Stats for Vanguard?

[Super Neko Majin]

Does anyone have stats for Vanguard or know where they can be found? I wanted to do a Silver Age campaign and I might need to have stats for Vanguard if he shows up. They don't have to be current, I just want to know what he can do.

[Lord Liaden]

The CU-Superman-analogue character called Vanguard has never had any stats published for him. He's just described as a flying brick, and probably the most powerful superhero who ever lived.

 

Darren Watts has been working for a long time on a Silver Age Champions source book, and likely has stats for Vanguard. I would recommend sending him a Private Message asking for a rundown of the character.

[Cantriped]

I would suggest Vanguard be built as a 2000ish-point flying brick.

This post may contain spoilers, you have been warned.

 

In older lore he was slain by Dr. Destroyer in personal combat, so this should be possible, but difficult. Dr Destroyer is built on 3500 points; and can normally deliver 10d6 RKAs. Against Vanguard he likely would have had to use his VPP to build an AVAD or NND Killing Attack specifically designed to bypass Vanguard's defenses. 

In newer lore he was taken out trying to stop a planet killing asteroid if I recall correctly. Either way it was the doctor's fault.

 

He should have a Strength score of about 180 (which is equal in force to One-Punch Man's Normal Punch), and a 90 point multipower of "Strength Tricks"

His "Strength Tricks" should include one Super Serious Punch (a physical HKA or HtH Attack built to fill the entire pool), but mostly it should include various types of Area of Effect, Armor Piercing, Autofire, Double Knockback, Penetrating, and Zero END Independent Advantages for his Strength.

He likely doesn't need them, but I would give him some Martial Maneuvers (especially Martial Dodge, Martial Escape, Flying Dodge and Passing Strike) because he was a highly experienced combatant (unlike One-Punch Man, who just relies on his sheer, overwhelming power).

Rough Cost: 380 points

 

He should have stupidly high defenses:

75% Resistant Physical, Energy, and Mental Damage Reduction

At least 30 points of Resistant, Hardened, Impenetrable Physical, Energy, Power, and Mental Defense.

At least 15 points of every form of Flash Defense (possibly also Resistant, Hardened, and Impenetrable).

Rough Cost: 380 points.

 

His Characteristics should be about twice as high as a normal Bricks:

40 DEX, 60 CON, 20 INT, 20 EGO, 40 PRE, 10 OCV, 10 DCV, 3 OMCV, 6 DMCV, 40 REC, 120 END, 30 BODY, 100 STUN.

Cost: 365 points.

 

He should have enough Life Support to survive exposure to space, and he is likely immune to all diseases and poisons.​

Cost: roughly 30 points.

 

He should have a Speed of 8.

This is the same as Dr Destroyer, and leaves some room for the world's best speedster to be faster than him, Vanguard was never described as being especially fast.

He should have just enough Flight to break the sound barrier at combat speed, which given his speed requires 515m of Flight.

Running 20m, Leaping 60m, Swimming 12m

Cost: 615 points.

 

That brings us up to about 1770 points... and makes him easily capable of rocking the socks off of almost anything in the champions universe without breaking a sweat. Spend the remainder of his points on special senses if you feel he needs them, skills you think he should have, perks relevant to his role in the campaign, etc.

If you need Vanguard to die more easily to the likes of master villains, strip him down to around 1600 points by reducing his attacks and defenses some, and halving his flight speed. This will also bring him closer to being within the range of what Takofanes can raise as a super-zombie using his full arcane might; which would cap out at creating 125 undead built on up to 1225 points or a single built on up to 1830-points if his stat-block from Master Villains were rewritten to better accommodate his history (and you didn't increase the active points of his spells in the process). If I recall, vanguard's corpse was amongst those raised as an undead during the 2009 Blood Moon incident, however I doubt the vanguard zombie was as powerful as vanguard was in life; or nobody would have been able to destroy it, and Takofanes might very well have destroyed the entire city at that time.

[segerge]

Another possible starting point for a Vanguard build is a high-end Superman build like the one that can be found at Michael Surbrook's website.

