Jump to content

High Men


Wardsman

Recommended Posts

A trope created by Tolkien but not limited to him.

I'm talking about fantasy races of Men like  the Númenóreans. 

​What do you give such legendary humans?

I'm toying with longevity and maybe natural arcane or ego defense. 

Any other ideas?

 

Related question in a setting with characteristic maximum set 15 except one primary, what would having 20 as max in all primaries be worth?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you attempting to convert them from MERP? If not, what is your context?

 

I am going to assume 6e to answer your second question. If you put the "free" 20 in Dex, it would cost 60 points to go from 15 to 20 in STR, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, and BODY. If you are just giving them the option to do so, it would cost half that, 30 points (buying off the maxima penalty, essentially). 

 

- E

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you attempting to convert them from MERP? If not, what is your context?

 

I am going to assume 6e to answer your second question. If you put the "free" 20 in Dex, it would cost 60 points to go from 15 to 20 in STR, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, and BODY. If you are just giving them the option to do so, it would cost half that, 30 points (buying off the maxima penalty, essentially). 

 

- E

No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you.

 

As to the second part assume most people start 15 as their max primaries(5th ed) except one stat of their choice can go to 20 without hitting the double cost.

But someone wanting to play an Atlantean, Lemurian, whatever High man/ Elder race of Human wanted to 20 as his Maximum in all primaries.

How would you by that? Perk in package deal? And how much is that worth?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you.

Too much variation for me to have recommendations. 

 

As to the second part assume most people start 15 as their max primaries(5th ed) except one stat of their choice can go to 20 without hitting the double cost.

But someone wanting to play an Atlantean, Lemurian, whatever High man/ Elder race of Human wanted to 20 as his Maximum in all primaries.

How would you by that? Perk in package deal? And how much is that worth?

Concept is the same, just math is harder in 5th because stats have a wider variety of costs. You'd do it one of two ways, IMO. Either put the 30 points as part of the package (if anyone in that race could have it), or just have the player buy it off on their sheet for 30 points if it is just a personal thing for that player. Just need to figure the cost of all the stats you want them to be able to raise from 15 to 20, that is the cost of the "perk" or buyoff.

 

- E

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing is, Numenoreans as depicted in Tolkien are just flat out higher point totals than commoners. You can expect them to have higher stats and skills and fewer disads.

 

In order to balance things out with 'regular' folk, you'd have to come up with some sort of Numenorean-specific complication to pay for it--at least a massive scary Hunted, perhaps a Susceptibility.

 

As for stats--we used to house rule that no more than 50% of character points could be spent on stats. Stats have always been an extremely efficient way to spend points in Hero (i.e. they are too damn cheap) and a campaign with real weapons and an emphasis on melee combat only exacerbates that problem. You may be able to do something similar by enforcing combat value limits but I've never tried those.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Related question in a setting with characteristic maximum set 15 except one primary, what would having 20 as max in all primaries be worth?

Characteristic maximums are a poor idea that leads to headaches, as you are already finding out. The way to avoid the headaches is to not use that bad idea.

 

I've been over the ground before, but if you won't take my word for it, we could go over it again.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What was it Marcdoc said about applying Characteristic Maxima to pixies and elves and ogres but not to elephants and rabbits and palindromedaries?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Characteristic maximums are a poor idea that leads to headaches, as you are already finding out. The way to avoid the headaches is to not use that bad idea.

 

I've been over the ground before, but if you won't take my word for it, we could go over it again.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What was it Marcdoc said about applying Characteristic Maxima to pixies and elves and ogres but not to elephants and rabbits and palindromedaries?

I'm sorry in a non super campaign 50 ST is silly.

