Bitten by worldbuilding bug; favorite resources?

[Manic Typist]

So I've decided to take a crack at actually worldbuilding my fantasy homebrew. Previously I've had some rudimentary basics down - a continent and what part the campaign setting (nation) occupies, a single piece of mythology that explains why the gods don't directly intervene, etc.

 

Right now I'm brainstorming magic system, and I know the gist of how I want it to look - both in descriptive terms as well as how to build it correspondingly. However, I keep coming up with questions that ask why things are the way they are, what is the underlying symbolism that drives these realities, etc. For example, in the Mistborn setting, there are (IIRC) 4 groups of 4 metals, and each group has a relatively tight theme, and within each group there are 2 pairs of opposites, etc.

 

So, as I'm doing this, I'm also looking for guides/essays that could help structure my thinking. If you have any favorite posts, documents, or websites to share, I'd be much obliged.

 

Thanks.

[bluesguy]

Well you could look at some articles I blogged a while back.

 

There is also a great Google+ World Building group/community (make sure to read the overview and rules)

 

I will post some ebooks I have bought that are helpful on Monday

[Nolgroth]

Sheesh. If I were organized enough to ever enter a world building project that was built upon research and forethought, I might have actually finished one.

 

How big is the "world?"  Is it a region, a continent, or the whole darn planet?

 

I have, within the last five years or so, found that it is easier to build regional sections of a world. It allows me to go some depth into the setting. It also allows me to have a ready made conflict when I take two sections and snap them next to each other and throw in a border. Each region is distinct unto itself, so that distinctiveness makes for great national friction when the two have to find common ground. In all honesty, the "world" I am making is simply three regions right now: 1. temperate lowlands to mountains, bordered by oceans; 2. a desert region; 3. an archipelago of islands located in the arctic region of the planet. None of those regions are next to each other, but I am working south from the arctic islands and north from the desert. I determined the major celestial beings early on and built magic and cosmology from those roots. I now have effectively three regions I can play with and each of those is large enough to host more than enough adventure for an entire campaign. While they are not "next" to each other, all are accessible via sailing vessels. I actually went for a more "points of light" setting where the vast majority of the world is dominated by uncharted and dangerous wilderness, so the fewer detailed regions actually work better for that.

 

There are obviously disadvantages to this method. Neighboring politics can be tricky unless you build your region explicitly to host two or more nations in it. You can still feel overwhelmed by the process, which happens to me quite often. If your players insist on seeing what's beyond the mapped/designed part of your world, you are kind of stuck. Still, for me, it is the closest I have come to finishing a distinct campaign world for my (eventual) fantasy game.

 

Good luck on your project. 

[Manic Typist]

Oh, definitely just a region. I'm just developing enough of the world that impacts that region- things like cosmology, how magic works, some racial history etc. 

 

I've arbitrarily decided the planet is about the size of Jupiter (fantasy physics), that way I can functionally never run out of room if I want to drop something in. But all I'm worried about is what I need to develop at the meta-level that will actually matter at the micro. Mainly, that's magic.

 

For the region, I know I want a pseudo-Roman empire feel that has recently finished consolidating two or three non-human nations into its society, and is bordered by a pseudo-uncontrolled area filled with nomads/tribes before reaching a series of perpetually warring states inspired by Medieval rivalries. The key distinction is that in the Empire, way back in the day a huge refugee fleet arrived (from a far off land where a Dark Lord won and basically took over a continent) with sufficient force to lift the local, ensalved human population into rebellion against their orcish oppressors and the mind-controlling dragon who dominated the region.

 

The dragons in the rest of the continent who are manipulating their human societies were not terribly pleased, as much as they may have disliked that other dragon.

 

This is what I can remember quickly from when I first sketched it out in college, which was far too long ago.

 

bluesguy- Thanks! I remember reading that blog last year, but couldn't remember where I saw it when I decided to sit down and try to organize my thoughts.

[Wardsman]

How many  styles of magic?