 

I took a whack at building Vanguard once and it came in around 1,764 points -- consistent with Doctor Destroyer's point-level around 1992.  100 STR, 100-point Brick Tricks VPP, Brick Tricks Martial Art, a breath-weapon multipower, and a multipower with various types of flight in it which also allowed me to give him a flash-step teleportation and a pseudo-speedster "I'll take those..." area-effect TK (useful for group hostage rescues or disarming agents) are the high points.  His defenses in my build weren't quite as robust as @katal3's suggested build (only 50% DR instead of 75%).

[TheQuestionMan]

Only one GM was ever brave enough to trust our group with s combat confrontation with Dr. Destroyer.

 

As expected he clean our clocks with ease, gloated, monologued, and the cursed when the Plot Device malfuntioned.

 

Never seen a Team or individual powerful enough to win.

 

QM

[Cantriped]

Upon reflection; If it came to blows between Vanguard (as I have postulated him) and Doctor Destroyer. I have given Vanguard a clear offensive advantage, but it will basically still come down to dice luck because of Vanguard's Code Against Killing and Doctor Destroyer Superiority and Casual Killer complications.

 

Examples:

Vanguard won't open with the 123d6 Super-Serious Full-Velocity Passing Strike Punch I postulated he has access to. Because that would atomize a normal human, or even most superhumans. Unlike One-Punch Man, Vanguard actually cares about that fact. As a result he'll probably start with a 12d6 punch, which would mangle, but not kill a normal human. Unfortunately it will also do absolutely nothing to Doctor Destroyer; it won't even get through his Force Field Generator's Barrier. Seeing this Vanguard would follow up with a 24d6 punch, which is usually more than enough to splatter a normal human or at least damage most superhumans... But which will only shatter Doctor Destroyer's barrier and do about 8 STUN to him... Finally, Vanguard will use his full 36d6 punch, which will shatter Doctor Destroyer's barrier and do about 36 STUN (but still no BODY) to him.  If he makes his EGO roll against his own delusions of superiority, the Doctor will retreat using Teleportation if he hasn't yet landed a hit against Vanguard.

Just as a hypothetical: If Vanguard did open with his best attack, trusting that Doctor Destroyer is just so badass he'll survive... then the Doctor would be taking about 30 BODY and 104 STUN if Vanguard's attack hit; and after applying the Doctor's damage negation, his barrier, his defenses, and assuming his Tactical Adaptation power was active... Leaving Doctor Destroyer at 0 BODY and -4 STUN (without Tactical Adaptation, he'll be left at -2 BODY and -81 STUN)... alive but bound for Hot Sleep in Stronghold if they can figure out how to get his armor off of him before he wakes up.

 

On the other hand if the Doctor was able to put everything he has into his attack... Which knowing the evil old coot, he would totally do if he knew he was fighting Vanguard. Assuming he is using his Destroyer Beam's Power Mode, plus dedicating his entire VPP improving it's damage, we are looking at a 20d6 RKA Super Destroyer Beam, which will do an average of 10 BODY and 45 STUN after applying Vanguard's postulated defenses. Meaning Doctor Destroyer would need to get three shots in before Vanguard took him down. Since the above scenario has Vanguard wasting his first two attacks because of his Code Against Killing, this is actually a fairly safe bet if they each hit the other with fairly equal accuracy. 

But they won't... In that regard Destroyer has a fairly decent advantage due having combat skill levels vanguard (as postulated lacks) and his Tactical Adaptation. All of which combined would give Doctor Destroyer up to a +12 OCV, or a +4 OCV and +6 DCV advantage over Vanguard's postulated characteristics.

 

On an unrelated note, these simulations indicate to me that Doctor Destroyer also has a fairly good chance of being able to kill Saitama (aka One-Punch Man), who lacks the ability to break the sound barrier with any of his modes of movement, and certainly hasn't learned any martial arts (and therefore lacks the Passing Strike maneuver that allows Vanguard to one-shot destroyer under the circumstances described above). Saitama's tendency to let villains beat on him like a punching bag would prove fatal against the Destroyer.

[Armitage]

I would suggest Vanguard be built as a 2000ish-point flying brick.

This post may contain spoilers, you have been warned.

 

In older lore he was slain by Dr. Destroyer in personal combat, so this should be possible, but difficult. Dr Destroyer is built on 3500 points; and can normally deliver 10d6 RKAs.

