Bracing with bows

[bigdamnhero]

Here's a question that came up in last night's Fantasy Hero game.

 

The Heroes were trading arrows at long-range* with a group of pirates. The Heroes wanted to Brace and Set to improve their accuracy, reasonably enough. But bows in FH are built with Concentration (1/2 DCV), which means the characters are already at 1/2 DCV without Bracing. RAW says a character's DCV can only be halved once (6e2 p37, or 5ER p373). So does that mean they cannot get the benefits from Bracing because they're essentially already Braced by default? Or does it mean they can take Brace without any downside because their DCV can only be halved once?

 

At the time, I went ahead and ignored RAW and halved their DCV twice, effectively quartering it, because I felt it fit better narratively. And since they already had "DCV with Bow" written on their character sheets (ie halved), halving it again was simple to do. But it's an interesting question, and I'm curious how other people handle it?

 

Keep in mind this is a heroic game, where the characters do not pay points for equipment. If the character had deliberately built a power with Concentration, and then wanted to take advantage of Bracing, I might feel differently about it.

 

 

* Well, it started at long-range anyway....

[Hyper-Man]

I've never thought about it too much but without looking at the books I would imagine that using a bow requires a type of bracing just to keep the thing steady once the potential energy of the system is engaged by the character pulling the bowstring back.

 

HM

[Vanguard]

The way i took the "DCV can only be halved once" is just that.  If you use two maneuvers that halve the DCV, it's only applied once.

 

As for the whole bow thing, I figured Concentration 1/2 DCV covers what Hyper-man was talking about.

[Surrealone]

My interpretation matches Vanguard's; if you have 3 things going on at once that each result in half DCV ... it's still only applied once.  This also aligns with GM interpretations I've seen of it -- both past and present.

[bigbywolfe]

Per RAW a Character can use Brace with no downside since Bows have Concentration anyway.  However, many campaigns ignore (or remove) Concentration from Bows.  Many fantasy games I've seen also include a Naked Modifier buying off Concentration as a Talent.  A character with such a build would have full DCV firing a Bow normally, but would still be halved DCV if Braced.

[Christopher]

Per RAW a Character can use Brace with no downside since Bows have Concentration anyway.  However, many campaigns ignore (or remove) Concentration from Bows.  Many fantasy games I've seen also include a Naked Modifier buying off Concentration as a Talent.  A character with such a build would have full DCV firing a Bow normally, but would still be halved DCV if Braced.

It is not that they have no downside. They just have that downside already from another source.

They are still at half DCV.

 

But I agree that "double dipping" is allowed by RAW. Not like that half DCV get's less penalizing anytime soon.

 

As a counter question:

If you had a semi-automatic Firearm, could you Brace+Multiple Attack?

Or what about a automatic rifle?

[eepjr24]

There is a tangential reference to this in 5e FH on page 171.

At the GM’s option, an archer can use the Rapid Fire Combat Maneuver with a bow to fire a maximum of two shots. Normal rules for Rapid Fire apply (but remember that a character’s DCV can only be halved once, and it’s already halved due to the bow’s Concentration limitation).

The way I read it you get the benefits of whatever maneuvers you use and only halve DCV one time no matter what.

[bigdamnhero]

It is not that they have no downside. They just have that downside already from another source.

Well to paraphrase: "a downside that doesn't actually limit the character in some way is not a downside."

 

I agree the RAW answer is that the character can Brace with no effective DCV penalty. But the idea that an archer can Brace literally every shot for a +2 vs Range with no effective downside makes even less sense to me than saying they can't Brace at all.

 

However, many campaigns ignore (or remove) Concentration from Bows.  Many fantasy games I've seen also include a Naked Modifier buying off Concentration as a Talent.

Having done a little archery, I do feel like the Concentration Lim makes sense for Heroic games. And yeah, I do have "Full DCV with Bow" available as a Talent. The party's designated archer plans to buy it at his next XP dump. But there are several other PCs and a ton of NPCs who just have basic WF: Bows and it doesn't make sense for all of them to buy it off.

