No races in Fantasy hero complete?

[Posivated]

Was hoping that Fantasy Hero Complete PDF would have some races in there or some magical items, pretty disappointing. Was interested in running this system but not if I have to buy every single PDF and supplement just to get what I want.

[bluesguy]

You can find Racial, Cultural, and Professional templates at FHC pg 202 thru 211.

 

Magic Items can be found on pg 243 and 244 (not many but a few to start with).

[Ndreare]

What races did you expect to find?

Perhaps we can help make it.

[zslane]

Races, magic items, and spells are specific to a campaign setting. FHC is a genre book, not a setting book. It's not like D&D which comes with a generic fantasy setting "built in". The Hero System is primarily a DIY system, and so you'll have to build your own world.

 

I think there are some campaign settings books written by third parties available, but you won't find anything along these lines coming from Hero Games itself unless you want to use older 5e material like the Valdorian Age book. However, supplements like the 6e Hero System Bestiary and the 6e Grimoire can help jumpstart a campaign with pre-made stuff, though neither of those provide race templates or magic items.

[Doc Democracy]

It is a common problem that one of HERO's strengths is also one of its weaknesses.

 

You can make anything you want but the base system essentially means you NEED to make a lot of decisions,

 

There are a lot of things to help you, and FHC gives you all you need for a few sessions but, if you want an extended campaign, you do have to make some decisions.  Indeed, you have all the tools not just to decide between the options provided but even to tweak and change those to be exactly what you want.

 

If you want a fully realised campaign then buy Tuala Morn or the Tarokian Age or one of the others that are there.  There is nothing "new" in those things, nothing you could not design and build yourself if you have the time and talent.  :-)  No NEED to buy every adventure and supplement, but they do save you time and provide inspiration.

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

Races, magic items, and spells are specific to a campaign setting. FHC is a genre book, not a setting book. It's not like D&D which comes with a generic fantasy setting "built in". The Hero System is primarily a DIY system, and so you'll have to build your own world.

 

I think there are some campaign settings books written by third parties available, but you won't find anything along these lines coming from Hero Games itself unless you want to use older 5e material like the Valdorian Age book. However, supplements like the 6e Hero System Bestiary and the 6e Grimoire can help jumpstart a campaign with pre-made stuff, though neither of those provide race templates or magic items.

And FHC has sample races, magic items, spells and even a sample Castle to boot!

[Wardsman]

Races, magic items, and spells are specific to a campaign setting. FHC is a genre book, not a setting book. It's not like D&D which comes with a generic fantasy setting "built in". The Hero System is primarily a DIY system, and so you'll have to build your own world.

 

I think there are some campaign settings books written by third parties available, but you won't find anything along these lines coming from Hero Games itself unless you want to use older 5e material like the Valdorian Age book. However, supplements like the 6e Hero System Bestiary and the 6e Grimoire can help jumpstart a campaign with pre-made stuff, though neither of those provide race templates or magic items.

 

I haven't touched 6th, though I've read good things about  it, but situation is similar to earlier editions.

And I suspect FHC goes into great detail as Ninjabear points out.

I find in the editions I have  the examples  given are enough to get you started on a generic fantasy campaign.

Just change lines in the  packages to customize. 

 

Where hero shines is is when you take to build something different.

However if you nose around the store section of the site there are settings that  are post 6 th edition . And converting 5th should not be an issue.

 

Some of us here have been playing since Champions 1 & 2. Before FH existed and have been converting D&D , MERP, RQ, and Harn for years.

So throw out what you need on the board. We may argue on the best way to do it(see some of my threads). But we all have ideas.

 

Here is a freebie.

Dwarven Magic resistance: Arcane Defense based on Con

[Wardsman]

You can find Racial, Cultural, and Professional templates at FHC pg 202 thru 211.

 

Magic Items can be found on pg 243 and 244 (not many but a few to start with).

It was hidden under a high level cloak effect.

[zslane]

I find in the editions I have  the examples given are enough to get you started on a generic fantasy campaign.

True. But who really likes a "generic fantasy campaign" anymore? As a hobby/industry, we've moved way past the early years of AD&D 1st ed...

 

One of the criticisms that the Hero System has had to cope with ever since 4th edition was that it is too generic and bland. But that's because the critics were coming at it from the perspective that a core RPG book should provide a very specific default campaign world to play in. They don't really want (or necessarily see the value of) separating system from setting, and expect them to be intertwined and inseparable. That approach reduces the amount of work GMs have to do to get started, but it isn't the Hero System Way.

 

To make the Hero System fun and interesting, you have to either build a fun and interesting campaign world yourself, or buy one pre-made for you and use/adapt as necessary. The core rulebooks and genre books aren't meant to be substitutes for a good campaign setting, nor would I expect the RPG experience that comes out of them to be very satisfying (or acceptible fo players today).

[Wardsman]

True. But who really likes a "generic fantasy campaign" anymore? As a hobby/industry, we've moved way past the early years of AD&D 1st ed...

 

One of the criticisms that the Hero System has had to cope with ever since 4th edition was that it is too generic and bland. But that's because the critics were coming at it from the perspective that a core RPG book should provide a very specific default campaign world to play in. They don't really want (or necessarily see the value of) separating system from setting, and expect them to be intertwined and inseparable. That approach reduces the amount of work GMs have to do to get started, but it isn't the Hero System Way.

 

To make the Hero System fun and interesting, you have to either build a fun and interesting campaign world yourself, or buy one pre-made for you and use/adapt as necessary. The core rulebooks and genre books aren't meant to be substitutes for a good campaign setting, nor would I expect the RPG experience that comes out of them to be very satisfying (or acceptible fo players today).

True.

But by fiddling with example packages you can get something going fairly quick.