Interesting thing is in hero you build multiple styles that co exist with strengths and weaknesses for each.

Old Rune Quest had three. Hero Systems Tulamorn also did this.

 

Another thing about Hero is with enough experience in gaming in general, you use almost any supplement for any game system and convert the gist of it over.

 

Look at Glorantha (Rune Quest). Look at Harn and its magic system. Look at Shadow World from when Hero was working with ICE.

 

got fave book that started you on this path? What was the story?

Oh and try to stay away from the D&D clones at first. You work some of that in later if you like but try thinking outside of that box.

[Wardsman]

Oh, definitely just a region. I'm just developing enough of the world that impacts that region- things like cosmology, how magic works, some racial history etc. 

 

I've arbitrarily decided the planet is about the size of Jupiter (fantasy physics), that way I can functionally never run out of room if I want to drop something in. But all I'm worried about is what I need to develop at the meta-level that will actually matter at the micro. Mainly, that's magic.

 

For the region, I know I want a pseudo-Roman empire feel that has recently finished consolidating two or three non-human nations into its society, and is bordered by a pseudo-uncontrolled area filled with nomads/tribes before reaching a series of perpetually warring states inspired by Medieval rivalries. The key distinction is that in the Empire, way back in the day a huge refugee fleet arrived (from a far off land where a Dark Lord won and basically took over a continent) with sufficient force to lift the local, ensalved human population into rebellion against their orcish oppressors and the mind-controlling dragon who dominated the region.

 

The dragons in the rest of the continent who are manipulating their human societies were not terribly pleased, as much as they may have disliked that other dragon.

 

This is what I can remember quickly from when I first sketched it out in college, which was far too long ago.

 

bluesguy- Thanks! I remember reading that blog last year, but couldn't remember where I saw it when I decided to sit down and try to organize my thoughts.

Couple of thoughts:

How much area does it take to support your dragons?

Are they sluggish with burst of activity like real reptiles? 

How smart are they? Beastial cunning? or an alien yet sophisticated intelligence?

 

Where did the orcs come from?

Example in Glorantha Trolls(orcs) came from the underworld. They were driven out by Sun god when he died and descended into hell.

Trolls(orcs) worship the darkness pantheon. They are very brutal and nietzschean in their outlook. If they can defeat you your property or food. If they take something from you it wasn't yours to begin with.

Trollkin(goblins) are the product of an ancient curse by chaos. One that that even their mightiest Gods who could work powerful magic could only partially overcome. So some trolls(orcs) are born as trollkin(goblins). just an example.

[eepjr24]

How many  styles of magic?

Interesting thing is in hero you build multiple styles that co exist with strengths and weaknesses for each.

Old Rune Quest had three. Hero Systems Tulamorn also did this.

 

Another thing about Hero is with enough experience in gaming in general, you use almost any supplement for any game system and convert the gist of it over.

 

Look at Glorantha (Rune Quest). Look at Harn and its magic system. Look at Shadow World from when Hero was working with ICE.

 

got fave book that started you on this path? What was the story?

Oh and try to stay away from the D&D clones at first. You work some of that in later if you like but try thinking outside of that box.

Surprisingly, 5e D&D has no less than 4 different magic systems in it. Wizardry, Divine, Sorcery and Pact-based (Warlocks). That is without even counting the distinctions between druids, clerics, paladins, and rangers. Or the various "sources" of sorcery. Or the other college type specializations on both sides.

 

If you want to look at a conversion of those into Hero 6e you can take a look at my stab at it. It is only through the system basics, classes and first level spells / feats / invocations. They are over on Killer Shrikes site, where you can find several other magic system representations as well (in 5th Edition parlance, but the conversion is not bad either way).

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/eepjr24/Default.aspx

 

- E

[Wardsman]

Surprisingly, 5e D&D has no less than 4 different magic systems in it. Wizardry, Divine, Sorcery and Pact-based (Warlocks). That is without even counting the distinctions between druids, clerics, paladins, and rangers. Or the various "sources" of sorcery. Or the other college type specializations on both sides.