 

As a counter question:

If you had a semi-automatic Firearm, could you Brace+Multiple Attack?

Or what about a automatic rifle?

Well under RAW, the first would be combining two different maneuvers, so no. The second is using a maneuver (Brace) with a Power (Autofire), so sure. And since automatic rifles aren't built with Concentration (and are in fact specifically designed to be fired on the move), Bracing doesn't create problems.

 

Now if the player had bought Autofire with guns as a Naked Advantage and put Concentration on it, then I would probably say they could Brace or Autofire, but not both. But in this case the Concentration is a part of the way bows are built, not something the player chose to do, and it's in effect for literally every shot the player makes.

[Surrealone]

But the idea that an archer can Brace literally every shot for a +2 vs Range with no effective downside makes even less sense to me than saying they can't Brace at all.

That's not an accurate assessment.  Being very technical/literal, the archer can Brace literally every shot for a +2 vs Range with no ADDITIONAL downside.  i.e. The Archer who is concentrating at half DCV has already incurred the effective downside associated with Bracing ... due to half DCV Concentration.

 

So it's not that there's 'no effective downside'.  Rather ... the downside has already been incurred and there's no additional downside.

 

One option you might consider is setting up a house rule where Bracing requires a half Phase (instead of being 0 Phase).  That would add more downside without violating half DCV RAW.  A GM I played under who did this had a (fairly reasonable) issue with Bracing being 0 Phase and, thus, not consuming a character's combat time within the Phased mechanics.  Use of such a house rule would disincentivize steady use of Bracing by players in your game ... and bring it back to appropriate situational use.  Obviously, this would also mean Set and Brace would take 1.5 Phases instead of 1 Phase.

[Christopher R Taylor]

This is a puzzler that has come up a few times in my Fantasy Hero games.  It makes sense that there be a way to steady yourself and increase your accuracy at range with a bow, but the system doesn't really represent that well.  So probably a good alternate would be: "if an attack already reduces the character to 1/2 DCV, then the attack also becomes delayed by one segment" so that its just a bit slower to go off to represent stability and aiming time.

 

Granted that seems like Set but Set just gives a flat +1 OCV.

[akrippler]

You don't get double halved for being prone and being stunned.  

[bigdamnhero]

That's not an accurate assessment.  Being very technical/literal, the archer can Brace literally every shot for a +2 vs Range with no ADDITIONAL downside.  i.e. The Archer who is concentrating at half DCV has already incurred the effective downside associated with Bracing ... due to half DCV Concentration.

I feel like we're arguing over semantics. What you say is technically true, but in practical terms of characters making decisions, if I choose to Brace there is to all practical purposes no downside to that decision.

 

This is a puzzler that has come up a few times in my Fantasy Hero games.  It makes sense that there be a way to steady yourself and increase your accuracy at range with a bow, but the system doesn't really represent that well.  So probably a good alternate would be: "if an attack already reduces the character to 1/2 DCV, then the attack also becomes delayed by one segment" so that its just a bit slower to go off to represent stability and aiming time.

That could work. I think if I'm going to make up my own House Rule for it anyway, I think I'm more likely to just double-halve DCV, or else give "Brace With Bow" a straight penalty rather than 1/2; maybe -2 DCV, which translates to -1 after halving?

 

I also thought about making it a Full Phase action so you can't 1/2 Move and shoot. But I don't like it when characters all just stand still on the battlemat, so as a general rule I try not to do things that discourage movement.

 

You don't get double halved for being prone and being stunned.  

True, but how often do both of those come up at the same time? Sometimes, sure - more often in a game with Knockback I suppose - but hardly all the time. Here, we're talking about a condition that applies every time the character uses their primary weapon. I think the rule "can't halve twice" rule makes sense in most circumstances; I'm just not sure about this one.

