DCV and CSL

[steph]

Hello hero gamers friends

 

i have a blank

 

1- when a dcv is split. For example when i use multiple attack. And i want to put my CSL in DCV, i split my dcv before or after i put my CSL .

 

2- If a character is Stun can he put is CSL in DCV ?

 

Thank you for your time

 

Excuse my english (Not my first language)

 

Steph

 

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

If you are stunned, I don't believe you can assign CSLs at all.

 

Modifiers to DCV that halve it or reduce it to zero are applied last, so if I am using a maneuver that halves my DCV, like Multiple attack, I would start with my 4 DCV, add my 2 CSLs to get 6 and halve it to get 3. I would not halve my base 4 DCV to get 2, then add 2 CSLs to get 4.

[steph]

Thank you Nelson

[NuSoardGraphite]

If the Combat Skill Levels have been bought persistant they can apply while stunned. But I would consider that a Stop sign power.

[eepjr24]

If the Combat Skill Levels have been bought persistant they can apply while stunned. But I would consider that a Stop sign power.

You could also buy Defense Maneuver IV:

 

Defense Maneuver IV: Acts as a “sense,” i.e., the character need not spend a Half Phase to use his Defense Maneuver (using it takes no time); any Combat Skill Levels that improve the character’s DCV are considered Persistent for this purpose

[akrippler]

What about PSL's in this situation?  Im building an archer for a heroic campaign, and all bows have concentration 1/2 DCV on them. 

 

So DCV CSL's apply before you half it, would DCV PSL's apply after? 

[eepjr24]

What about PSL's in this situation?  Im building an archer for a heroic campaign, and all bows have concentration 1/2 DCV on them. 

 

So DCV CSL's apply before you half it, would DCV PSL's apply after? 

I don't know of a situation where that would apply, but yes, that would be the correct order. Note that PSL cannot offset the penalty you reference since it is part of the Concentration limitation. Otherwise people would be getting something for nothing (A limitation that does not limit is not worth any points). You would need to buy regular DCV points with the limitation Only while firing a Bow, if the GM allows that.

 

- E

[akrippler]

I don't know of a situation where that would apply, but yes, that would be the correct order. Note that PSL cannot offset the penalty you reference since it is part of the Concentration limitation. Otherwise people would be getting something for nothing (A limitation that does not limit is not worth any points). You would need to buy regular DCV points with the limitation Only while firing a Bow, if the GM allows that.

 

- E

 

I see what your saying;  In a super game, where you would buy your own weapons.  If you put the limitation concentration on your weapon, but then bought PSL's to counteract that then yeah its not limiting anything (I guess you could argue the cost of PSL's outweigh the savings of a concentration limitation) .

 

But Im playing a heroic game where the bow is defined in the book as having concentration, also its bought with silver not character points.  My goal is to help my shit DCV when firing the bow, what would you suggest? Or is it impossible?

[eepjr24]

Buy more DCV? Or buy 3 point combat skill levels with "All Bows", those can be shifted to DCV, OCV or add damage. Buy Stealth and use it to attack from hiding. Buy armor so when people shoot back you can take a hit. Or buy Combat Luck for the same effect. 

 

Aside from spending points, you can also use terrain (fire from up hill or a roof top, they have to come up to get you), nock an arrow one phase and use the defensive firing rule the next (FH 6e, 196), have your party members keep people away from you, etc. 

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

PSL's offset penalties. Halving your DCV is not "a penalty", but "a halving". You could buy levels with DCV when using a bow, but these would still be added to DCV before the halving.

 

Personally, I would allow a "naked limitation buyoff" similar to a naked advantage to remove Concentration from a Bow as equipment. Hasn't that been written up somewhere?

[Christopher]

PSL's offset penalties. Halving your DCV is not "a penalty", but "a halving". You could buy levels with DCV when using a bow, but these would still be added to DCV before the halving.

 

Personally, I would allow a "naked limitation buyoff" similar to a naked advantage to remove Concentration from a Bow as equipment. Hasn't that been written up somewhere?

It was one of the APG's. It lacked a name, but I called it "Naked Buyoff". But I keep not finding it right now.