 

 

Vanguard died during the Battle of Detroit in 1992, smashing into the asteroid that Destroyer was drawing toward Detroit, not in direct combat.  Doctor Destroyer wasn't as powerful back then.

According to the 5e Book of the Destroyer, he was 1902 points in `92.  He had a 4d6 0 END RKA instead of the straight 10d6 in the modern armor, so call it 6d6 based on Active Points. 

 

In 1984, the Destroyer Beam was able to bloody Vanguard's nose and knock two of his teeth loose.  At that point in the armor's development, the Destroyer Beam was a 14d6 Blast, possibly 20d6.  His armors are listed for 1966 - 1984 and 1984 - 1989, but the picture of their battle shows the 66 - 84 armor.

[Lord Liaden]

Yeah, the 1984 battle with Vanguard was basically a draw; but Destroyer fled in the end, because his armor's energy reserves couldn't keep up with Vanguard's endurance. However, Steve Long's story of that fight, from Book Of The Destroyer, may involve a little dramatic license. Whatever their respective stats might have been at the time, neither antagonist beat the other because Steve didn't want them to. The writer is always the most powerful.

[Cantriped]

I knew that was the case as of 6th edition, but I could have sworn I read somewhere the Vanguard lost his life in direct combat. I can't find that reference now, so I must have misremembered it. Thank you for the correction Armitage. I don't have access to the Book of the Destroyer; I used Doctor Destroyer's stat block from Champions Villains Volumn One - Master Villains.

 

If Doctor Destroyer in '84 only had 2/3rds of the raw power he has now, then the stats I gave for Vanguard should fairly well represent his durability. A "Super Destroyer Beam", using destroyers 6d6 base RKA, and a 100 point VPP to improve it would result in Vanguard taking 3 BODY and 24 STUN (out of his 30 BODY and 100 STUN). Which is only a little bit more than a nose bleed to someone with 40 REC

 

If the original poster feels that Vanguard isn't tough enough as I previously defined him, I would recommend boosting all of his resistant defenses to 40 (up from 30).

[Super Neko Majin]

Thanks.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Yeah, the 1984 battle with Vanguard was basically a draw; but Destroyer fled in the end, because his armor's energy reserves couldn't keep up with Vanguard's endurance. However, Steve Long's story of that fight, from Book Of The Destroyer, may involve a little dramatic license. Whatever their respective stats might have been at the time, neither antagonist beat the other because Steve didn't want them to. The writer is always the most powerful.

 

I read the account of the 1984 as Doctor Destroyer's  recollection of events. Much of the narrative in BoD seems to be in Zerstroiten's point if view, and that point of view is, uhm, highly distorted. 

 

In reality, Vanguard handed Destroyer his head; but, as Destroyer's interactions with Thundrax shows, Destroyer is in the supervillain game in large part for the pleasure of being beaten up by bricks, so call it a lose/win scenario. 

[Cantriped]

I feel obligated to post the following self-correction, while checking the rules for power frameworks in CC/FHC I was frustrated to discover that my "Super Destroyer Beam" (which uses a VPP slot to add to a Multipower Slot) is illegal by RAW for these editions because "A slot in a Framework cannot add to or modify a slot in the same or another Framework." (CC 122/FHC 143). I had missed this clause in all of my previous readings of these rules, and as I usually try very hard to stick to the RAW or cite where I am not, I apologize for my error in this regard... I don't have the mental endurance to re-run my previous calculations, but sufficed to say all calculations which refer to the aforementioned tactic are incorrect barring house rulings.

[bubba smith]

I feel obligated to post the following self-correction, while checking the rules for power frameworks in CC/FHC I was frustrated to discover that my "Super Destroyer Beam" (which uses a VPP slot to add to a Multipower Slot) is illegal by RAW for these editions because "A slot in a Framework cannot add to or modify a slot in the same or another Framework." (CC 122/FHC 143). I had missed this clause in all of my previous readings of these rules, and as I usually try very hard to stick to the RAW or cite where I am not, I apologize for my error in this regard... I don't have the mental endurance to re-run my previous calculations, but sufficed to say all calculations which refer to the aforementioned tactic are incorrect barring house rulings.

at least he is honest about it