[eepjr24]

I also thought about making it a Full Phase action so you can't 1/2 Move and shoot. But I don't like it when characters all just stand still on the battlemat, so as a general rule I try not to do things that discourage movement.

Using RAW they cannot half move and fire anyway, unless they have fast draw or 5 STR greater than minimum and take a -2 OCV penalty. FH6e, 196:

Firing A Bow

Loading a bow — drawing an arrow (from a quiver or other container) and nocking it to the string — requires a Half Phase Action (unless the character succeeds with a Fast Draw (Bows) roll, in which case it becomes a Zero Phase Action). Firing a bow — pulling the string back, aiming quickly, and releasing the arrow — is an Attack Action.

If a character has (and uses) 5 or more points of STR above the STR Minimum of a bow, he may load and fire a bow as an Attack Action (without the need for a Fast Draw roll) if he accepts a -2 OCV penalty for rushing. This allows him to move and then fire his bow, but does not eliminate the half DCV penalty described below. Fast Draw cannot reduce the time required for this.

[Christopher]

The bigger question might be: Should the bow even have cocnentration?

I mean why does it have that limitation to begin with? If you fight ranged, you will Brace (halving your DCV) when it makes sense.

You would (as example) brace if you need those +5 STR for Weapon Minimum purposes, wich is more likely with a larger bow.

 

True, but how often do both of those come up at the same time? Sometimes, sure - more often in a game with Knockback I suppose - but hardly all the time. Here, we're talking about a condition that applies every time the character uses their primary weapon. I think the rule "can't halve twice" rule makes sense in most circumstances; I'm just not sure about this one.

Halving a CV is never a cheap thing. It effectively buffs all attacks against you by your DCV/2. The higher your DCV, the worse you are off. If you want to mitigate it you have to buy your entire CV a second time.

The alternative would be quartering the DCV. At that point you might just as well declare it "autoamtic 0" and be done with it.

 

Another way to look at it:

Since the bow is already concentration, are you not incentivised to always brace? Is that brace perhaps already figured into the Stats of the bow?

 

Brace+Multiple Attack:

 

Well under RAW, the first would be combining two different maneuvers, so no. The second is using a maneuver (Brace) with a Power (Autofire), so sure. And since automatic rifles aren't built with Concentration (and are in fact specifically designed to be fired on the move), Bracing doesn't create problems.

Actually the wording here is wierd. It sounds as if you can combine those two (or brace with any other Combat Maneuver, realy):

"To Brace, a character must take a Zero
Phase Action (not an Attack Action) to steady
himself — in effect, it “tacks on” to another
Combat Maneuver, allowing a character to Brace
and then make an Attack Action all in the same
Phase"

[bigdamnhero]

Using RAW they cannot half move and fire anyway, unless they have fast draw or 5 STR greater than minimum and take a -2 OCV penalty. FH6e, 196:

Good point. So if we made "Brace With Bow" take a Full Phase, that would mean you'd need to have an arrow nocked from a previous Phase. Yeah, not loving that direction.

 

The bigger question might be: Should the bow even have cocnentration?

I mean why does it have that limitation to begin with? If you fight ranged, you will Brace (halving your DCV) when it makes sense

Concentration as a "hardwired" Limitation for bows has been the standard Hero System build going back to FH3. (See 6e2 p206, 5ER p483, etc) It makes sense if you've ever fired a bow - they're not like guns. Most of us are not Legolas/Hawkeye, and can't fire a bow while ducking and dodging and expect to come anywhere near our target. So Concentration is something that is required in order to use the weapon at its base accuracy. (FH & EG mention a GM option where you take -4 OCV in exchange for full DCV.)

 

Brace, by contrast, is something a player can choose to do if they want to improve their accuracy (built as +2 vs Range) at the expense of standing even more still than normal. That part is no different with any other weapon - the only issue here is that the character is already at 1/2 DCV due to the equipment they're using, so by RAW there is no (additional) penalty for doing so.