 

If you want to look at a conversion of those into Hero 6e you can take a look at my stab at it. It is only through the system basics, classes and first level spells / feats / invocations. They are over on Killer Shrikes site, where you can find several other magic system representations as well (in 5th Edition parlance, but the conversion is not bad either way).

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Contributions/eepjr24/Default.aspx

 

- E

I would argue all priests and paladin (two sides of the same coin in my book)types are pacters after a fashion. They make deal to serve a power and then get power from that being.

Though I haven't seen 5th D&D. 

Do druids and rangers really need separate spell systems?

meh!

[eepjr24]

I would argue all priests and paladin (two sides of the same coin in my book)types are pacters after a fashion. They make deal to serve a power and then get power from that being.

Though I haven't seen 5th D&D. 

Do druids and rangers really need separate spell systems?

meh!

In some cases I would agree. The way they have constructed it in 5e is different in quite a few ways. You can read the basic players guide online I believe.

 

5e also attempted to give each class some unique spells. The spell systems are not different, probably more like colleges.

 

- E

[Manic Typist]

Unfortunately, porting over D&D would be the opposite of my goal, given that I've come up with a lot of ideas and know, for instance, how I want my two magic systems to look (and know exactly how orcs came into being, although I'll likely change their name to avoid exactly what happened with Wardsman), and am searching for recommended reading that helps from a meta/philosophical perspective. Once I start building things in HERO, I'll create a separate thread for feedback.

[eepjr24]

Ah. Then I will just second this bit from Wardsmen:

 

 

got fave book that started you on this path? What was the story?

I draw from the sources that inspire me, which tends to be books I enjoy rereading. The Deed of Paksennation, The Dresden Files, Terry Pratchett novels, Edgar Allen Poe, etc.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

Unfortunately, porting over D&D would be the opposite of my goal, given that I've come up with a lot of ideas and know, for instance, how I want my two magic systems to look (and know exactly how orcs came into being, although I'll likely change their name to avoid exactly what happened with Wardsman), and am searching for recommended reading that helps from a meta/philosophical perspective. Once I start building things in HERO, I'll create a separate thread for feedback.

What happened with me?

;P

I was just posting an example nothing states that is the only way to go.

 

As for reading I posted some game references. You could pull from real world mythology.

feel free to bounce ideas. There is no wrong way. It all depends on the world you are building.

I could come with 2 or more completely differing magic systems depending on the world I was trying to create.

 

Here is Gloranthan mythology. It maybe be what finally use but it is a good case study in world building. 

One of the creators was heavy into comparative religion.

 

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/intro-mythos/

[SteelCold]

I had the same trouble when coming up with homebrew worlds. It is easier to see things in a low fantasy POV in the beginning before tacking on the flashier stuff like magic and monsters later.

 

In my own Low Fantasy homebrewed world of Novus for example, there are no traditional fantasy elements like elves or orcs only humans. The monsters were dinosaurs ( although they weren't called that. They were called dragons, Razormouths ( velociraptors), wyverns ( pterosaurs) etc...).

[Manic Typist]

Nothing wrong; just a lot of hyper-specific examples sprang to mind that were not as useful to me because I wasn't very helpful in posting useful questions.

 

Here's something that perhaps you'll find helpful as you offer suggestions:

I want two magic systems, one a bit more classical in the sense that it tends to be slower but more powerful, and a wizard is truly dangerous when he or she is given a chance to prepare (so wizardry would require Limitations such as Gestures & Incantations, Extra Time: 1 Turn, etc.). Wizards can cast invisibility spells, or flight spells, or "Only someone of X-bloodline may enter this room safely." They're going to be like engineers/computer programmers, but they can spec for battle with some forethought (using Charges/prepared casting, putting spells into staffs/items for quick use, etc.).

