am thinking of a device that looks like this: there is a ranged energy weapon housed in a gauntlet. The weapon's power source is housed in a belt. The power source can be set to "overload," and will then explode a short time later. If that happens, the gauntlet-housed weapon is rendered useless until the power source is replaced. 

 

There are two attacks here: the gauntlet's energy blast and the exploding belt. But the belt also has an END reserve, or possibly holds the Charges for the gauntlet. If it matters, I favor the Charges option. 

 

How do we build this contraption?  This is what I have come up with.  It doesn't really feel right to me:

 

25 Energy Blast 10d6 vs. ED (electricity). 10 Charges (-1/4), Limited Range (10", -1/4), OIF (gauntlet and belt, -1/2). Active 50, Real 25. 

 

15 Energy Blast 8d6. Explosion (+1/2), Tine Delay (+1/4). 1 Charge (-2). Limited Power (using this power disables the use of gauntlet Energy Blast until the belt is replaced, -1), OIF (belt power cell, -1/2). 70 Active, 15 Real.

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25 Energy Blast 10d6 vs. ED (electricity). 10 Charges (-1/4), Limited Range (10", -1/4), OIF (gauntlet and belt, -1/2). Active 50, Real 25. 

 

13 Energy Blast 8d6. Explosion (+1/2), Tine Delay (+1/4). 1 Charge (-2), OIF (belt power cell, -1/2), Side Effect: Always occurs when power is used, 20d6 Dispel vs above Electrical EB, Standard Effect (60 AP) (-2) 70 Active, 13 Real.

 

- E

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Doesn't this really just boil down to a focus based version of the Human Torch's Nova Blast?

 

If so, I would build the basic gauntlet blast as you already have.

The belt explosive blast could be built as bonus dice with the Explosion Advantage cost figured not only on the bonus but on the base gauntlet damage. 

 

If the Belt is supposed to represent the power source of the gauntlets then why not build an Endurance Reserve? 

Instead of using the 1 Charge approach you could instead borrow the Expendable Foci rules from Fantasy Hero and just say that the Explosion effect uses up the Endurance Reserve.

 

HM

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Here's one way to do it. 

Note that any individual part can be customized.  The Naked Advantage part is in GM approval territory but I think the overall cost matches up ok.

 

3    Belt Solar Charger:  Recovery  (10 REC);  (10 Active Points); Slow Recovery 5 Minutes (-1), Limited Power Only in Sunlight (-1), OIF (-1/2)
9    Belt Power Cell: Endurance Reserve  (100 END, 0 REC) Reserve:  (10 Active Points); IIF Expendable (Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; Power Cell; -1 1/4)

[Notes: (x2 number of items)]

20    Gauntlet Electro-Blasters: EB 10d6 (50 Active Points); OIF (Gauntlets; -1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Linked (Belt Power Cell; -1/4), Limited Range (-1/4) END 10

    Power Cell Overload (List), all slots OIF Expendable (Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; Belt Power Cell; -1 1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Linked (Gauntlet Electro-Blasters; -1/2)

[Notes: Requires a minimum of 28 END (~3 'Charges') from Belt Power Cell to function. ]
8    1)  Power Cell Overload: Part 1 (Naked Advantage): Time Delay (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2) for up to 50 Active Points of Gauntlet Electro-Blast 10d6 EB (37 Active Points); No Range (-1/2*) END 12
4    2)  Power Cell Overload: Part 2: +Bonus EB 2d6, Time Delay (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2) (17 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) END 6

 

 

Electo Belt Overload 5e.hdc

 

:)

HM

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25 Energy Blast 10d6 vs. ED (electricity). 10 Charges (-1/4), Limited Range (10", -1/4), OIF (gauntlet and belt, -1/2). Active 50, Real 25. 
 
13 Energy Blast 8d6. Explosion (+1/2), Tine Delay (+1/4). 1 Charge (-2), OIF (belt power cell, -1/2), Side Effect: Always occurs when power is used, 20d6 Dispel vs above Electrical EB, Standard Effect (60 AP) (-2) 70 Active, 13 Real.
 
- E

 

A limitation for a side effect that 'always occurs' ... to dispel an instant power that may not be in use?  That is very strange to me -- as you can't dispel what's not in play ... which means you can't use an 'always occurs' limitation and have 'always' actually mean 'always'.  Some real problems with this build...

 

 

If so, I would build the basic gauntlet blast as you already have.

