RDU Neil Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 It has been years since I've been looking at Hero, but I'm running a game again and coming back to an old problem. At Heroic Level, it is too easy for a martial artist type, with weapon element, and something like a quarter staff, to very quickly be doing superhero levels of damage. There was always a nice control on KAs, where adding STR can't more than double a KA damage. ON Hand Attacks (adding normal dice) the ability to stack to crazy levels was always a quick way to break a game. Question... are there newer rules around this I should reference? Is it logical to say "Of all the things being stacked, the largest value is the base, and that base can't be more than doubled." ?? Example... 20 STR/4d6 (crazy high for Heroic level, but happens)... plus Offensive Strike (another 4d6)... plus Quarter Staff (another 4d6)... and suddenly you have a martial artist hitting at super-Brick levels. TOTALLY fine for Superheroic... but for Heroic, how about this maxing out at 8d6, no more than doubling the highest base value? Thanks for any thoughts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 The staff should have a STR minimum that will reduce the impact of extra STR a little. I think it has a 10 STR min. So in that case your combination would do 10d6. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 A campaign level rule stating that 'real weapons' used to do more than double their base damage risk damaging the weapon seems quite reasonable. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted May 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Yes... I've factored in the STR minimum in this case, and that is one control... but 10d6 is still pretty crazy. Basically just wondering if newer Hero rules updates had provided any controls on normal damage weapon attacks, similar to KA weapon attacks. Maybe that's a "no." Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Neil, have a read of the haymaker with a bow thread. I am thinking that you add as many dice as you want but the damage dished out cannot exceed the maximum of the original weapon/attack. excess damage is applied to the weapon as it overwhelms its structural capacity I think that feels more apt than arbitrary limits etc. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted May 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 Doc... that is the basic concept, yes. Not arbitrary, but, like with KA, a reasonable limit when using equipment. It can only do so much. That gets a bit fuzzy when the equipment is an indestructible staff of God... heh... but that shouldn't mean it gets to do unlimited damage. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 It does. But only in the reflection of the damage. 2D6 killing attack will never do more than 12 BODY and 60 STUN. If the staff does not take the damage then the reverberations might simply be transmitted to the hand holding it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 At Heroic Level, it is too easy for a martial artist type, with weapon element, and something like a quarter staff, to very quickly be doing superhero levels of damage. You're right, and that's an issue to be careful with as a GM. Add skill levels in (2/damage class add) and it can become completely out of control in a very big hurry. So you cannot just look at a few numbers and decide if a character is safely within your preferred limits in a campaign. Others have suggested mitigating issues (damage to the weapon, etc) and I would suggest an absolute hard cap. No matter what, at this power level, you cannot go over x damage classes. Players understand that and can work with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 I have always ruled that STR + the maneuvers damage equals the base damage for unarmed martial arts attacks. I also always observe the doubling limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 I generally don't do straight damage caps in heroic games (too arbitrary for my tastes). I do think that normal weapons are breakable and usually just use something like this: Base weapon damage + DC of (20 STR - STR min for weapon) = Nd6. N x 2 = normal weapon capacity for damage. So we'll use the staff that you listed, 4d6 + 2dc = 6d6. So 12 Body is the most a normal staff can handle. A Staff has 4 body. So anything above 12 body starts to damage the staff. When you have a single attack hit 16 body, the staff breaks or becomes otherwise no usable as an effective weapon. If you manage to get your hands on a magical staff then maybe you can dish some major damage, but opponents can have magical armor and weapons too.... - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 Doubling limits are a useful tool to control damage stacking but it can still get pretty huge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 It has been years since I've been looking at Hero, but I'm running a game again and coming back to an old problem. At Heroic Level, it is too easy for a martial artist type, with weapon element, and something like a quarter staff, to very quickly be doing superhero levels of damage. There was always a nice control on KAs, where adding STR can't more than double a KA damage. ON Hand Attacks (adding normal dice) the ability to stack to crazy levels was always a quick way to break a game. Question... are there newer rules around this I should reference? Is it logical to say "Of all the things being stacked, the largest value is the base, and that base can't be more than doubled." ?? Example... 20 STR/4d6 (crazy high for Heroic level, but happens)... plus Offensive Strike (another 4d6)... plus Quarter Staff (another 4d6)... and suddenly you have a martial artist hitting at super-Brick levels. TOTALLY fine for Superheroic... but for Heroic, how about this maxing out at 8d6, no more than doubling the highest base value? Thanks for any thoughts on this. There was something about the core question that was bugging me and it finally dawned on me. What Martial Arts style allows a character to combine the Offensive Strike or any other +4DC Maneuver with a Staff? I haven't done a complete exhaustive search but the Offensive and Defensive Strikes in most Martial Arts styles commonly associated with the use of a Staff like Kung Fu and Karate are defined as Kicks. They usually limit the maneuvers that can be combined with weapons to Martial Strike and Defensive Strike. Sword based arts like Fencing and Kenjutsu are the exceptions. With that in mind a 20 STR Kung Fu user with the Staff weapon element and familiarity would still max out at 8DC before additional CSL's dedicated to extra damage. This is no better damage than they could typically do with a Kung Fu Flying Kick. It does however have much better reach (+2m) and no DCV Penalty. example: 20 STR 10 13- HTH Damage 4d6 END [2] Characteristics Total: 10 Cost Martial Arts Kung Fu 10 1) Weapon Element: Axes, Maces, Hammers, and Picks, Blades, Chain & Rope Weapons, Clubs, Default Element, Hook Sword, Polearms and Spears, Staffs, Three-Section Staff, Whips, Wind and Fire Wheels 4 2) Block (Martial Block): 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort 4 3) Disarm (Martial Disarm): 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 