 

At the same time, I also want to have a sort of "wild" or "raw" magic that is conducive to creating a warrior-mage - someone who can get in the thick of a fight and use magic and a weapon at the same time. These guys should be scary up close in the thick of things, but lose in a one on one magic fight to any wizard that is of roughly comparable power and hasn't been caught completely off guard. I have a different set of Limitations in mind, but I would allow/require advantages to make this capable of fast/loud bangs.

 

But what I'm really wrestling with is the underlying philosophy of magic, that makes it possible - that both systems exist in the same universe- that are consistent with the physics/underlying logic of the setting.

 

The idea of physics really stuck with me - I wanted to play with the idea of drawing inspiration from the real world. At first I thought about making "wild mages" about manipulating the Four Fundamental Forces (gravity, strong, weak/electromagnetism). I decided to drop that route based upon further research. Then I started considering using other aspects of physics, and found some more inspiration - ideas like inertia, force. Heck, Newton's 3 Laws could be 3 distinct kinds of magic easily enough.

 

I liked the idea of a trinity of trinities for organizing the fundamental forces/mechanisms of magic, which would be what combine together to form proper spells when multiple forces are manipulated by a proper wizard.

 

Here's what I have so far:

The Living Streams

1) Life (growth) - the creation of something from nothing; essential for any universe to exist. This allows for negentropy.

2) Stasis (continuity/inertia)  - The continuation of a thing from one moment to the next; this is why things don't blink out of existence or die immediately

3) Death (decay) - the process by which something which is to break down and cease to be as according to its nature, much how organic matter is recycled in our ecosytems through natural decay processes. Entropy.

 

The Material Arts

1) Destruction (diminishment) - breaking things, bonds, the reduction of a thing into less. Obviously battle applications.

2) Preservation (amplification) - taking something and making more of it from itself.

3) Transformation (alchemy) - taking one thing and making it into another thing.

 

The Thoughtful Disciplines

1) Domination - the imposition of one's will on one's self or another, the making of one force obedient to another, the replacing of one will with another

2) Liberation - the removal of inhibition (not always a good thing), the removal of barriers to action, thought, or will

3) ???

 

These are my initial thoughts on some potential ways of organizing things. Between the three groups, we can roughly describe a universe- there is the physical world (what you see and touch), the living world (the mystery of life/existence), and the mental world.

 

But I'm not sure if I'm content with this.

[Manic Typist]

I had the same trouble when coming up with homebrew worlds. It is easier to see things in a low fantasy POV in the beginning before tacking on the flashier stuff like magic and monsters later.

 

In my own Low Fantasy homebrewed world of Novus for example, there are no traditional fantasy elements like elves or orcs only humans. The monsters were dinosaurs ( although they weren't called that. They were called dragons, Razormouths ( velociraptors), wyverns ( pterosaurs) etc...).

I'm assuming humans domesticated them for industry/war.

[SteelCold]

If Domination adds something to one's mind and Liberation removes it then i would add Alteration, the twisting of perception like hallucinations or telepathy as a middle ground.

 

But then that is as far as i can do with physics. L.E. Modesitt Jr isn't exactly my favorite author.

[bigdamnhero]

I haven't done major worldbuilding in a while, mainly because I haven't run high fantasy in years. (My current FH campaign is set in 10th Century Europe.) But in my experience, my players' ability/willingness to absorb details about the game world is an order of magnitude lower than my ability to crank out said details. No disrespect to my awesome players, but they all have lives, jobs, and usually more than one campaign to keep up with. So while creating a detailed world, rich tapestry, etc is part and parcel of the fantasy genre, I think sometimes we as GMs worry about that more than is really needed for gaming purposes.

 

OTOH, no matter how much you flesh out, your players are still going to focus on the one blank spot on the map (metaphorical or literal) and say "Let's see what's there!" requiring you to make a bunch of stuff up on the fly anyway.

