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5th or 6th:What does your endurance economy look like for FH?


Wardsman

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End Reserves are about right in 5e, for me. A bit too expensive in 6e, I use Killer Shrikes house rules to level it out a bit.

 

In my current magic system for FH, I don't allow personal END Reserves. END reserves exist either as part of an item (plan right now is for most to be 0 REC and expendable) or as part of mystically important area's characteristics. There is also the possibility of END reserves on items that can only be used for particular types of spells (Fire only, Void only, Blood magic only) and have their own variable REC systems (only recovers in a forges fire, only recovers in a crypt, Recovery = Body spilled in blood for 1 turn, etc). This allows augmenting if I find the LTE system to be too much or need to help out lower level mages till they can build up END or REC or the like.

 

I use LTE for all classes, still noodling ideas for exactly how spells use LTE. Current thought of the moment is something shifting the LTE chart up one level so it starts at 1 per minute instead of 5 minutes. I may not even need to do that, since I require a large number of limitations and anything under -4 can be made up simply with extra END cost. I do not generally restrict pushing so melee classes can easily build up LTE as well.

 

In very low magic games i skip END. It evens out for the most part in those games. 

 

As always, YMMV. I have always had more trouble with players trying to min max when it comes to magic than anything else, so the restrictions I use might be too much for a different meta.

 

- E

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In general, I like END Reserves for magic, as it's a good way to build a caster who has a high "mana pool" but isn't necessarily the energizer bunny physically. In our current campaign, it didn't fit the feel of the magic systems, so everyone uses personal END. (Except alchemists of course, who run off Charges.)

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I'm designing three different systems and setting in my head at once. I know I need to focus. But hero gets me thinking that way.

I like the cost of endurance reserve for superheros. But a campaign with characteristic maxima and a gritty feel it seems cheap.

 

Like Marcdoc I think 1 per 5 pts as default END cost. I'm thinking if END Reserves are available they are created with the create effect(LOng time to do, LTE). In my urban fantasy where Creating END reserves are the initiating ritual that turns you into a mage, it might even be 1LTE per 1 pt. spent.

I'm even toying with the idea that magic can only used END reserves in that setting. But I'm not sure about. It intrigues me but I also like personal energy going into magic.

 

In another fantasy setting I'm toying with Mana and Mana REC based on EGO and ENT to take advantage of the age limitation. But Mana is tied to LTE as well. So if you throw around a lot heavy mana you will fatigue yourself just as if you tried to force march.

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Not sure where the post you are talking about from Markdoc is, but at 1 AP per 5 END you are making the END Reserve more expensive than regular END, since you don't get any REC for free. Maybe tweak it to 1 per 7?

 

For gritty low power level, you can just cap the END reserve at 20 END or don't cap it at all but cap REC at 2. You can run hot for as long as you have END, then you are done for a long, long time.

 

To mix END reserves with the "personal energy" feel, just get restrict or limit to 0 REC on END reserves. Then have players buy AID to the REC which is powered with their own END. Or Aid / Healing to the END of the END Reserve. If that amount of personal END is not enough, require a Side Effect: End DRAIN or Increased END cost x3 minimum.

 

- E

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Not sure where the post you are talking about from Markdoc is, but at 1 AP per 5 END you are making the END Reserve more expensive than regular END, since you don't get any REC for free. Maybe tweak it to 1 per 7?

 

Oh you misunderstood.  I meant 1 END  cost or used per AP in the power as opposed to 1 per 10 that is standard now.

Markdoc makes it LTE. I don't want to go that far. By I understand the thinking.

 I been thinking restricting them to powering by mana stones and casting circles would limit the magic.

And at first the creation rituals would not have Rec built in.

 

Got a lot of ideas for Casting Circles and Sanctum ideas beyond it providing a large END Reserve with recovery.

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Endurance reserves IMO is a pretty good hands off way to try tax casters in a fantasy setting.  Force spells to come out of END reserves and you as the GM don't have to come up with a complicated system of charges or delayed effect charges or whatever.   If you feel casters need to be taxed somehow in a fantasy setting its the best approach I can think of so far,  I haven;t had much experience actually PLAYING fantasy games in hero yet so I don't know if its entirely necessary. 