 

At it's core it works like a single power Naked Advantage. Just rather then the difference between AP with/without Advantage, it takes the real cost with/without Limitation as Base Value.

There is no "group" version for this mechanic. But I asume all bows count as one power for this purpose.

 

Edit: FInally found it:

APG I 142 "Temporarily removing limitations" (Yield sign)

[akrippler]

Did some more reading and found a resolution.  You can "Hurry" a shot by sacrificing 4 OCV to get rid of the concentration limitation. (From the fantasy hero 5e book) 

 

So just buy PSL's to negate the 4 OCV hit for "Hurrying" 

[eepjr24]

Did some more reading and found a resolution.  You can "Hurry" a shot by sacrificing 4 OCV to get rid of the concentration limitation. (From the fantasy hero 5e book) 

 

So just buy PSL's to negate the 4 OCV hit for "Hurrying" 

Hurrying is a different thing (and a maneuver, which is important). You are probably talking about Defensive firing on pg 170 of FH5e. In that case, you could buy PSL's for that with GM permission. Note that you could not buy them for Hurry, because it is a maneuver and you cannot offset maneuver penalties. 

 

Make sure you read the whole thing. You are going to need to either have an arrow already nocked from a previous phase, have 5 extra STR over the weapon minimum (rushing) or have Fast Draw so that you can use a 0 phase action to draw and nock the arrow. If you opt for the +5 STR, that incurs another -2 OCV penalty. So without either Fast Draw or preparing the phase before, you are looking at -6 OCV. You can offset all of that with PSL, but it will cost you 9 points if you do it for a single bow type / attack type (short bow ranged strike) or 12 points if you do it for all bows, one attack (all bows ranged strike). Note also that these cannot be used for any other purpose, like offsetting range penalties or hit location penalties.

 

- E

[akrippler]

Poor choice of words your right, its called Defensive Firing. 

 

Firing a bow is ridiculously complicated.... and taxing.  Need weapon training, minimum str, your taxed in terms of all the penalties associated with firing said bow (concentration, or like we've talked about OCV penalties so bad your forced to buy skill levels to offset) . Fast draw skill rolls (Multiple if you don't have the bow already out) .  and all this stuff is considered by the rules, where as taxes on casters are considered optional.    Is all this needed because the idea that you can get the 9 character point bow for "Free" ?  How much do you need to tax a wizard in order to make it feel balanced?  A wizard can create a 2d6 killing attack for way less than the cost of all the taxes an archer has to eat in order to be viable. 

[Christopher]

Poor choice of words your right, its called Defensive Firing. 

 

Firing a bow is ridiculously complicated.... and taxing.  Need weapon training, minimum str, your taxed in terms of all the penalties associated with firing said bow (concentration, or like we've talked about OCV penalties so bad your forced to buy skill levels to offset) . Fast draw skill rolls (Multiple if you don't have the bow already out) .  and all this stuff is considered by the rules, where as taxes on casters are considered optional.    Is all this needed because the idea that you can get the 9 character point bow for "Free" ?  How much do you need to tax a wizard in order to make it feel balanced?  A wizard can create a 2d6 killing attack for way less than the cost of all the taxes an archer has to eat in order to be viable. 

The bow was a very hard to train for weapon. Wich is why we developed Crossbows and later Firearms. They were not inherently superior, but thier training requirement was less.

The crossbow was perhaps the first industrialsiation of warfare.

 

Regarding the mages: Aren't mages in fantasy supposed to buy thier spells with points? And limit them insanely as a result.

If so, that is one heck of a drawback already. Far beyond those few points you would need to fire a bow without concentration penalty.

 

Note that if you want to draw comparisions, the DCV+movement penalty is the same thing as the "Attack of Opportunity" from D&D. It is just a bad idea to make a ranged attack in range of the enemy.

[eepjr24]

Poor choice of words your right, its called Defensive Firing. 

 

Firing a bow is ridiculously complicated.... and taxing.  Need weapon training, minimum str, your taxed in terms of all the penalties associated with firing said bow (concentration, or like we've talked about OCV penalties so bad your forced to buy skill levels to offset) . Fast draw skill rolls (Multiple if you don't have the bow already out) .  and all this stuff is considered by the rules, where as taxes on casters are considered optional.    Is all this needed because the idea that you can get the 9 character point bow for "Free" ?  How much do you need to tax a wizard in order to make it feel balanced?  A wizard can create a 2d6 killing attack for way less than the cost of all the taxes an archer has to eat in order to be viable. 

