Mental killing attack

[GCMorris]

Many many years ago I built a mentalist on 4e who had an RKA with many advantages and limitations. I can't remember all of it but it was Based on ECV with 0 END and Persistent. It was particularly nasty and after one battle the GM told me I couldn't use that anymore. Was he being sour because he didn't account for it in his game or do you think it was simply too much cheese?

[Hugh Neilson]

I've heard on a few occasions of the guys who want AVLD vs Resistant Smell Flash Defense.  Exotic defenses tend not to be purchased as Resistant. I've considered in the past whether they should be "resistant" by default (ie there is no non-resistant version of Mental, Flash and Power defense).

 

6e AVLD scaling up as the defense gets more uncommon helps.  

 

I would note that any power that's continuous to the point it keeps going with no further rolls, end, actions, etc.from you needs a reasonably obvious shutdown condition. Enforcing that helps with such constructs.

 

My usual litmus test is group consensus. If it's OK for a PC to have this construct, an NPC could have a similar construct that, perhaps, works against power or flash defense.  Either the construct is not allowed in our games, or it is available to PC and NPC alike,

[Christopher]

Was he being sour because he didn't account for it in his game or do you think it was simply too much cheese?

Did you properly pointed out the power existed to him and the full extend (does body past any reasonable defense)? If not I would even say it is your fault for not doing so. If you did, he might not have realised it back then. In any case it is his perogative to veto any power, limitation or complication he can not work with.

 

The cheese smell is also pretty strong:

In 5E and 6E Mental Attacks and AVAD/NND need a extra "Does Body; +1" advantage to even do body. Pretty sure it was marked with some warning too (asuming the sheer cost was not warning enough).

 

One of the design rules the pricing is based on is:

"Every attack should have a defense". I could add in this case "[...] a defense that is reasonably common and likely to be encountered in the setting".

The validity and pricing of practically anything depend on the setting you run in. If nobody (not even the best mentalist) has Resistant Mental defense, I would think your attack does not cross the "resonable and common" part. Having it forbidden there is to be expected.

[BoloOfEarth]

I've (very sparingly) used a mental killing attack -- as Christopher pointed out is a Mental Blast, AVAD (Resistant Mental Defense; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) -- in my campaign.  Though in full disclosure, one of the heroes has a Mass Stoneskin spell that, in addition to normal rPD and rED, also grants a few points of resistant Mental Defense, so the attack could only do BODY to the PCs with a good roll.  However, it was deadly on normals and NPC supers, making it a great plot point as well as a potential dilemma for the hero PC (do I protect my teammates, or the innocent normals that the villains are going after?).

 

Also as Christopher pointed out, the cost alone is a limiting factor.  2-3 dice of damage costs 50-75 points, and even minimal resistant MD makes it effectively worthless.  (I don't know if it's RAW, but I've ruled that non-resistant MD would reduce the STUN damage if the target also has any resistant MD, similar to how non-resistant PD or ED reduces the STUN of a regular killing attack.)

[BoloOfEarth]

As to the OP's power, in 6th edition such an RKA would require at a minimum:

 

AVAD (resistant Mental Defense; +1)

Does BODY (+1)

ACV (OMCV vs. DMCV; +1/4)

Constant (+1/2)

0 END (+1/2)

Persistent (+1/4)

 

Rather than Persistent on there, I'm guessing it should be Uncontrolled (+1/2).  And given the 0 END nature, I'd point out the following from 6E1:352

 

 

 

The GM should be wary of Uncontrolled attacks bought to 0 END, as these can be extremely powerful. At the very least he should require the power to have a set duration in addition to a reasonably common and obvious way to turn it off.

 

To make it a "true" mental power, he's also need Line of Sight (+1/2) on there.

 

Thus, a 1d6 RKA would cost 79 points, and be a fire-and-forget almost sure-fire killer. 

 

While I would allow a single-shot version, I would not allow a 0 END Uncontrolled version.  (To be fair, I wouldn't allow a 0 END Uncontrolled version of practically any power, lethal or non-lethal.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've heard on a few occasions of the guys who want AVLD vs Resistant Smell Flash Defense.  Exotic defenses tend not to be purchased as Resistant. I've considered in the past whether they should be "resistant" by default (ie there is no non-resistant version of Mental, Flash and Power defense).

 

 

 

I think this might be the ideal approach, really.  Just figure those defenses by default are always resistant (and may not be bought "non-resistant" for a limitation).

[BoloOfEarth]

Unless AVAD attacks that go against resistant exotic defenses are relatively common, I'd hesitate to make all exotic defenses inherently resistant.  The cost of powers that go against them should take care of that on their own.

 

I would, however, add a new level to the AVAD chart for Extremely Rare, with Resistant Flash Defense (non-Sight or Hearing), because there should be a price difference between vs. normal Smell FD and vs. resistant Smell FD.  If the character wants oh-so-exclusive exotic cheese, they have to pay the full import fee.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Here's the thing.  If you allow people to buy an AVAD against Resistant Hearing Flash Defense, that's still only going to cost +1 1/2 advantage.  But nobody, nobody buys that.  Its an attack against a non-existant defense.

[BoloOfEarth]

The Mass Stoneskin I mentioned in my earlier post, which one of my players created prior to the start of the campaign, was bought through Resistant Protection and thus includes 3 points of Resistant Flash Defense for Sight and Touch Groups.  Hardened, even.  True, it's not Resistant Hearing Flash Defense, though I'd expect Hardened Resistant Touch Flash Defense would be considered even more unlikely.  But it totally fit the power's concept, and since one of the other players has a touch-based spatial awareness (he feels anything passing through his shadow field) it might actually be useful.

