Long Term Endurance

[Steve]

I was wondering how many have used Long Term Endurance in their campaigns. Do you use it per RAW or modify it in some way? What sort of modifications have you tried?

[eepjr24]

I am using it in an upcoming campaign. Partly as written and partly as a control for the magic system, because it fit well with the feel of the magic systems. You can read about them here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93703-magic-system-comments-welcome/

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93884-divine-magic-system/

 

I have made a few tweaks since then and will probably make a few more as the campaign gets closer (starts next month).

 

- E

[sageaqua]

I use endurance often with long terms builds such as my flesh golems, androids or demi gods.

 

My build makes movement 0 endurance or str 0 endurance and or put 60 points into recovery, str and con which gives you 48 points in recovery and thats enough at a 4 speed to keep the character going for some time.

[Nolgroth]

I have not used it before because it is an extra bookkeeping chore. I want to use it for my more "realistic" games, but the truth is that I tend to play too fast and loose to really dedicate myself to tracking the END costs of every player in order to make sure LTE is applied. 

 

I was considering using it as a consequence (Side Effect) for both caster and recipient of magical healing.

[Christopher]

I was wondering how many have used Long Term Endurance in their campaigns. Do you use it per RAW or modify it in some way? What sort of modifications have you tried?

I toyed with using it for Anime Style Games (especially Bleach and Dragonball), but with the followingmodifications:

A much higher decay rate (based on End use per turn rather then minutes).

Allowing Powers to be limited to use extra LTE on top of Normal Endurance.

Pushing would be automatic, but drain LTE equal to normal endurance used.

 

Have not yet gotten around to actually use it or balance the Rec/LTE loss per turn part.

[bluesguy]

I do when the characters are going to be in a long set of battles.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I use it in heroic games that are gritty or less cinematic.  And I use a version of it for magic to control how much spellcasters can accomplish at a time.

[Steve]

I've been considering using it, but moving the chart breakpoints by one, so (END in Turn)/REC of up to 1/2 equals 0 LTE and the point where it starts using up 1 LTE/5 Minutes would be at 1.

 

One REC per Day without rest might still work (or maybe moving it to one REC per five hours), and perhaps moving the rest rate of REC of LTE to an hour instead of five hours.

 

If I did that, the example character Randall Irons (35 END and 7 REC) could burn his full REC per Turn and collapse from exhaustion after just shy of three hours instead of thirty-five minutes. He would recover back to full END after five hours of rest instead of twenty-five hours.

 

This would only be something that Heroic or greater level characters could do. Normals would still use the rates per RAW, with the Average Person (15 END and 4 REC) falling exhausted after fifteen minutes of REC in END usage per Turn and taking about twenty hours of rest to recover.

 

These abilities could probably be done with Talents that cost points, but my current thinking is to have them be inherent to Heroic and above level characters, setting them apart from ordinary people.

[bigdamnhero]

I have used it in theory in several campaigns, but in practice it's only come up a handful of times. We had one extended running combat in our last campaign where I basically swagged it and assessed everyone 1-2 LTE after each individual combat, with additional modifers if anyone had actually run out of END, been KO'd, etc. Worked reasonably well, didn't have a major effect on game play, but it really seemed to catch the players' attention and helped them get in the spirit of things.

 

Incidentally in that running battle I mentioned, we also used Long Term STUN: getting Stunned costs 1 LTS, getting KO'd costs 2 LTS, recoverable the same way as LTE. Again, didn't have a major effect on gameplay - I think a couple PCs were down 4-5 LTS by the end - but a great roleplaying aid.

 

I used to see LTE pop up more when I used to play more Fantasy Hero, as Encumbrance becomes more of a factor. I'm using LTE in my current FH game, tho it hasn't come up yet (we're only 2 sessions in). Since this campaign is a Road Trip, I'm also planning to asses LTE costs for overland travel: 1 days marching => LTE Costs per Turn from the Encumbrance table. Basically as long as they have horses they'll probably be fine, but if they have to walk while carrying all their gear and supplied, that will get a little tiring after a few days. Longer discussion of this idea scattered through this thread.

[Steve]

The idea of Long Term Stun is an intriguing one. It sounds like it falls somewhere between STUN and BODY as a damage effect. I could see it as a way to show the gradual wearing out of a boxer in a multi-round match.

[Christopher R Taylor]

For a really gritty campaign long-term body would be a reasonable effect as well; you just don't heal back like you used to until you take extra time to rest and get well.  Sure, your body may have healed or been healed back by Kolto Tanks or magic or what all, but it doesn't quite all come back until you take a few weeks or even months to rest up.