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Not sure where the post you are talking about from Markdoc is, but at 1 AP per 5 END you are making the END Reserve more expensive than regular END, since you don't get any REC for free. Maybe tweak it to 1 per 7?

 

For gritty low power level, you can just cap the END reserve at 20 END or don't cap it at all but cap REC at 2. You can run hot for as long as you have END, then you are done for a long, long time.

 

To mix END reserves with the "personal energy" feel, just get restrict or limit to 0 REC on END reserves. Then have players buy AID to the REC which is powered with their own END. Or Aid / Healing to the END of the END Reserve. If that amount of personal END is not enough, require a Side Effect: End DRAIN or Increased END cost x3 minimum.

 

- E

Problem I've been dealing with is in my Urban FH system, where mages must consecrate  reservoirs of power(Create END reserve, no REC) is that it is cheaper on LTE wise to create a new one than to use another ritual that uses LTE to refill empty ones.

 

I found two options.

  1. Change END reserve cost to what the CHA cost of END is
  2. Ignore the adjustment power rule that treats END in a reserve like normal END cost wise for drains and similar effects

Because in this campaign it isn't and endurance reserve so much as mana or quintessence.  

If I'm mixing this with supers. like Kandris Seal,  I lean to #1. If it is no supers, #2.

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Problem I've been dealing with is in my Urban FH system, where mages must consecrate  reservoirs of power(Create END reserve, no REC) is that it is cheaper on LTE wise to create a new one than to use another ritual that uses LTE to refill empty ones.

 

I found two options.

  1. Change END reserve cost to what the CHA cost of END is
  2. Ignore the adjustment power rule that treats END in a reserve like normal END cost wise for drains and similar effects

Because in this campaign it isn't and endurance reserve so much as mana or quintessence.  

If I'm mixing this with supers. like Kandris Seal,  I lean to #1. If it is no supers, #2.

I forgot to factor the stat multiple in. That helps but still.

Assume character spends one LTE 1 to create a 1 active point END reserve(10 end, no recovery) using the create effect.

So I want to have spell to let them refill this mana pool.

 

Refresh the sacred well:

1d6 heal endrance reserve 10 active points +0 (treat as as enchantment/create) so it user gets enchant bonuses ( I give a plus +3 if made by thy own hand to enchant, -3 if not),  cost LTE. Extra time to bring up to the create level, Standard effect(3.5 x 2 for END =7 +3 if you enchanted the reserve, not going to apply negative)

 

So for some extra time and 1 LTE you can fill a non recharging reserve with 7 to 10 END . Not perfect but it might do.

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I forgot to factor the stat multiple in. That helps but still.

Assume character spends one LTE 1 to create a 1 active point END reserve(10 end, no recovery) using the create effect.

So I want to have spell to let them refill this mana pool.

 

Refresh the sacred well:

1d6 heal endrance reserve 10 active points +0 (treat as as enchantment/create) so it user gets enchant bonuses ( I give a plus +3 if made by thy own hand to enchant, -3 if not),  cost LTE. Extra time to bring up to the create level, Standard effect(3.5 x 2 for END =7 +3 if you enchanted the reserve, not going to apply negative)

 

So for some extra time and 1 LTE you can fill a non recharging reserve with 7 to 10 END . Not perfect but it might do.

Any other ideas on how to fix? recharge a non recovering END reserve should be easier than creating one.

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I think folks would be more able to help if you laid out exactly what you are using to create the END reserve, why it is non recovering, etc.

 

Off the top of my head, I would probably do one of two things. Either increase the cost to create it, probably by adding conditional recovery as a requirement of the system or simply say that the END reserve has no END in it when it is created.

 

Example of the first case:

Endurance Reserve

20 END (2 AP, 2 RP)

3 REC, Side Effects: Happens whenever the REC is used, 2d6 END Drain (3 AP, 2 RP)

 

4 RP total.

 

You could mix the two as well, require at least 1 REC and start the reserve with no END.

 

- E

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Problem I've been dealing with is in my Urban FH system, where mages must consecrate  reservoirs of power(Create END reserve, no REC) is that it is cheaper on LTE wise to create a new one than to use another ritual that uses LTE to refill empty ones.