 

I have a villain that I think I'm going to give a "numbness" Blast AVAD (Resistant Touch Flash Defense) damage shield just so that defense comes into play and the player's teammates can appreciate how well he helps protect them.

[Christopher]

The Mass Stoneskin I mentioned in my earlier post, which one of my players created prior to the start of the campaign, was bought through Resistant Protection and thus includes 3 points of Resistant Flash Defense for Sight and Touch Groups.  Hardened, even.

The players designed spell made it a "Reasonably common defense" for the setting, thus affecting the validity of it greatly (in the positive direction).

You could even argue the Advantage should cost less for your scenario. After all the defense is not nearly as uncommon as the default rules asume. Every single value only makes sense in the context of a certain Campaign. What costs X in the books (and most campaigns), might cost Y in any specific campaign.

 

The rules even mentioned that repeatedly. i.e. what is a "Targetting" Sense group for a campaign:

"In a campaign where many predators hunt by scent, Smell should be considered a targetting group for pricing sense affecting powers".

[Christopher R Taylor]

Perhaps the AVAD chart could go further.  Go to Uncommon and Rare and then to "Absurd" and "are you kidding?" as steps at +1/2 additional advantage each.

 

So you want your killing attack to be defended by double hardened, impenetrable smell flash defense?  That's a +2 base advantage.

[Cantriped]

As a general rule, I don't think Resistant (or Hardened, or Impenetrable) should ever be specified in an AVAD construct. The Resistant, Hardened, or Impenetrable qualities already specify clearly what they do and when they should apply; making powers that create new uses for these modifiers only serves to make things more complicated in an already complicated game.

 

For example, AVAD (Power Defense) is okay, but AVAD (Resistant Power Defense) is generally not okay with me. Why?

Because an AVAD (Power Defense) Blast should be to an AVAD (Power Defense) Ranged Killing Attack what an Energy Blast is to an Energy Ranged Killing Attack.

Which is to say your Resistant Power Defense should reduce the BODY and STUN taken from either an AVAD Blast or an AVAD RKA, and your Nonresistant Power Defense should reduce the BODY and STUN of AVAD Blasts, but only the STUN of an AVAD RKA (just like nonresistant energy defense reduces the STUN of an Energy RKA). The same goes for AVAD (Mental Defense); a "Mental Killing Attack" construct should be built to work like any other Killing Attack does, even if it is very, very, very expensive.

 

Hardened or Impenetrable I have fewer good reasons not to use in an AVAD construct, especially in regard to powers other than Blast/RKA. It just feels awkward, and somewhat unfair to use these modifiers as AVAD conditions.

 

Years ago I built a super toad monster with a sonic croak. Which was built as an RKA, AoE (Cone), AVAD (Hearing Flash Defense). It both terrified and angered my players, neither of which had any Hearing flash defense. Their ears started bleeding. Good times. 

[BoloOfEarth]

Perhaps the AVAD chart could go further.  Go to Uncommon and Rare and then to "Absurd" and "are you kidding?" as steps at +1/2 additional advantage each.

 

So you want your killing attack to be defended by double hardened, impenetrable smell flash defense?  That's a +2 base advantage.

 

I'm guessing what you're saying is meant as sarcasm, but I honestly don't see doing that as a real problem in general.

 

Let's say Skunkman has an 80 active point power:  Toxic Odor Spray.

 

Bought as a straight killing attack, it would be 5d6+1 RKA, doing an average of 18 BODY and 36 STUN.  I'd consider someone with 15 resistant / 30 total ED having relatively decent defenses, and that person would take 3 BODY and 6 STUN from that attack.

 

The same power bought as AVAD (double-Hardened, Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense; +2), Does BODY (+1), would be a 1d6+1 RKA, doing an average of 4 BODY and 8 STUN straight through the defenses of everybody except Captain Nose (who happens to have double-Hardened, Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense).

[Cantriped]

The chart for AVAD in CC/FHC normally ends at Rare, or a +1 advantage for an RKA (since it already targets rPD or rED). If each additional modifier is house-ruled to be treated as an additional rarity level, then an AVAD (Double-Hardened, Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense) should be worth +2 1/2 when applied to an RKA instead of +2 (and +3 if applied to a Blast). Otherwise the modifier value is capped out at +1 1/2, and the GM should look very closely at anything rarer than unmodified Smell Flash Defense or Resistant Power Defense before allowing them.

 

Toxic Odor Spray: RKA 1d6, AoE (16m Cone; +1/2), AVAD (Double-Hardened, Impenetrable Smell Flash Defense; +2 1/2), Does BODY (+1) (75 APs); Restrainable (-1/2). Cost:  50 Points.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Ultimately I may be one of the first players to at least publicly suggest the KA vs mental defense as a way of bypassing almost any defenses; I proposed it on Red October BBS as part of a character build I had (a bodyguard/assassin for the big bad guy in my campaign).  But I really think that non-standard defenses should be default resistant (and only resistant); or to put it another way, you can't build a KA that bypasses them.

 

That was the same place I suggested the infinite recursive absorb build as well.  That's 4th edition absorption that lets you feed some of the points you absorb back into the absorb so it has no top end.