 

One solution I've heard some good GMs swear by (tho I haven't really used personally) is to have lots of "bits" prepared (kingdoms, NPCs, groups, whathaveyou), but leave it all vague as to what's where. That way when the PCs decide to focus over here, you just drop stuff in and smile and pretend it was always there.

[Richgee]

Back to your magic system and explaining how it works, the concepts in role master of essence, channelling and mentalism work quite well.

 

Essence being the magical force that permeates the world in a swirling flow. This gives rise to areas of power and lack there of.

 

Channelling is a connection to your God and is dependent on your Faith.

 

Mentalism is drawn from your inner reserves of Will.

 

The flows of essence allow you as a gm to cap active effects in certain areas as a basic limitation on all essence spells. This can be useful to push players to adapt their play style dependent on their location in the world. This also allows you to introduce less powerful enemies that pose new problems for characters used to weighing in with 3d6 RKA, 2" rad fire balls when confronted by a goblin patrol.

 

Channelling is dependant on your connection to your God, which introduces the notion that failure to adhere to the tenents of your Faith reduces the effectiveness of your magic. As Prattchet fan the notion of small gods might be fun. All God are only as powerful as the number of followers they have. This leads to priests of major religions having access to large active point spells but having a God who takes very little interest in you except to punish your transgressions. Where as as the last worshipper of a small God your spells are limited in power but your God really takes an interest in your daily life. Perhaps granting abilities not generally open to the standard priest.

 

Mentalism could run from an internal endurance pool with average active effects limited by your ego with the ability to push for an endurance multiplier.

 

When drawing your maps add the essence flows as an over lay this adds picking your ground for a battle super important for mages. This can also explain why a magic rich world puts up with those dark cultists on their door step, since they naturally set up camps where the essence is weak and their channelled powers are unafected.

 

The actual interactions and history of your pantheon of God's is less important than how they interact with the world and pc's. If you create a basic out line you can fill in the blanks as you go. You just need to note the new information for consistency. So you don't need to know how much the spider God of the deep dwellers likes the God of objects jamming the kitchen drawer at the concept phase but just how annoyed he is when the pc who worships her is when he steals the 8 point ruby eyes from the giant spider golem he sent to protect his temple.

 

Try not to kill your self getting bogged down in deatail, and definitely acquire a copy of the old shadow world box. If you insist on going the hole hog look at space master planet creation for calculating average rain fall and temperate zones. Some traveller source material covers this as well.

 

Good luck with your project

[Wardsman]

Nothing wrong; just a lot of hyper-specific examples sprang to mind that were not as useful to me because I wasn't very helpful in posting useful questions.

 

Here's something that perhaps you'll find helpful as you offer suggestions:

I want two magic systems, one a bit more classical in the sense that it tends to be slower but more powerful, and a wizard is truly dangerous when he or she is given a chance to prepare (so wizardry would require Limitations such as Gestures & Incantations, Extra Time: 1 Turn, etc.). Wizards can cast invisibility spells, or flight spells, or "Only someone of X-bloodline may enter this room safely." They're going to be like engineers/computer programmers, but they can spec for battle with some forethought (using Charges/prepared casting, putting spells into staffs/items for quick use, etc.).

 

At the same time, I also want to have a sort of "wild" or "raw" magic that is conducive to creating a warrior-mage - someone who can get in the thick of a fight and use magic and a weapon at the same time. These guys should be scary up close in the thick of things, but lose in a one on one magic fight to any wizard that is of roughly comparable power and hasn't been caught completely off guard. I have a different set of Limitations in mind, but I would allow/require advantages to make this capable of fast/loud bangs.

 

 

Rune Quest handled it this way. your fast and quick Battle magic was spirit magic (which everyone  could get) and Divine.

Spirit cost pow(mana) to use just like sorcery but unlike sorcery it was fast  to cast. It had simple effects. Usually cast on an object or person. Like Bladesharp went on a weapon. Shield spell went on a shield or parry weapon. Each spell had a # rating like Bladesharp 1 or Bladesharp 2 or Heal 5. Which told you how strong the effect was. But you learned the magic by defeating a spell spirit in spirit combat. The stronger the spell the stronger the spirit.

