Suffocation (Change Environnement)

[steph]

Hello guys,

 

I don't find a rule in the 6th edition about suffocation. In the Hero designer you have the suffocation option for 20 PTS but with no define option. Do you know where i can find it in the rules books ? Because i miss it !

 

Thank you for your time

 

Steph

[Scott Baker]

Hello guys,

 

I don't find a rule in the 6th edition about suffocation. In the Hero designer you have the suffocation option for 20 PTS but with no define option. Do you know where i can find it in the rules books ? Because i miss it !

 

Thank you for your time

 

Steph

APG 83

[steph]

TY man your my savior

 

Steph

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its way too cheap, for what it does honestly.

[Hugh Neilson]

It prevents recoveries. I think if you try to build a Suppress or Drain REC that matches it, the result will be considerably more expensive. However, I also think that the denial of recoveries is not worth the points it would cost to model it, when in actual play. Has anyone worked with the construct, or do we just eyeball it and say "too cheap"?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Like you say, it is way cheaper than it would cost to zero out someone's Recovery, I'd guess.

[Midnightninja]

I think the pricing for it was just double the cost of Self-contained Breathing. Just like the CE stun effect is twice the cost of Cannot be Stunned.

[Tasha]

Hello guys,

 

I don't find a rule in the 6th edition about suffocation. In the Hero designer you have the suffocation option for 20 PTS but with no define option. Do you know where i can find it in the rules books ? Because i miss it !

 

Thank you for your time

 

Steph

pg 19 Champions Complete. Under Holding Breath & Drowning.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Like you say, it is way cheaper than it would cost to zero out someone's Recovery, I'd guess.

Is it too cheap in theory, or too cheap in practice? I haven't seen it used in a game, and to me that is the acid test. I may be biased, as I suggested a suffocation option when 6e was in progress, as the rules provide no straightforward way to duplicate this effect. A 6d6 NND Blast doesn't simulate this appropriately, and that's basically the only pre-6e writeup.

 

How does the pricing really compare? 1 point of CE cancels out 1 meter of any mode of movement. 1 meter of most modes of movement costs 1 point. -1 to a PER roll for a sense group, or a single CHAR or Skill roll costs 3. That's comparable to the cost of +1 to those rolls. 4 points is -1 to all rolls based on that CHAR.

 

REC costs 1 point, so on a 1:1 basis, 20 points to cancel out 20 REC seems like enough to handwave to an absolute effect.

 

For 21 points, I can force a CHAR roll at -7. I doubt that will be successful very often. Let's make that an Ego roll or you stand around apathetically (see Fog of Apathy thread). I think most characters will be more effective while under Suffocation than under that CE.

 

Tasha gave us the CC reference - it's p 130 of 6e v1 for those using the big books. You have to spend at least 1 END per phase. You probably spend more than that anyway. You can't take REC. Do you take them in combat very often? Loss of PS 12 is the big hit and, while powerful, I don't think it is more powerful than adding 4 DCs to your attack for the same 20 points.

[eepjr24]

For 21 points, I can force a CHAR roll at -7. I doubt that will be successful very often. Let's make that an Ego roll or you stand around apathetically (see Fog of Apathy thread). I think most characters will be more effective while under Suffocation than under that CE.

16.2% chance of rolling 7 or less. About 1 in 6. Perhaps you will be more effective in the very short term (seconds) but you will be much less effective if you suffocate and are dead.

 

Things you cannot do while in the CE:

 

1. Breath

2. Take Recoveries (even Post-Segment 12 Recovery);

3. Spends a minimum of 1 END every Phase (and eventually STUN, and then BODY)

4  Cannot speak

5. Cannot use powers with the Incantations Limitation

 

Points assigned to each:

1. Hard to assign an absolute value, I think the implied effects below cover it.

2. So this is basically a Suppress. To achieve this, you need to drain 4 points of REC. Let's call it a 1d6 REC Suppress, 0 END. That's 15 points and has to have a defined way to turn it off, just like the CE.

3. Not sure exactly how to cost this. END Drain would cover it till you get to 0. Then you'd need a linked STUN drain and then a linked BODY drain. Maybe just a drain with variable effect? In any case, I would go somewhere around 5 points on this, it's not a full d6 of drain.

4. Cannot speak. Simple enough, darkness versus Normal Hearing, transmit only (-1/2?) for 2 points. Going to post a rules question on this one to be sure.

5. This one is a little rough. I'd honestly say it is covered in #4, generally. Amazing how easy it is to take out a wizard who uses incantations, eh?

 

So raw points wise, I come up with 22 points. It will get maybe a bit higher when you start putting AoE on it because of rounding at lower levels. Impact wise, I think it is close to balanced for normals, IF the GM is strict with enforcing the "reasonably common and obvious way to remove, negate, or avoid the effect (other than Life Support)". For higher power Fantasy or Champs, it gets a bit cheap for the effects.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

It gets a bit unclear when you start adding modifiers to the effects.  You can't build a power using advantages and limitations.... then use that power as a base with its Real Cost and build something else out of it using advantages and limitations.  That's not giving you remotely an accurate read on its cost or power level.