 

I found two options.

  1. Change END reserve cost to what the CHA cost of END is
  2. Ignore the adjustment power rule that treats END in a reserve like normal END cost wise for drains and similar effects

Because in this campaign it isn't and endurance reserve so much as mana or quintessence.  

If I'm mixing this with supers. like Kandris Seal,  I lean to #1. If it is no supers, #2.

As I said I figured out I wasn't taking in account the multiple for healing end but without an in game bonus and using standard effect they can only recharge up to 7

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Okay, so I stand by what I said then, the two options above would "fix" the problem. Another fix would be just to rule that any "creation" effect costs double LTE. Another would be to rule that Aids to END reserve cost half or no LTE. If that is too powerful, add rule that each END reserve without  REC can only be recharged X times before it is worn out. You just need to come up with the campaign ground rules that fit for you. That is the rule that will "fix" your problem. But without knowing WHY the END reserves cannot be recharged it is difficult to suggest something that might be a good fit. Without knowing how you came to arrive at the cost of 1 LTE for a 10 END non recovering reserve, we have nothing to balance it against.

 

- E

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Okay, so I stand by what I said then, the two options above would "fix" the problem. Another fix would be just to rule that any "creation" effect costs double LTE. Another would be to rule that Aids to END reserve cost half or no LTE. If that is too powerful, add rule that each END reserve without  REC can only be recharged X times before it is worn out. You just need to come up with the campaign ground rules that fit for you. That is the rule that will "fix" your problem. But without knowing WHY the END reserves cannot be recharged it is difficult to suggest something that might be a good fit. Without knowing how you came to arrive at the cost of 1 LTE for a 10 END non recovering reserve, we have nothing to balance it against.

 

- E

Trying to replicate something like the Mana Stone(no REC) vs powerstone (with REC) set up in GURPS.

 

As to why 1LTE per 1 AP in END reserve?

 

  1. All magic uses end from reserves unless it is a enchant effect
  2. the Create Effect uses LTE, Some non -create effects will be deemed enchantments and use LTE(IE refill spells)
  3. normally 10AP in End reserve gives 100 end, using create effect that normally cost 1LTE WHICH IS EVEN CHEAPER than my example
  4. Either case it is cheaper in LTE just create a new reserve via create than try refill, I'd like to fix that

 

 

I

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I don't know GURPS at all, outside of a brief player experience in GURPS Wild Cards. Can you explain why a Mana Stone has no REC and a Powerstone has it?

 

You laid out the What, but not the Why. Why does creation only take 1 LTE? Why not 2 or 1 per END created or 1 per 5 END created? There are no rules for how to use LTE in the way you are describing, so you set them yourself. Make them work for you, don't box yourself in. Then you set the LTE for refill based on what you think it should be. 

 

Also, any of the suggestions I made above would still work to fix your problem, so if you are still having trouble, try to put into words why they would not work for what you want.

 

- E

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I don't know GURPS at all, outside of a brief player experience in GURPS Wild Cards. Can you explain why a Mana Stone has no REC and a Powerstone has it?

 

You laid out the What, but not the Why. Why does creation only take 1 LTE? Why not 2 or 1 per END created or 1 per 5 END created? There are no rules for how to use LTE in the way you are describing, so you set them yourself. Make them work for you, don't box yourself in. Then you set the LTE for refill based on what you think it should be. 

 

Also, any of the suggestions I made above would still work to fix your problem, so if you are still having trouble, try to put into words why they would not work for what you want.

 

- E

  1. Power stones are more advanced versions of Mana stones. Also I'm thinking of restricting END reservers with REC(POWER STONES) to immobile locations sort of like Nodes in White Wolf's mage.
  2. You are not reading what I'm writing. I've stated this several times. Under 5th ( I don't know 6th costs) 1 AP in in END reserve gives you 10 end. So in a create effect, 10AP gives you 100 END for 1 LTE. I've jacked that up to 10x END  ( for small reserves)and still is cheap by LTE standards.
  3. Even if I used regular END instead of LTE (which defeats the purpose of having END reserve in the setting) the END cost to build one is still  cheaper than to refill one that is now empty using aid or heal.