 

Halving a CV is never a cheap thing. It effectively buffs all attacks against you by your DCV/2. The higher your DCV, the worse you are off. If you want to mitigate it you have to buy your entire CV a second time.

The alternative would be quartering the DCV. At that point you might just as well declare it "autoamtic 0" and be done with it.

Well it's a Heroic game, so OCVs tend to run in the 4-8 range. Which means they're already halved from the bow down to 2-4. So halving it a second time would effectively work out to a -1 or -2. So I'm thinking the easiest way is just to say that "Brace With Bow" is a -1 DCV applied after the halving from Concentration. (I know RAW doesn't roll that way, but the character sheets we use have a table for the character's attack powers/maneuvers with OCV & DCV pre-calculated, so it's easier to subtract 1 from the number they already have rather than un-halve it, subtract 2, and re-halve it. If -2 DCV before halving works better for you, then do that.)

 

I think it's either that or just say "No, you can't Brace with Bows" and leave it at that. But I think I'd rather give my players the option.

 

Actually the wording here is wierd. It sounds as if you can combine those two (or brace with any other Combat Maneuver, realy)

Ah, I think you're right! In that case, I'd probably just let the character combine them, handwave an additional -1 or -2 DCV and call it good enough.

 

Another sidebar: I've always played it that bows are full DCV to load (nocking an arrow isn't that complicated) and 1/2 DCV to shoot; whereas crossbows are 1/2 DCV to load (especially early ones involving hooks, windlasses, etc), and full DCV to fire. But per RAW it looks like both of them are 1/2 DCV for loading and firing. Hmm...not sure if my way makes more sense or not.

[Hugh Neilson]

True, but how often do both of those come up at the same time? Sometimes, sure - more often in a game with Knockback I suppose - but hardly all the time. Here, we're talking about a condition that applies every time the character uses their primary weapon. I think the rule "can't halve twice" rule makes sense in most circumstances; I'm just not sure about this one.

Stunned and Prone combine pretty often, IME, but mostly with Knockdown/Knockback rules as you note.

 

 

Concentration as a "hardwired" Limitation for bows has been the standard Hero System build going back to FH3. (See 6e2 p206, 5ER p483, etc) It makes sense if you've ever fired a bow - they're not like guns. Most of us are not Legolas/Hawkeye, and can't fire a bow while ducking and dodging and expect to come anywhere near our target. So Concentration is something that is required in order to use the weapon at its base accuracy. (FH & EG mention a GM option where you take -4 OCV in exchange for full DCV.)

For those who have actually fired a gun, how realistic is the fellow bobbing and weaving while firing off a few shots one-handed? Most of us are not cinematic action heroes, but that is the kind of character the system promises to deliver. With that in mind, maybe we should assume the Concentration the average bow user would demonstrate is Bracing to gain that +5 STR mod, similar to the two handed stance most people would adopt, if properly trained, with a handgun, but that cinematic PCs are made of sterner stuff.

[Hugh Neilson]

Even if we impose no added DCV penalty to Brace for a Multiple Attack, the Multiple Attack requires a full phase, so that is an extra drawback.

[Beast]

I'd lose the Concentration (1/2 DCV) after seeing this

[Tasha]

I'd lose the Concentration (1/2 DCV) after seeing this

 

Or seeing Mongolian Horse Archers. Those folk go full out on their horses and still fire their bows. I would remove Concentration on Bows, I seems silly to me and based on strange ideas of archery that seem grounded in how Target Archers use their bows.

 

This is Fantasy Hero, aren't we playing so we CAN play Legolas or other fantasy Archers.

[Christopher R Taylor]

For heroic settings, a straight penalty rather than halving actually works well, perhaps better than half.  But yes, in a fantasy setting, would allow someone to study and train to learn to remove the half DCV penalty from bows.  In a real world one, I'd allow someone to train for specific stunts to show on youtube as well.

[bigdamnhero]

For those who have actually fired a gun, how realistic is the fellow bobbing and weaving while firing off a few shots one-handed? .