 

The active points of something that does all this

 

(cannot):

 

1. Breath

2. Take Recoveries (even Post-Segment 12 Recovery);

3. Spends a minimum of 1 END every Phase (and eventually STUN, and then BODY)

4  Cannot speak

5. Cannot use powers with the Incantations Limitation

 

Is going to be up in the high 70s or more.  Especially since its absolute: it doesn't matter what your recovery is, its zero now.  No body, no stun, no endurance coming back.  More importantly no post-12 free recovery.  That's a lot more than 20 points worth of power.

 

I mean put it this way: if someone came up to you as a GM and said "I built this guy" and assigned all those abilities to one power for 20 active points, then applied limitations to it what would your response be?

[eepjr24]

It gets a bit unclear when you start adding modifiers to the effects.  You can't build a power using advantages and limitations.... then use that power as a base with its Real Cost and build something else out of it using advantages and limitations.  That's not giving you remotely an accurate read on its cost or power level.

Actually, that's exactly how Talents are built. Not saying I am in favor or against, but the rulebook does it at least in some cases.

 

 

The active points of something that does all this

 

(cannot):

 

Is going to be up in the high 70s or more.  

In a Supers game? Sure. For an absolute I would probably go with 40 REC (highest I saw in the Master Villains was 30), which with Standard Effect would be a 12d6 Suppress. (180 AP just for the suppress)

 

In a Fantasy Hero game, closer to 30 AP, I'd say. 

 

Overall, though, you can either use it as is, not use it in your campaign or tweak the price as you see fit. Like I said, seems low for Champs, closer to correct for FH or low powered street stuff.

 

- E

[bigdamnhero]

In a Supers game? Sure. For an absolute I would probably go with 40 REC (highest I saw in the Master Villains was 30), which with Standard Effect would be a 12d6 Suppress. (180 AP just for the suppress)

 

In a Fantasy Hero game, closer to 30, I'd say.

30 REC in a Heroic game? Even in Supers games I rarely see RECs above 20!

[eepjr24]

30 REC in a Heroic game? :jawdrop:Even in Supers games I rarely see RECs above 20!

Sorry, I will fix it, I meant 30 AP. I don't think I have seen a REC above 15 in Heroic, and that was pretty high powered fantasy.

 

- E

[bigdamnhero]

Whew! I thought I was going to have to seriously up my game there!

[Hugh Neilson]

16.2% chance of rolling 7 or less. About 1 in 6. Perhaps you will be more effective in the very short term (seconds) but you will be much less effective if you suffocate and are dead.

Most combats are over in the short term, not the long term. If you stand apathetically still for a full turn, or spend it prone, I suggest that you will not last long enough to roll that 1 in 6 chance in most combats. While you are standing or prone at half DCV, multiple attacks will easily KO you, from which point the character is just as readily killed.

 

Things you cannot do while in the CE:

 

1. Breath

2. Take Recoveries (even Post-Segment 12 Recovery);

3. Spends a minimum of 1 END every Phase (and eventually STUN, and then BODY)

4  Cannot speak

5. Cannot use powers with the Incantations Limitation

 

Points assigned to each:

1. Hard to assign an absolute value, I think the implied effects below cover it.

2. So this is basically a Suppress. To achieve this, you need to drain 4 points of REC. Let's call it a 1d6 REC Suppress, 0 END. That's 15 points and has to have a defined way to turn it off, just like the CE.

3. Not sure exactly how to cost this. END Drain would cover it till you get to 0. Then you'd need a linked STUN drain and then a linked BODY drain. Maybe just a drain with variable effect? In any case, I would go somewhere around 5 points on this, it's not a full d6 of drain.

4. Cannot speak. Simple enough, darkness versus Normal Hearing, transmit only (-1/2?) for 2 points. Going to post a rules question on this one to be sure.

5. This one is a little rough. I'd honestly say it is covered in #4, generally. Amazing how easy it is to take out a wizard who uses incantations, eh?

 

So raw points wise, I come up with 22 points. It will get maybe a bit higher when you start putting AoE on it because of rounding at lower levels. Impact wise, I think it is close to balanced for normals, IF the GM is strict with enforcing the "reasonably common and obvious way to remove, negate, or avoid the effect (other than Life Support)". For higher power Fantasy or Champs, it gets a bit cheap for the effects.

I think this suggests the pricing is in the ballpark. How many people have ever paid for a Drain or Suppress REC? There's a reason for that - it's not very effective compared to its cost. Try building a Mental Blast starting with Blast and it's a lot more expensive than 10 points for 1d6, in large part because we really don't let characters take full advantage of IPE and LoS Range. So it's not priced based on that build. I'd consider Suffocate to be similar.