 

I'm now leaning towards a second create effect to refill with lower LTE costs ( or requires less time) that can only be used to refill existing reserves.

I don't plan to use this set up in all my settings just the gritty urban FH I'm working on.

 

Working title "Wytches & Wiseguys"

Addendum & Metaphysics:  Mages must gather quintessential energy into reservoirs to power their magics. Creating these reservoirs are taxing. As is gather more energy to refill. Though not as taxing as creating new reservoirs.

Very skilled mages can tie these reservoirs into ley lines that will recharge the reservoir.

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Yeah, we are missing in the middle somewhere. When you reference "create effects", could you give a book and page reference? I was looking at 5e pg 238, but I think you are looking at Fantasy Hero 278 maybe? If so, that's fine, I get where you are coming from a little better, but I think my point is made in Chapter 6. You need to set effective campaign guidelines. Those can include modifying the LTE required to do certain things, having AP limits, controlling the availability and power of magic items, defining how magic works in the world, etc. 

 

So for your "Create Item" effect, above, just apply a campaign guideline as follows:

 

Creating Items uses LTE instead of regular END. When creating an item, you must expend 2x the normal END cost in LTE to initially create the item.

Recharging Items uses LTE instead of regular END. When recharging and item, you must expend 1x the normal END cost for the spell in LTE to add power to the item.

 

Is that clearer?

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Yeah, we are missing in the middle somewhere. When you reference "create effects", could you give a book and page reference? I was looking at 5e pg 238, but I think you are looking at Fantasy Hero 278 maybe? If so, that's fine, I get where you are coming from a little better, but I think my point is made in Chapter 6. You need to set effective campaign guidelines. Those can include modifying the LTE required to do certain things, having AP limits, controlling the availability and power of magic items, defining how magic works in the world, etc. 

 

So for your "Create Item" effect, above, just apply a campaign guideline as follows:

 

Creating Items uses LTE instead of regular END. When creating an item, you must expend 2x the normal END cost in LTE to initially create the item.

Recharging Items uses LTE instead of regular END. When recharging and item, you must expend 1x the normal END cost for the spell in LTE to add power to the item.

 

Is that clearer?

5th Edition FH page 277, top of second column.

But Create goes back to 1st edition FH. I think it fell out favor in between editions. I didn't like it at first but it is growing on me. My only concern it is a little complicated for noobs as oppose to the enchant skill in 4th. I may have a few common enchant rituals prewritten to fight that.

 

I tend to not like enchanter classes. I prefer that Items be created by the mages that  have necessary colleges. Such as a pyromancer to create a ring of fire as opposed  to an enchanter who can create an item from any college. Dwarven artificers being the exception. and I don't know why that doesn't bother me. Maybe because traditionally they don't cast spells but lore and legends do show them creating items of power.

 

Create makes it easy to create artificers or enchanter classes.

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  • 4 weeks later...

End Reserves are about right in 5e, for me. A bit too expensive in 6e, I use Killer Shrikes house rules to level it out a bit.

 

In my current magic system for FH, I don't allow personal END Reserves. END reserves exist either as part of an item (plan right now is for most to be 0 REC and expendable) or as part of mystically important area's characteristics. There is also the possibility of END reserves on items that can only be used for particular types of spells (Fire only, Void only, Blood magic only) and have their own variable REC systems (only recovers in a forges fire, only recovers in a crypt, Recovery = Body spilled in blood for 1 turn, etc). This allows augmenting if I find the LTE system to be too much or need to help out lower level mages till they can build up END or REC or the like.

 

I use LTE for all classes, still noodling ideas for exactly how spells use LTE. Current thought of the moment is something shifting the LTE chart up one level so it starts at 1 per minute instead of 5 minutes. I may not even need to do that, since I require a large number of limitations and anything under -4 can be made up simply with extra END cost. I do not generally restrict pushing so melee classes can easily build up LTE as well.

 

In very low magic games i skip END. It evens out for the most part in those games. 

 

As always, YMMV. I have always had more trouble with players trying to min max when it comes to magic than anything else, so the restrictions I use might be too much for a different meta.

 

- E

 

What do you think "cost LTE instead of End" should be worth?

And do you  go 1/10 or 1/5  End cost?

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