 

Divine magic had a little more power and bang to it. It was basically a one shot magic charge if your where an initiate and you tithed to learn it. Priests and Rune Lords(paladins) got reusable effects. If a Priest or Lord had an effect as a one shot initiates could not get it.

 

Sorcery was a bit like what you want but it was like the machine language of magic. A sorcerer with talent could whip anything. But it took time.

[Manic Typist]

Realized I never answered people's questions about what books I draw upon for inspiration.

 

The Black Company series

The Malazan series

Codex Alera series

[Lucius]

 

If I may recycle something:

 

 

Merlin: Know also, O prince...

 

Arthur: "Know O prince! Know also, O prince!" How do I know anything, when you teach me one thing then teach something else that contradicts it? How can I believe in impossible things?

 

Merlin merely nodded sagely knowing the outburst was more frustration than anything else.

 

Merlin: Someday I may introduce you to a woman I know who makes it a practice to believe six impossible things before breakfast. But for now, heed this. The most famous tale of the wizard Schrodinger concerns the death of his cat. He was unwilling to let the pet he was so fond of remain dead, but necromancy was forbidden. So he left the decision to chance, enclosing the cat in a box with a vial of a necromantic reagent, a device that could shatter the vial, and a set of enchanted dice that would cast themselves and either activate the device or dispel the necromancy, depending on their total. He expected to open the box and find either a feline zombie or a catly corpse. Imagine his surprise to hear meowing and scratching almost at once. A zombie cat of course would have been silent, as would a dead one. But before he opened the box the cat was neither dead nor undead; it was therefore alive. Until he opened the box, when it was of course dead again. Eventually he realized that unobserved phenomena are not actually one thing or another, but only potentially so, until they are observed and then they become definite and their potential to be otherwise evaporates. We see the same thing in certain magical places. If you went to Monablo for example you would have one sort of experience, a Goblin visiting would have quite another, and if you went WITH a Goblin, the site would show one nature or the other - but whichever you find won't change, unless you go away and return again.

 

Arthur: But the meowing and clawing - didn't the sounds he heard count as observation?

 

Merlin: That was probably hallucination born of grief. He really loved that cat, you see.

 

Quantum Uncertainty as a Mythic and Metaphysical Principle. Even the form and nature of a God are not set for a given mortal unless and until the mortal experiences an Epiphany.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I are debating taking that particular world up again

[Nothere]

Well I don't know about favorite, but the D&d World builder guidebook is a free pdf if you google it.

[Doc Democracy]

The Bundle of Holding has had four bundles with recommended books for those building worlds - you might not be able to buy the bundles but you should be able to look at the titles and see if any take your fancy.  They should all be available via DriveThru.  peruse the bundles here - though you have to go back to November 2016 for the fourth and beyond that for the others... https://bundleofholding.com/index/pastbundles

 

 

Doc

[Scott Ruggels2]

For world building, It may be, because i am a visual artist, but I always start with a scene. Imagine a place, a city square, or a slice of countryside, and then imagine what is populating it, and what they are doing. I then imagine what they are wearing and what is around them and think about why.  and then think about the level of magic or not. Sometimes it's all humans, sometimes it's humans and others.  So I just sit back and daydream a bit, then I start picking out things that I can recognize from history and do a bit of research. Little mental movies of what the scenes look like.

[Nolgroth]

For world building, It may be, because i am a visual artist, but I always start with a scene. Imagine a place, a city square, or a slice of countryside, and then imagine what is populating it, and what they are doing. I then imagine what they are wearing and what is around them and think about why.  and then think about the level of magic or not. Sometimes it's all humans, sometimes it's humans and others.  So I just sit back and daydream a bit, then I start picking out things that I can recognize from history and do a bit of research. Little mental movies of what the scenes look like.

 

That pretty much describes my process. I am NOT a visual artist though.