[Wardsman]

Delete wrong topic

[Nolgroth]

For a really gritty campaign long-term body would be a reasonable effect as well; you just don't heal back like you used to until you take extra time to rest and get well.  Sure, your body may have healed or been healed back by Kolto Tanks or magic or what all, but it doesn't quite all come back until you take a few weeks or even months to rest up.

 

That is a potentially neat idea. Instead of Body having a long-term recovery, the ability to recover might be impaired until such time as proper rest has been built up. Some sort of drain to Recovery (possibly with Body Only). The Recovery score heals back at 1 REC/Week and does not heal as much Body from other wounds back as quickly. At 0 Recovery, the character simply cannot push themselves as hard. It would not take long to hit 0 END/Stun and the character would have no way to recuperate, short of lying in bed until their natural Recovery can heal back up enough to start a whole systemic recuperation. That would keep powers-based Healing in check, but it would only be really appropriate for more gritty campaigns.

 

I would also offer, as an Optional Rule, that Impairing wounds might not be allowed to be healed by powers. You can get the "Body" back, but you are still limping, favoring that shoulder that was dislocated or whatever until the Impairing wound heals. For Disabling wounds, the best powers can do for you is to transform them into Impairing wounds (remove the implied permanency) and let the natural healing process take over from there. This allows a character to function for long periods without downtime, but they have to deal with a potentially large number of aches, pains, stiffness and downright lack of mobility. Also for gritty campaigns, but perhaps not as gritty as my first paragraph.

[Christopher]

That is a potentially neat idea. Instead of Body having a long-term recovery, the ability to recover might be impaired until such time as proper rest has been built up. Some sort of drain to Recovery (possibly with Body Only). The Recovery score heals back at 1 REC/Week and does not heal as much Body from other wounds back as quickly. At 0 Recovery, the character simply cannot push themselves as hard. It would not take long to hit 0 END/Stun and the character would have no way to recuperate, short of lying in bed until their natural Recovery can heal back up enough to start a whole systemic recuperation. That would keep powers-based Healing in check, but it would only be really appropriate for more gritty campaigns.

A simpler and less book keepy version would be to just say that "Y lost Long Term Body/Body also implies X/Z amount of LTE/LTS loss". Just equate the two, the same way D&D converts Negative Levels to penalties and later potential level loss.

[Steve]

There is also the "1 for 20" rule that Kazei Five used, and it could be modified for this. Perhaps instead of losing 1 BODY for each 20 STUN that gets through defenses, a point of Long Term Stun could be lost instead. It would allow a middle ground between STUN loss and BODY loss. Get in enough fights too quickly and your maximum STUN dwindles, even if you haven't taken any actual BODY damage.

[Tasha]

We used LTE back in the 1st Edition FH days. It was exceedingly annoying to keep track of. Nearly as annoying as keeping track of each of your characters wounds so they could be healed separately. Didn't like the bookkeeping so have never bothered with it since then.

[dabbo]

I do when the characters are reading the 5x5 project review of vimax to be in a long set of battles.

 

Same here.

Edited April 11, 2017 by dabbo

[bigdamnhero]

We used LTE back in the 1st Edition FH days. It was exceedingly annoying to keep track of. Nearly as annoying as keeping track of each of your characters wounds so they could be healed separately. Didn't like the bookkeeping so have never bothered with it since then.

I keep track of LTE the same way I track Drains. Say you have 30 END on your character sheet, and as you expend END you mark off hash marks beneath that, so spending 5 END means 5 ticks. When you get to 30 ticks, you're out of gas. If you spent a point of LTE, instead of making a hash mark you reduce the number, crossing off 30 and writing 29 next to it. You still tick off END expenditures beneath it normally, but you run out at 29 instead of 30. The expenditure tick marks recover normally, but the reduced score only recovers at LTE pace (or as per Drain). Makes it easy to keep them straight.

[Surrealone]

I'm usually game for added complexity, but in games where LTE was experimentally used, all players, including me, felt it was just too much added annoyance to bother.  This is one of those cases where I'm good with a GM assessing a reasonable LTE-like penalty until characters have rested -- just to spare everyone the annoyance.

[Doc Democracy]

I have not used it before because it is an extra bookkeeping chore. I want to use it for my more "realistic" games, but the truth is that I tend to play too fast and loose to really dedicate myself to tracking the END costs of every player in order to make sure LTE is applied. 

 

I was considering using it as a consequence (Side Effect) for both caster and recipient of magical healing.

 

Yeah - it is the book-keeping chore that is the issue.   I haven't looked at it since it was first introduced as the book-keeping put me off. I think that it has to be a purely player thing as it is nice to have some kind of longer term resource management issue that has a side effect on the short term combat one. 

 

I have toyed with making LTE simply recover using REC once per day.  That way I can have a list of LTE used and each day reduce that by REC.  It would be easy to up the limitation values go up from a day to 2 days to 4 days to a week to a fortnight to a month.  I think I would be more likely to charge players LTE for stuff and to build powers that use it that way...