I guess I should have listed another option that will get around all of this. Just buy the bow with points. Then you can build it without the concentration limitation or worry about any of the rest of it. That's what mages do. =)

 

- E

[bigdamnhero]

APG I 142 "Temporarily removing limitations" (Yield sign)

That seems mostly directed at Powers the character has paid points for, and when the Limitation is only removed under certain circumstances. So I'm not sure it's the best fit for equipment not paid for with points, and that is in effect whenever the character uses that equipment?

 

I've always built this effect as:

 

Mobile Archer:  +3 to offset a specific negative DCV modifier imposed by a group of conditions (1/2 DCV with Bows) [9 RP]

 

The value of the PSL varies based on the character's DCV; this is built for a DCV 6 Character. Yes, technically the Concentration penalty is a halving, not a minus; but I don't feel that distinction makes a relevant difference in this case. I've used this for years with multiple characters and never felt it was unbalancing.

[Steve]

It was one of the APG's. It lacked a name, but I called it "Naked Buyoff". But I keep not finding it right now.

 

At it's core it works like a single power Naked Advantage. Just rather then the difference between AP with/without Advantage, it takes the real cost with/without Limitation as Base Value.

There is no "group" version for this mechanic. But I asume all bows count as one power for this purpose.

 

Edit: FInally found it:

APG I 142 "Temporarily removing limitations" (Yield sign)

 

As an example, if you take Concentration off the build of a Heavy Longbow (38 Active Points), it adds 1 point to the Real Cost. I could see charging a character a modest amount of points for a Talent that would allow them to fire a bow without Concentration, maybe one point for a specific type of bow (Heavy Longbow) and more for a variety of bow types. What would be a fair cost is up to each individual GM, but I could see Legolas-style bow use costing at least a few points. It's a special talent that character has, since they invested precious character points in it.

[eepjr24]

As an example, if you take Concentration off the build of a Heavy Longbow (38 Active Points), it adds 1 point to the Real Cost. I could see charging a character a modest amount of points for a Talent that would allow them to fire a bow without Concentration, maybe one point for a specific type of bow (Heavy Longbow) and more for a variety of bow types. What would be a fair cost is up to each individual GM, but I could see Legolas-style bow use costing at least a few points. It's a special talent that character has, since they invested precious character points in it.

But they did not pay for the 38 points. And that's why I am more on board with them either paying for DCV, CSL, or buying the power themselves if they don't want the penalty that comes with the free equipment. Because if you let the archer do this, are you going to let the rogue spend a point to buy off the STR min on blades? How about letting the fighter buy off the "real armor" limitation?

 

- E

[Steve]

There is already an ability that can be bought to deal with STR Minimums. In Dark Champions it was called "Gun Muscle" and was simply STR bought with a limitation that it only applies versus STR Minimums.

[eepjr24]

There is already an ability that can be bought to deal with STR Minimums. In Dark Champions it was called "Gun Muscle" and was simply STR bought with a limitation that it only applies versus STR Minimums.

Which would be the equivalent here of buying CSL with Bows, only to offset DCV penalty while firing. The equivalent for what you are talking about would be a 1 point "Talent": No STR Mins for Guns.

[Steve]

Which would be the equivalent here of buying CSL with Bows, only to offset DCV penalty while firing. The equivalent for what you are talking about would be a 1 point "Talent": No STR Mins for Guns.

They're not exactly the same. Gun Muscle was STR bought with a -2 Limitation, so it depended on how much you bought. The ability I was suggesting as a possible option earlier was derived from the difference in Real Cost found by removing Concentration. That calculation exercise only yielded a point or two for the heaviest bows. For the lighter bows, it yielded no difference.

 

Admittedly, if you remove the STR Minimum limitation from weapons to calculate what a character would pay to have it as an ability, it probably wouldn't cost too many points. I haven't gone through that calculation exercise though.