I used to shoot pretty regularly. And yeah obviously shooting on the move is harder than stationary shooting, but it's actually fairly simple to train someone to shoot with reasonable accuracy while actively moving. Doing the same thing with bows is an order of magnitude harder IMX.

 

With that in mind, maybe we should assume the Concentration the average bow user would demonstrate is Bracing to gain that +5 STR mod...

I think you may be onto something here. Part of the problem is that Hero (like most generic RPGs) treats bows as being reasonably comparable to guns in terms of accuracy & effectiveness. But of course in reality they're not even in the same league, not even close. So one way to look at it would be to say firing a bow Braced makes you roughly as accurate as someone shooting a gun while not Braced, so the system hard-codes the Brace into the weapon for simplicity. So then the answer to "Can I Brace with a bow?" becomes simply "You already are."

 

I'd lose the Concentration (1/2 DCV) after seeing this

Yeah, I saw that video when it made the rounds on Facebook awhile back. Based on the comments from my Serious Archer friends:

• "Stunt shooting" look cool on YouTube, but has little bearing on "real" archery or bowhunting.
• Notice the range on most shots is point blank, practically adjacent in some cases.
• Also notice he's using a very light bow and not even drawing it back fully. In game terms, he's at least 5 over the STR Min, and sacrificing Damage in favor of speed.
• The above notwithstanding, the fact that One Guy On YouTube can do a thing doesn't mean that's the baseline for most people.

 

Or seeing Mongolian Horse Archers. Those folk go full out on their horses and still fire their bows.

Yeah, I've actually never been happy with how Hero models mounted combat in general. But that's probably worth its own thread. I would say shooting arrows effectively at a large formation of troops while relying on the horses speed to keep you safe is not quite the same as firing accurately at an individual target while ducking and dodging.

 

This is Fantasy Hero, aren't we playing so we CAN play Legolas or other fantasy Archers.

Sure, but Legolas obviously put points into the "Full DCV With Bows" Talent, among others.* That shouldn't be the baseline for every mook with WF: Bows.

 

* Edit: Or he simply has enough CSLs to make up the difference.

 

In a real world one, I'd allow someone to train for specific stunts to show on youtube as well.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would say shooting arrows effectively at a large formation of troops while relying on the horses speed to keep you safe is not quite the same as firing accurately at an individual target while ducking and dodging.

 

 

While true, the tales of their accuracy with a bow are legendary, even while mounted.  However, they used small bows, not big long bows, and that's an important distinction.  I'd let someone buy down their speed shooting a self bow, but a long bow requires time and focus to shoot properly.

[Manic Typist]

Do Bracing and Concentration entail doing fundamentally different things that actually merit a halving of DCV for separate, distinct circumstances on oneself?

 

Put it another way: could you tell a difference between a character who was Braced and Concentrating vs. a character who was just Braced, just by looking at them?

 

If Concentration halves my DCV because I can't move as well in response to potential attacks because I've dedicated my energy into an activity that is contradictory to easy, responsive movement, then Bracing wouldn't seem like it adds any new limits on my movement. I can't be "quick on my feet" when Braced and easily adjust my position to avoid an incoming attack.

[Steve]

Per RAW, Concentration gives different penalties than Brace. They're not quite the same. 

 

Brace: x1/2 DCV and can't move 

Concentration: x1/2 DCV, -3 to PER rolls, can't use Dodge and a maximum of 2m movement per phase

 

Maybe it would be better to write up bows with -2 Range Penalty instead? I'm not sure if also increasing the STR minimums by 5 points would be right.

 

At least with Concentration you can still move slowly.

[Beast]

in a heroic game that long pull will lose energy over distance
even w/ a lesser pull he still punched through chain
I'd say baseline heroic and villain Lt's and up is no need to concentrate
mooks and milita need to concentrate

unless you plan on having a bowman/sniper overwatch ,your bowman is going to be right down there in the thick of things
they will be closer to the action so less energy loss w/ a short pull