The belt explosive blast could be built as bonus dice with the Explosion Advantage cost figured not only on the bonus but on the base gauntlet damage. 

 

If the Belt is supposed to represent the power source of the gauntlets then why not build an Endurance Reserve? 

Instead of using the 1 Charge approach you could instead borrow the Expendable Foci rules from Fantasy Hero and just say that the Explosion effect uses up the Endurance Reserve.

 

HM

I, too, immediately thought of and END Reserve & REC on the belt to simulate the power source; I think it's the most accurate way to model the belt being the power source for the gauntlet.  That said, I think the naked advantage (bought on the belt) for the blast (bought on the gauntlets) fails to simulate the belt exploding, as very technically the blast on the gauntlet has to function for the belt to explode ... and that seems like an inaccurate way to model the exploding belt which I thought was supposed to be able to occur regardless of the presence/use of the gauntlet (but perhaps I misunderstood).  Thus, I'd expect the following:

  • END Reserve and REC on belt
  • Blast on gauntlet fed from end reserve
  • Stand-alone explosive power on belt -- with a single use charge (i.e. still works if END reserve is out of end)

Charges for the gauntlet seem hokey, clunky, and inaccurate in terms of modeling... but a single-use charge on the belt for its explosion makes sense to me.

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Here's one idea:

 

Gauntlet:

Blast; Charges; Focus; Lockout (stays in effect until belt replaced after it is used)

 

Belt:

Blast; Area Of Effect, Explosion, Focus; 1 Charge (possibly recoverable depending on how easy it is to get a new belt)

 

[The lockout may go on the Belt, I don't have the book with me and I forget the exact specifics of the Limitation; but it prevents one Power from being used while another is Active, in this case extending it until the 'Active' Power's Charge is recovered, which a GM may decide is worth more than normal.]

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A limitation for a side effect that 'always occurs' ... to dispel an instant power that may not be in use?  That is very strange to me -- as you can't dispel what's not in play ... which means you can't use an 'always occurs' limitation and have 'always' actually mean 'always'.  Some real problems with this build...

Actually, if you read the Dispel carefully, it can be used to dispel focused powers that are not in use. Essentially, you are "breaking" the focus in some way, exactly how that works can be defined by the SFX. 6e1, 195.

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Here's one idea:

 

Gauntlet:

Blast; Charges; Focus; Lockout (stays in effect until belt replaced after it is used)

 

Belt:

Blast; Area Of Effect, Explosion, Focus; 1 Charge (possibly recoverable depending on how easy it is to get a new belt)

 

[The lockout may go on the Belt, I don't have the book with me and I forget the exact specifics of the Limitation; but it prevents one Power from being used while another is Active, in this case extending it until the 'Active' Power's Charge is recovered, which a GM may decide is worth more than normal.]

It's stretching the definition of Lockout, but I would allow it if that was what the character wanted to go with. Probably at a -1 value instead of -1/2.

 

- E

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I, too, immediately thought of and END Reserve & REC on the belt to simulate the power source; I think it's the most accurate way to model the belt being the power source for the gauntlet.  That said, I think the naked advantage (bought on the belt) for the blast (bought on the gauntlets) fails to simulate the belt exploding, as very technically the blast on the gauntlet has to function for the belt to explode ... and that seems like an inaccurate way to model the exploding belt which I thought was supposed to be able to occur regardless of the presence/use of the gauntlet (but perhaps I misunderstood).  Thus, I'd expect the following:

  • END Reserve and REC on belt
  • Blast on gauntlet fed from end reserve
  • Stand-alone explosive power on belt -- with a single use charge (i.e. still works if END reserve is out of end)

Charges for the gauntlet seem hokey, clunky, and inaccurate in terms of modeling... but a single-use charge on the belt for its explosion makes sense to me.

I don't get why charges seem hokey to you here? The belt has 8 modules, each of which contain the "juice" for one blast. They don't recharge in the field, only in the lab where there is a "Juice Generator" .

 

- E

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Actually, if you read the Dispel carefully, it can be used to dispel focused powers that are not in use. Essentially, you are "breaking" the focus in some way, exactly how that works can be defined by the SFX. 6e1, 195.