Your rebuttal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some suggestions for Peoples of Legend (Atlanteans, Numenoreans, Nephilim, whatever)

 

Trace of Divine/Faerie/Alien/etc. Blood: (Total: 13 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Life Support (Immunity: Most disease; Longevity: 200 Years) (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> Regeneration (1 BODY per Week) (Real Cost: 2) <b>plus</b> Regeneration (1 BODY per Week), Can Heal Limbs (7 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Month which Recovers every 1 Season (-3/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage (Only to recover from Impairing or Disabling short of amputation or destruction of the affected part.; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Stubbornly Strong of Will, Even in the Face of Death: (Total: 16 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Resistance (+1 to roll) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> Does Not Bleed (15 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

 

More Fully and Truly Themselves, in Mind, Body, and Spirit: (Total: 9 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Power Defense (4 points) (4 Active Points); Always On (-1/2) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +5 Mental Defense (5 points total) (5 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Only Works Against NON "Legendary" Opponenents (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

More Deeply Aware: (Total: 8 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) +1 PER with all Sense Groups (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Mental Awareness (5 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Gifted in Leadership: (Total: 9 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) +1/+1d6 Striking Appearance (vs. all characters) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> +2 with Deduction, Tactics, Oratory (6 Active Points); Conditional Power Only when making plans or giving orders to benefit non-Legendary people (-1/2) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a High Palindromedary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry in a non super campaign 50 ST is silly.

Your rebuttal.

 

First, in general, you are right. In a non-super campaign, for most characters, 50 STR is silly.

 

A quibble: A Dragon, Giant, or Demigod, may well have a STR of 50. I acknowledge this is a quibble, because those won't usually be player characters, and if they are, then we may have to discuss the exact meaning of "super vs non super campaign."

 

Now, if all you are saying is that the person running the game should set and enforce reasonable limits on characteristics, you and I are in perfect agreement. I may think 15 for things like STR and DEX is kind of low for an absolute limit on a Human character in a Heroic game, but I am still not going to argue if that's where you want to set it.

 

If you are trying to say something else, let me know.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a normal palindromedary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, in general, you are right. In a non-super campaign, for most characters, 50 STR is silly.

 

A quibble: A Dragon, Giant, or Demigod, may well have a STR of 50. I acknowledge this is a quibble, because those won't usually be player characters, and if they are, then we may have to discuss the exact meaning of "super vs non super campaign."

 

Now, if all you are saying is that the person running the game should set and enforce reasonable limits on characteristics, you and I are in perfect agreement. I may think 15 for things like STR and DEX is kind of low for an absolute limit on a Human character in a Heroic game, but I am still not going to argue if that's where you want to set it.

 

If you are trying to say something else, let me know.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a normal palindromedary

Well in Strength we have bench marks. 15 STR lifts 440 pounds with ease. More when pushing.

A 20 is 880 pounds with ease. More with pushing. I'm thinking russian Olympic lifters here.

Not saying 20's are not out there there. But I would argue they are rare in the population.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well in Strength we have bench marks. 15 STR lifts 440 pounds with ease. More when pushing.

A 20 is 880 pounds with ease. More with pushing. I'm thinking russian Olympic lifters here.

Not saying 20's are not out there there. But I would argue they are rare in the population.

Just a note, 15 STR does not lift 440 pounds "with ease". 15 STR let's you barely lift 440 pounds and stagger a few steps before having to set it down. It's essentially a dead lift weight, not a casual my pick up and strike out at full pace weight.

Also, heroic games often use encumbrance rules of one form or another so your movement, CV, and DEX rolls will often be effected long before you get up to 440 pounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you.

 

As to the second part assume most people start 15 as their max primaries(5th ed) except one stat of their choice can go to 20 without hitting the double cost.

But someone wanting to play an Atlantean, Lemurian, whatever High man/ Elder race of Human wanted to 20 as his Maximum in all primaries.

How would you by that? Perk in package deal? And how much is that worth?

Basically, you buy it by buying it.

 

If I have Merfolk who breathe water, they buy the elements of Life Support that let them breathe water.

 

If I have Drakine or something similar with natural armor, they buy Resistant Defense.

 

They don't have to pay more or less or differently just because other characters can't buy those abilities, or must buy them differently (say, by paying points for a magic item that permits water breathing.)

 

And if someone wants to play a Legendary Scion of the Lost City of Ee or whatever with STR 20 and DEX 20 and CON 20, that costs 10 pts for STR and 20 fo0r DEX and 10 for CON - it costs what it costs. If someone else wants the same thing, they can play another Legendary Scion and pay the points for those characteristics. Conversely, if someone wants to play a Pixie but have STR 20 the answer is simply No. Not for 10 pts nor for 20 nor for 50, because if the world is such that a Pixie with STR 20 doesn't exist, then it doesn't exist at any price.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Shockingly, in many worlds a palindromedary is not permitted at any price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You got me thinking on the topic, and I remembered something from Andre Norton's Witch World novels.