 

The CE has to be maintained with END, so the first choice to shut it down is to take out the opponent. Pretty sure that was what we were trying to do in combat. If we end the combat within a turn, that Suppress had limited impact (assuming we did not have limitations it triggered). If it takes two turns, I missed a single PS 12 recovery. I think +4 OCV, +4 DCV, +2 SPEED, +4 DCs with a different attack, +40 STUN or +10 PD and ED (or combinations) would have made that opponent at least as powerful if he could not Suffocate my character.

 

If 20 points is underpriced for CE, I wonder what the Choke Hold maneuver should cost!

 

Still waiting for ANYONE who has seen this in use in a real game. A 1d6 Penetrating RKA (+1/2) costs 22 points. Tack on some AoE (like a CE will often have) and this will devastate a typical team of PC's as or more effectively than CE. That one I have seen in action, with all at the table being shocked at how the PC's were left shredded and bleeding at the end of the combat.

[eepjr24]

Confirmed in Rules forum, not being able to speak is accomplished through a 3 point Darkness.

 

- E

[DasBroot]

30 REC in a Heroic game? Even in Supers games I rarely see RECs above 20!

 

I've seen 40 and 60 REC in 60 AP games.  I managed to talk the 40 down to 10/40 (purchased 6 point of rec, then 30 points with 'endurance only' limitation - they really only bought it for their end use) but that 60 was basically invincible for the power level of the game. 

 

On the topic I agree that 20 points seems too low - and yet in play probably about right.  Denying recovery actions probably isn't a make or break situation in a combat (it would seriously annoy the players more than anything else if used against them - but only annoy them) and the counter - self contained breathing - isn't particularly uncommon (at least in any game I've ever played in or run).  You'll choke the psychic out for a second but then her power armour wearing friend will clean your clock (also, she'll use mental illusions and send you to a corn field long before passing out).

 

The 'Stun' one for 40, though, can go die in a fire.

[eepjr24]

I've seen 40 and 60 REC in 60 AP games.  I managed to talk the 40 down to 10/40 (purchased 6 point of rec, then 30 points with 'endurance only' limitation - they really only bought it for their end use) but that 60 was basically invincible for the power level of the game. 

Yeah, I would generally not allow 60 REC in a 60 AP game. Unless that was basically his only real defense.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've never seen recovery that high, but its interesting what happens to characters when you do ram up an unusual stat.  60 presence, for example.

 

Still, even in a Fantasy Hero game, zeroing out recovery and eliminating post-12 recovery, plus silencing the character and the rest is worth more than 20 points.

[eepjr24]

Still, even in a Fantasy Hero game, zeroing out recovery and eliminating post-12 recovery, plus silencing the character and the rest is worth more than 20 points.

Zeroing out recovery does effectively eliminate post-12 recovery since you recover nothing.

 

For points, like I said, 20 ends up within quibble range for low powered campaigns. I could build it with points for the average "normal" according to RAW for around 22 points without even trying to be efficient.

[Christopher R Taylor]

So you can get the darkness vs speech, negate recovery entirely for any character, and put a continuous END drain on the target all for 22 points?

[Netzilla]

So you can get the darkness vs speech, negate recovery entirely for any character, and put a continuous END drain on the target all for 22 points?

He did so in post #10 of this thread.

[eepjr24]

And just to be clear, I did it as an exercise, I am not saying that I would generally allow a power like that in a low powered fantasy campaign. Or if I did, people would be very interested in either getting it from them and then eliminating them or just eliminating them. 

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

I've seen 40 and 60 REC in 60 AP games.  I managed to talk the 40 down to 10/40 (purchased 6 point of rec, then 30 points with 'endurance only' limitation - they really only bought it for their end use) but that 60 was basically invincible for the power level of the game. 

 

On the topic I agree that 20 points seems too low - and yet in play probably about right.  Denying recovery actions probably isn't a make or break situation in a combat (it would seriously annoy the players more than anything else if used against them - but only annoy them) and the counter - self contained breathing - isn't particularly uncommon (at least in any game I've ever played in or run).  You'll choke the psychic out for a second but then her power armour wearing friend will clean your clock (also, she'll use mental illusions and send you to a corn field long before passing out).

 

The 'Stun' one for 40, though, can go die in a fire.

 

It still must hit, and must have a counter. Doing no actual damage remains a limitation. I can see it being a very annoying power, though, hence the APG and a fairly hefty cost.

 

I've never seen recovery that high, but its interesting what happens to characters when you do ram up an unusual stat.  60 presence, for example.

 

Still, even in a Fantasy Hero game, zeroing out recovery and eliminating post-12 recovery, plus silencing the character and the rest is worth more than 20 points.

 

Still looking for someone who has seen it in play to tell is whether it actually is overpowering.  Silencing is pretty situational, and only costs 3 points anyway.  Must use 1 END per phase - are there characters who don't?  Is setting a combat underwater so the PC's have all the same drawbacks massively overpowered?