 

(I am hoping that RAW have not changed to just this and I have missed it....)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think you can work out a way to make LTE easier to use, the problem is its always so complicated when people build a system.  Losing 1 END per 10 used to long term (just check off on the sheet) and getting it back at REC/day, but REC/hour if you rest works fine without any complication.  The GM can assign extra LTE loss to tasks, like digging someone out of a collapsed mine shaft or running a race.

 

Having your END and STN drop by 1 for every body you lose (and come back only with the healed body) works well for very gritty campaigns as well.  Even more evil is having all rolls, including to hit, reduced by 1 for every x body you lose.  So you just get worse and worse.

[Christopher]

Yeah - it is the book-keeping chore that is the issue.   I haven't looked at it since it was first introduced as the book-keeping put me off. I think that it has to be a purely player thing as it is nice to have some kind of longer term resource management issue that has a side effect on the short term combat one. 

 

I have toyed with making LTE simply recover using REC once per day.  That way I can have a list of LTE used and each day reduce that by REC.  It would be easy to up the limitation values go up from a day to 2 days to 4 days to a week to a fortnight to a month.  I think I would be more likely to charge players LTE for stuff and to build powers that use it that way...

 

(I am hoping that RAW have not changed to just this and I have missed it....)

"Only use if it adds to game" is literally written into the rules on 6E2 132:

"Tis optional rule involves the use of END over long time periods. It reflects the fact that characters become more and more fatigued if forced to continuously exert END. Te Long Term END (LTE) rules are complicated; you should only use them the GM feels they’ll enhance the adventure. Tis rule is particularly useful to keep wizards from casting spells too frequently"

 

The consistent uses rules are pretty easy:

Figure out END use per Turn (derived primarily from using movement powers, STR needed to lift the load, SPD and actual movement).

Compare with REC/2. Use LTE accordingly to table.

Alternatively just consider it as a Cap on persistent END use so you will not incur LTE loss.

 

The inconsistent ones depend on how much you use.

If you do not at least use twice your REC/Turn, it does not really mater. Below that LTE loss is measured over minutes (5 turns equal 1 minute, not exactly how long a normal fight lasts), so it falls under the consistent use anyway. Jsut ignore uses that small. Maybe the GM can add one LTE loss after longer combats (3 or more turns). But more likely you will already have had LTE loss during those 3 Turns.

 

Only starting with twice your REC will you start loosing LTE on a turn by turn basis. And then it simply depends on how high a multiple of your REC you used. Simply look at the Phase 12 recovery:

Just check how much your endurance changed between this Phase 12 rec (before you make it happen) and the last one (after you made it happened). Divide by Rec, round down. And as said before, ignore anything below 2.

If you got 7 REC, figuring out you can ignore any use less then 14 END is quite easy.

[Singular_Perpous]

we tried a simple form of it but it was met with mixed reviews.

 

every turn of combat (post 12) was 1 LTE and you got 1/2 REC back at the end of the day if you were camping on the road,  Full REC back if resting in an inn and REC +1/2 if you were resting all day.

The book keeping was minimal but we just never got into it.

 

There was another way i looked at by totalling REC and CON and used that as LTE recovery but i never went back to it

[Cantriped]

Yeah - it is the book-keeping chore that is the issue.   I haven't looked at it since it was first introduced as the book-keeping put me off. I think that it has to be a purely player thing as it is nice to have some kind of longer term resource management issue that has a side effect on the short term combat one. 

 

I have toyed with making LTE simply recover using REC once per day.  That way I can have a list of LTE used and each day reduce that by REC.  It would be easy to up the limitation values go up from a day to 2 days to 4 days to a week to a fortnight to a month.  I think I would be more likely to charge players LTE for stuff and to build powers that use it that way...

 

(I am hoping that RAW have not changed to just this and I have missed it....)

 

The RAW for CC/FHC are that you recover your REC in LTE per Day or per "Five Full Hours Of Rest"... But really I doubt anybody can actually rest for 15 or 20 hours straight, so REC per Day or RECx2 per Day sounds reasonable to me.

 

I think everyone can agree that the LTE rules are generally too much book keeping as written. I haven't actually used the LTE rules in a campaign, but were I to do so I would generally ignore the first three levels on the chart (Less than 1/2 REC, 1/2 REC and REC per turn) unless there was encumbrance or overland travel at speed (or both) involved. If you used twice your REC (or more) in END during a Turn, I would have you accrue LTE at the rate given on the table. In addition I would limit LTE Recovery to REC x2 per Day if you slept normally, REC per Day if you didn't... and I suppose if you were in a coma I might give you the full REC per 5 Hours... but at that point you might have bigger problems than your LTE.