Since 6e is no longer in print, can you point me to where this is included in the in-print and supposedly authoritative 'Champions Complete'?  I looked and there is no such info on page 58 (wherein the Dispel power is covered by Champions Complete).  I also looked on page 142 of CC -- which covers 'Breaking Things'.  As CC is the latest available in-print set of rules and is supposedly 'complete' (per its name), finding no details about use of Dispel for this purpose suggests either something changed between 6e and CC ... or CC is not actually complete (which I have asserted numerous times only to have long-time forum posters insist that it IS complete).  Let me know what you find. :)

 

 

I don't get why charges seem hokey to you here? The belt has 8 modules, each of which contain the "juice" for one blast. They don't recharge in the field, only in the lab where there is a "Juice Generator" .

 

- E

To me that sounds like either an END reserve that can only be charged in the lab ... or a fuel option where it can only be refueled in a lab -- since its is 'juice' you're talking about.  Charges I think of akin to bullets (for a gun), rocks (for a sling), gumballs (for a gum dispenser), etc. -- i.e. some physical item that is expended/lost/consumed ... unless recoverable (like a throwing star or a throwing knife, in which case it is spent and only reusable once recovered).

 

In this case, your modules aren't expended/lost/consumed (or dispensed and then reclaimed like throwing knives), but are, instead, emptied and recharged -- which strongly suggests fuel (where you can only refuel in said lab) or END reserve (whose REC only functions in said lab).  Now if he had a gumball-powered blast and the gumball was expended/lost/consumed and he could only get new gumballs in the lab, then I think a case begins to be made.

 

That said, I get the strong sense you and the OP prefer charges because you're both morphing the concept around cost preference ... instead of sticking strictly to an actual 'one thing powers the other' (a la the belt powers the gauntlet) concept.  After all, if gumballs are used to provide power, then you've changed the concept from 'the belt powers the gauntlet' to 'gumballs power both the belt and the gauntlet' in order to fit cost ... and a wee bit of concept was thrown out the window to do so.

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Honestly, I have no real preference between the two methods, but I will also not try to tell a player that his concept is invalid because it does not fit some notion (real world physics, my personal bias, or whatever else). If he wants to buid it with charges, it is completely legal and just fine with me. You can obviously do as you like in your games. =)

 

I agree with you that CC is incomplete, so I won't be looking for arguments against your logic that it is flawed. 

 

- E

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On the idea of charges: Reasoning From Effect 101;

 

Take a normal blaster, the magazine holds the ammunition, be it bullets or blaster-juice, it's just Special Effects for "this weapon can only fire X Number Of Times before needing reloading"; Now, move the Magazine to something else, it's still a magazine and the mechanical effect is "this weapon can only fire X Number Of Times", where the ammunition comes from is Special Effects. (this effect can also be just as easily modeled with END Reserve/REC as a 'battery' for blaster-juice; same overall effect, but some additional mechanics come into play.)

 

Now, we'll make the blaster a gauntlet; the ammunition is in a belt; but the end mechanic we're working with is "X Number Of Shots"; but we also want to model some additional Special Effects.

 

First, Charges: recovery is typically between scenes (or game sessions, depending on the GM, the game, and other considerations). Endurance Reserve recovery is as defined: either per Time Frame or Special Conditions (back at base, for example as a Special Effect of the Reserve Recovery).

 

Second, Mechanics; The Belt holds the ammo, as Special Effects; normally there's no particular need to model this beyond Focus, or Multiple Focus if you wish to get that detailed.

 

Third, the exploding belt, and loss of ammunition from the 'over-charge'; That's a Blast:Explosion thing, easily enough. It requires the Belt, that's a Focus; but additionally it deprives the gauntlet of its ammo source (now we're moving away from the ammo being just Special Effect into requiring a Mechanical Model);

 

Charges are easy to work with, apply them to the Gauntlet, add an additional Limitation of some nature that when the Belt is gone, it uses all the remaining Charges of the Gauntlet.

END Reserve is also easy to work with, but tying it to the same Blast as the Belt might require some additional thought, as that's two powers on one Focus (instead of two focii needed for one Power).

 

We could model the belt this way:

 

Multipower: Blaster-Juice Belt; Focus On All Slots

1) END Reserver + REC

2) Blast; 1 Charge

 

We still need a way to remove the use of the END Reserve when the belt is overloaded and explodes; Possibly putting a Limitation on the whole construct "END Reserve depleted 100% and cannot recover until belt is replaced" - or similar.

 

Either way you model it; From a SFX To Mechanics Point Of View END Reserve and Charges are equally valid constructs to model this with; though some will prefer one over the other, it is likely no due strictly to cost savings. I certainly find the Charges Method much easier to deal with in game and mechanically, it's more straight forward in my thoughts on the matter. Though as we can see, not the only answer available.