30 STR to Disarm 4 4) Dodge (Martial Dodge): 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort 4 5) Escape (Martial Escape): 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 35 STR vs. Grabs 5 6) Flying Kick (Sacrifice Strike): 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, 8d6 Strike 4 7) Knife Hand (Killing Strike): 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, HKA 2d6 4 8) Punch (Martial Strike): 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 6d6 Strike Martial Arts Total: 39 Cost Skills 7 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Chain & Rope Weapons, Hook Sword, Karate Weapons, Three-Section Staff, Wind and Fire Wheels [Notes: Karate Weapons include the Bo (Staff).] Skills Total: 7 0 Bo (Staff): (Total: 35 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) HA +4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); OAF (Staff; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Gestures (added to get Real cost down to 10 like in books) (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8) plus Stretching (Long Weapon) 2m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (3 Active Points); OAF (Staff; -1), Only To Cause Damage (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) plus +1 OCV with Bo (Staff) (2 Active Points); OAF (Staff; -1), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) From HSEG page 12: 4 BODY 3 Def. 20 STR adds +2 DC. Kung Fu Punch adds +2 DC. Total Damage = 8d6N. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 Silambam, Escrima / Kali, Hanbo, Jukendo, Nguni. There are other arts, those are just the ones I have heard of. Also don't have HSEG handy, so I can't easily check the strikes on those arts. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 What Martial Arts style allows a character to combine the Offensive Strike or any other +4DC Maneuver with a Staff? Many of them do, yeah. However, I'd suggest that the staff used for martial arts isn't a quarterstaff. Those are pretty heavy and not just the long stick used in a lot of martial arts. I would probably give those 2d6 or 3d6 max. The problem with using weapon breakage is that you still get the damage in, several hits worth. Does the staff break eventually? Sure, but I just did 12d6, so the guy I was fighting broke, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 You can ban weapon element if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 There was something about the core question that was bugging me and it finally dawned on me. What Martial Arts style allows a character to combine the Offensive Strike or any other +4DC Maneuver with a Staff? I haven't done a complete exhaustive search but the Offensive and Defensive Strikes in most Martial Arts styles commonly associated with the use of a Staff like Kung Fu and Karate are defined as Kicks. They usually limit the maneuvers that can be combined with weapons to Martial Strike and Defensive Strike. Sword based arts like Fencing and Kenjutsu are the exceptions. With that in mind a 20 STR Kung Fu user with the Staff weapon element and familiarity would still max out at 8DC before additional CSL's dedicated to extra damage. This is no better damage than they could typically do with a Kung Fu Flying Kick. It does however have much better reach (+2m) and no DCV Penalty. example: HM It depends, you still can be build a martial arts style that can add staff with an offensive stike. I probably built characters like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Hyperman fyi Bojujitsu and Nagajujitsu both have a 4 DC attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Hyperman fyi Bojujitsu and Nagajujitsu both have a 4 DC attack. Bojutsu and Naginatajutsu/Sojutsu are staff-only Martial Arts similar to the sword-only ones I mentioned before. I personally would not have a problem with a character in a heroic game achieving a 10DC attack with a Bojutsu Smash or Naginatajutsu Slash (5 -2 +1 Weapon +4 DC Strike). Disarm the character (by that maneuver or just destroying the staff) and they lose access to a 5 point maneuver. It's arguable that using a 10DC attack with a mundane staff has a chance of destroying the weapon. Sure, characters can mix maneuvers from different styles but I believe the minimum 10 points worth of maneuvers still applies (plus all the other requisite skills that come with a new martial art). The easiest way to deal with such a character up front is to let the player know that if they want to play a character with such a weapon-specialized martial art it means they are highly likely to meet similar NPC's in the game. *It's also worth noting that the +4DC Martial Maneuvers are really just versions of a 'Fast-Haymaker". HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 I would posit that the premise that 10DC attacks are in the superhero-only level of damage as flawed. A Samurai armed with a katana can behead an unarmored target. That pretty much requires a 10DC attack (3d6+1K plus Hit Location) to be a one-shot kill. I don't see what the problem is with allowing something similar for a staff welding character. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Silambam, Escrima / Kali, Hanbo, Jukendo, Nguni. There are other arts, those are just the ones I have heard of. Also don't have HSEG handy, so I can't easily check the strikes on those arts. - E The 1st 2 you mention are stick-fighting arts usable with clubs, NOT with a staff. I don't have time right now to check the others but I suspect they are similar to the other weapon-only damage maneuver arts. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Many of them do, yeah. However, I'd suggest that the staff used for martial arts isn't a quarterstaff. Those are pretty heavy and not just the long stick used in a lot of martial arts. I would probably give those 2d6 or 3d6 max. The problem with using weapon breakage is that you still get the damage in, several hits worth. Does the staff break eventually? Sure, but I just did 12d6, so the guy I was fighting broke, too. The stats for the Bo (Staff) build I posted earlier came directly from HSMA6e. Similar stats have been around at least as far back as the Ultimate Martial Artist 4e (and possibly even from the 3e days of Danger International). HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Yeah its a design disagreement on my part. I have quite a few minor changes in my weapons list from the 'official' one (which is in the text described as 'optional' and 'examples'). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 You know how it is with role playing games. Any weapon with an East Asian origin will usually be at least a little bit better than its European counterpart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 You know how it is with role playing games. Any weapon with an East Asian origin will usually be at least a little bit better than its European counterpart. I would like this fifty times if I could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Hyperman there is a rule whereas if you buy another martial art ks at 11- you can use any maneuver that overlaps with your original art at no extra cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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