 

"The Old Race Break, but Do Not Bend": (Total: 20 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) +10 Mental Defense (10 points total) (10 Active Points); Only Works Against Mind Control (-1), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever defense breached; Take 3d6 STUN each segment ; -3/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Power Defense (10 points) (10 Active Points); Only Works Against Mental or Spiritual Transform (-1), Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever defense breached; Take 3d6 STUN each segment ; -3/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

 

The earliest inhabitants of Estcarp could not be turned into the Unsouled (living automatons) - on the other hand, they could be subject to geas, so I've probably built this wrong....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that they were ALL subject to the geas that kept them out of Escore, until the children of Simon Tregarth broke that geas....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a note, 15 STR does not lift 440 pounds "with ease". 15 STR let's you barely lift 440 pounds and stagger a few steps before having to set it down. It's essentially a dead lift weight, not a casual my pick up and strike out at full pace weight.

Also, heroic games often use encumbrance rules of one form or another so your movement, CV, and DEX rolls will often be effected long before you get up to 440 pounds.

How does that compare to the military lift mentioned in the AD&D books

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does that compare to the military lift mentioned in the AD&D books

Which version? 5e D&D PHB:

 

If you carry weight in excess of 10 times your Strength score, up to your maximum carrying capacity, you are instead heavily encumbered, which means your speed drops by 20 feet and you have disadvantage on ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws that use Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution.

The reference there is to pounds, so at 20 Strength you could walk at 10 ft per round with 200-300 lbs but suffer a lot of penalties. In the current D&D game I am playing it has never come up, even for the paladin who carries a great sword and 3 other weapons or the fighter who has like 6 I think. lol (I am not the GM)

 

- E

 

Edit: Added full strength range.

Edited by eepjr24
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which version? 5e D&D PHB:

The reference there is to pounds, so at 20 Strength you could walk at 10 ft per round with 200-300 lbs but suffer a lot of penalties. In the current D&D game I am playing it has never come up, even for the paladin who carries a great sword and 3 other weapons or the fighter who has like 6 I think. lol (I am not the GM)

 

- E

 

Edit: Added full strength range.

So I am giving a boost just using the values straight. Doesn't matter to me though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some lifts from the Ultimate Brick (5th edition, but I don't think it's an area where the system has changed):

 

Bench Press: 75%

Deadlift: 90% <-- note, a Hero system lift is not a dead lift, though by the description it should be higher than your dead lift, but w/e

Clean and Jerk: 50% <-- not a military press, which would be a lot lower, but an overhead lift

 

One weight lifting site lists percentages of lifts vs a baseline lift. In the case of a military press, it says you should be able to do 60% of your bench press.

 

So, for a 15 STR:

 

Bench Press: 440 x .75 = 330 lbs

Deadlift: 440 x .9 = 396 lbs

Military Press: 330 x .6 = 198 lbs

 

So, a 15 STR is pretty strong. A 20 STR is looking at a 660 lb bench, a 792 lb dead lift and a 396 lb military press. Pretty beastly, but well within the realm of human.

 

World records:

 

Bench Press: 1075 lbs

Deadlift: 1155 lbs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 11 months later...

So let's get this straight. You know what happened at the end of Three Against the Witch World? You're my new god of reading stuff. 

 

On topic, the 5th Edition "Human child of Empyrean parent" package deal gives +3 STR, +1 Dex, +3 Con, +5 Int, +3 Pre, +4 Com, total cost, 22 points.

I'm a God of Reading Stuff??

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I thought I was just a God of Palindromedaries

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No just a general legendary race of Man. They could be Atlantean, Lemurian what have you.

 

Kryptonians?  :snicker:

 

Joking aside, the original concept for Kryptonians was that they were an older, more advanced human race, "at the absolute peak of mental and physical perfection."  If you're looking for something for the source of the heroes of your campaign's "ancient legends"--Hercules, Gilgamesh, Kahless, to name but a few--then the Kryptonians, or something like them, just might work for you.

 

Hope that helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...