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Charges I think of akin to bullets (for a gun), rocks (for a sling), gumballs (for a gum dispenser), etc. -- i.e. some physical item that is expended/lost/consumed ...

 

All those can be example of Charges. But a Charge does not have to be some physical item.

 

If my character has bound a daemon so that it must appear when called upon but may only be called on three times each turning of the moon, I have a Summon Power with 3 Charges that take a month to recover, but there is no physical item involved.

 

If I make that more abstract and say the daemon's only function is to move things around for a limited time I might have a Telekinesis Power on Continuing Charges, and there will still be no physical "thing" to be used up.

 

If I have a magic wand that can produce 7 bolts of arcane energy a day I have a Ranged Killing Attack on a Focus (like a gun) that has Charges (like a gun) but there is nothing physical that corresponds to bullets (not like a gun.)

 

If you go back and look at the description of Charges in Champions Complete I don't think you'll find that it's required to be something physical like bullets or gumballs.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Feeding a gumball machine to a palindromedary

 

 

Lucius Alexander

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Charges I think of akin to bullets (for a gun), rocks (for a sling), gumballs (for a gum dispenser), etc. -- i.e. some physical item that is expended/lost/consumed ... unless recoverable (like a throwing star or a throwing knife, in which case it is spent and only reusable once recovered).

 

This fails to separate Mechanic from Effect.

 

Charges is a Mechanic by which we state a Power can only be Used X Number Of Times; the Special Effect of that Charge is independent of the Mechanic and must be determined and applied appropriately to the Power when creating it. Like any other Special Effect for any other Power.

 

 

This is akin to the old argument that "Energy Blast" could not be a physical attack because the word 'Energy' was in the Power Name (and the reason it was renamed to Blast); it's an incorrect assumption forcing Effect on Mechanic; and not very Hero-System like.

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This fails to separate Mechanic from Effect.

 

Charges is a Mechanic by which we state a Power can only be Used X Number Of Times; the Special Effect of that Charge is independent of the Mechanic and must be determined and applied appropriately to the Power when creating it. Like any other Special Effect for any other Power.

 

 

This is akin to the old argument that "Energy Blast" could not be a physical attack because the word 'Energy' was in the Power Name (and the reason it was renamed to Blast); it's an incorrect assumption forcing Effect on Mechanic; and not very Hero-System like.

​I disagree, since there's a Fuel Dependent limitation that first appeared in The Ultimate Vehicle.  To me this is a clear indication that the thinking behind 'charges' and 'fuel' is different from a printed material, RAW standpoint.  i.e. There's a different and specialized limitation for something that can only be used X number of times before refueling (be it a vehicle, a 'juice pack', etc.) ... compared to something that can only be used X number of times because of physical expenditure -- else there'd have been no need for the Fuel Dependent modifier to have been added.

 

​This thread's not been limited to stock 5er or 6e mechanics, so the conversation hasn't been framed that way.  Nor is this akin to Energy Blast not being able to be physical because of only a name; rather, there are two distinctly different limitations for Charges and Fuel Dependency ... for a legit reason.  If one wants to simulate something that must be refueled, like a 'juice pack', there's a specialized limitation for Fuel Dependent specifically for that ... one that's significantly different from 'Charges'.

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How about using Boostable Charges?  Put both powers into a Multipower with a common pool of charges, the regular blast can use one charge at a time, the overload blast uses them all.  It might look like this:

 

  60  Multipower, 75pts, 32 Boostable Charges (+½), OIF - Gauntlet & Belt (-½)

u  5  Gauntlet Blast: 12d6 Blast, can only use one charge at a time (-¼)

u  4  Overload Blast: 8d6 Blast Area of Effect 30m Radius - Explosion (+½), Must use all remaining charges (-½)

 

The Boostable Charges gives the Overload Blast +5 Active points for each additional charge used, so +2d6 for each additional 3 charges.  That makes the Overload Blast run anywhere from 8d6 to 28d6 depending on how many charges are left, although the GM may want to cap that.  You might also include an additional limitation to reflect the fact that replacing the belt after it explodes is probably more difficult than just recharging it.

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How about using Boostable Charges?  Put both powers into a Multipower with a common pool of charges, the regular blast can use one charge at a time, the overload blast uses them all.  It might look like this:

 

  60  Multipower, 75pts, 32 Boostable Charges (+½), OIF - Gauntlet & Belt (-½)

u  5  Gauntlet Blast: 12d6 Blast, can only use one charge at a time (-¼)

u  4  Overload Blast: 8d6 Blast Area of Effect 30m Radius - Explosion (+½), Must use all remaining charges (-½)

 

The Boostable Charges gives the Overload Blast +5 Active points for each additional charge used, so +2d6 for each additional 3 charges.  That makes the Overload Blast run anywhere from 8d6 to 28d6 depending on how many charges are left, although the GM may want to cap that.  You might also include an additional limitation to reflect the fact that replacing the belt after it explodes is probably more difficult than just recharging it.

That sounds quite nifty. I would probably go with just 16 boostable charges (+1/4) on the MP and then No Boosting (-1/4) and 10 Charges (-1/4) on the first slot. Then you always have at least a 12d6 explosion with the belt, more if there are unused Gauntlet blast charges.

 

- E

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​I disagree, since there's a Fuel Dependent limitation that first appeared in The Ultimate Vehicle. To me this is a clear indication that the thinking behind 'charges' and 'fuel' is different from a printed material, RAW standpoint. i.e. There's a different and specialized limitation for something that can only be used X number of times before refueling (be it a vehicle, a 'juice pack', etc.) ... compared to something that can only be used X number of times because of physical expenditure -- else there'd have been no need for the Fuel Dependent modifier to have been added.

The fact that there is a Fuel Charge option in no way negates Hugh's (and the other people you ignored) points. Fuel is used for vehicles because you generally think of vehicle use in terms of how long you travelled, not how many instances of distinct gas units you used. The blaster gum is a gun that can only be fired x number of times. That is the text book definition of regular Charges.

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​I disagree, since there's a Fuel Dependent limitation that first appeared in The Ultimate Vehicle.  To me this is a clear indication that the thinking behind 'charges' and 'fuel' is different from a printed material, RAW standpoint.  i.e. There's a different and specialized limitation for something that can only be used X number of times before refueling (be it a vehicle, a 'juice pack', etc.) ... compared to something that can only be used X number of times because of physical expenditure -- else there'd have been no need for the Fuel Dependent modifier to have been added.

 

​This thread's not been limited to stock 5er or 6e mechanics, so the conversation hasn't been framed that way.  Nor is this akin to Energy Blast not being able to be physical because of only a name; rather, there are two distinctly different limitations for Charges and Fuel Dependency ... for a legit reason.  If one wants to simulate something that must be refueled, like a 'juice pack', there's a specialized limitation for Fuel Dependent specifically for that ... one that's significantly different from 'Charges'.

 

You can disagree.

 

But you're still wrong.

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You can disagree.

 

But you're still wrong.

 

I do disagree, and you stated a subjective opinion (not a fact) when you began the second quoted sentence fragment with a conjunction.  If you have to replace fuel in something for it to function, there's a discrete limitation made specifically for that scenario -- one that is significantly different from the Charges limitation.  This is a fact, not an opinion.

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Why not buy the belt and gauntlets as different foci?  The gauntlets could have a power blast with 8 charges that only works in conjunction with an operable belt.  I would think that would be an additional limitation on top of the foci limitation.  The belt could have its own blast with 1 charge and is consumed by use.  I don't have my books in front of me.  It something I have been thinking through for a similar problem I have with a character concept I have been working on where a hero can make nano-fibers offering additional PD/ED from a power belt that has a power reserve.  The additional protection wouldn't require a charge of energy from the belt but would not work with the belt as a power source.  I am assuming it requires negligible power to run but not enough to stat out the cost.  Since the belt was designed as an IIF and would not likely be attacked, I decided to make it a -1/4 limitation on the PD/ED.  I might give the limitation a higher value in the case of a more obvious foci or one that a player might be willing to weaponize such as the power belt in your example.

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If you have to replace fuel in something for it to function, there's a discrete limitation made specifically for that scenario -- one that is significantly different from the Charges limitation.  This is a fact, not an opinion.

In what way is "I have to recharge this belt to be able to fire my blast another eight times" substantively or mechanically different from "I need another clip to be able to fire this gun another eight times"? You are confusing the "fuel-dependent" limitation with the special effect of "my power needs fuel". It's like saying you can't build Combat Luck with defenses because there is a mechanic called Luck, so you have to use that mechanic.

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