It is settings without Elves and Dwarves you need to work on.

[zslane]

True.

But by fiddling with example packages you can get something going fairly quick.

It is settings without Elves and Dwarves you need to work on.

I guess I feel that it is the settings "without Elves and Dwarves", i.e., the ones that demand substantial work from the GM, which are the (only) ones worth playing in. Anything a prospective GM can get going "fairly quick" from a genre guide book would likely be painfully bland and lacking in texture or depth. Is that really what we're going for here?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Toolkit systems are generic and bland. I've got Fantasy Hero Complete, and where do I go from here? Oh, sure, the product can explain different fantasy settings, but unless it makes one official, they're not, you know, real. They're not-real. They're fantasy fantasy. And also I have to do more work.

Games that combine generic rules with full-fleshed genre settings for every imaginable kind of gaming are dumb and stupid and they suck. 

Toolkit systems that grow organically from their setting and which have long-lasting and loyal support just suck and no-one should ever care about them. In fact, even the author should just go off and redot things.

"Generic," that is, D&D-type systems are boring. Look, elves! I want a system that says, "No elves," because I only liked elves before they were cool.

Systems with lots of idiosyncratic races and stuff are stupid and weird and probably secretly boring, and have dumb names for stuff. I think maybe their inventors aren't real PhDs and get their programmes decertified.

Systems that take off from incredibly vivid reimaginings of common settings with a perfect balance of idiosyncrancy and popular culture are --well, who cares about them? They may or may not be boring, but I wouldn't know, because I choose not to play them. Because reasons. Besides, they'll probably just run out of steam halfway through, and that's a totally excellent reason to never bother with them in the ffirst place.

All science fiction games/settings are lame. The only thing worse than lame science fiction settings is people who try to tell you that they're not lame. You know it's true.

The only thing lamer than science fiction settings are revised versions of those settings that aim to get rid of the restrictive, lame stuff and open them up. 

No-one cares about modern settings. Not even if you get the best ruleswriters in the business to design a million-dollar product around the best-known license in modern adventure. Lame!

Superhero roleplaying is stupid and childish, not like killing dragons that live in dungeons at all.

(Relevant Onion article.)

 

In my long years in the hobby, I have seen a deliberately generic D&D setting turn into a sweeping comic epic. I have seen men who I will insist to my grave were second-rate hacks take the simple question, "What are those evil, dark, underground elves all about?" and turn the answer into one of the most successful products in the history of the industry. I've seen the most straitjacketing, imagination-numbing mechanisms of the first and dumbest RPG turned into the foundation of the modern computer gaming industry.  I have seen just one of those millions of alternative RPG settings become popular in its own right, but because it allowed gamers to play vampires, it overtook D&D itself. (Largely because Pathfinder turned into the new D&D, but whatever. Dumb old Wizards of the Coast, thinking that their audience wanted an enjoyable and well-crafted development of the gaming system.) I've also seen follow-on popular culture crazes fail to catch that lightning in the bottle. 

 

I don't think there's any easily-discerned lessons here, except that "generic" is a perfectly good place to start, and that there's plenty to be mined out of elves and dwarves and such, and, no, I don't mean that making them evil-n-stuff. I can critique Tolkien perfectly well on my own, thank you very much, R. Scott Bakker. Combining generic settings with universal rules looks like a great idea, but it has failed enough times that even the most hardened gaming entrepeneur might want to rethink things. As it happens, I think the problem is that the most popular trends in RPG-dom have tended to begin by munchkinning the system, and for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on, universal toolkit systems are down on munchkinning rules expansions.  Steve tiptoed up to the line with the Ulronai, but didn't quite step over it --that might have been the mistake? I'm not sure.

[zslane]

Well, I do think there is something of an easily-learned lesson in all that. Which is that nothing good comes without effort on the part of someone. That someone is usually a game designer/writer and/or the GM (who often functions as game designer/writer for his or her campaign). Nothing of merit comes without that effort in my experience.

 

So yes, generic suggestions from a genre book or core rulebook are a reasonable starting point, but that is all they are. If that is all they largely remain, then chances are the game that results from them will be bland and forgettable unless you have a brilliant cast of improvisational actors in your gaming group. The Hero System really only rewards those who put in the work/time to make the game a great experience.

[Wardsman]

Well, I do think there is something of an easily-learned lesson in all that. Which is that nothing good comes without effort on the part of someone. That someone is usually a game designer/writer and/or the GM (who often functions as game designer/writer for his or her campaign). Nothing of merit comes without that effort in my experience.

 

So yes, generic suggestions from a genre book or core rulebook are a reasonable starting point, but that is all they are. If that is all they largely remain, then chances are the game that results from them will be bland and forgettable unless you have a brilliant cast of improvisational actors in your gaming group. The Hero System really only rewards those who put in the work/time to make the game a great experience.

 

To be fair some people like recognizable tropes. If I were introducing noobs who have only played D&D, That is where I would start. But I'd slowly add some twists and kinks as it progressed.

[Spence]

A lot of good info here, but one statement I have to disagree with. 

 

But who really likes a "generic fantasy campaign" anymore? As a hobby/industry, we've moved way past the early years of AD&D 1st ed...

 

Both untrue and self-deceptive in my opinion.  All, yes all, of the "big" games. Defined as games that are carried by virtually every FLGS you visit and have not one or two but multiple in play games in those same stores are being played in those 'generic fantasy campaigns'.  D&D, Pathfinder and 13th Age are all basically the same place with a few cosmetic differences.  What are different is their pre-built campaigns, which are also selling extensively.  Not because they are better, but because they recognize the reality that most gamers have jobs and simply do not have the time to create one whole-cloth.   

Yes, custom worlds are "better" than something pre-packaged.  And yet those pre-packaged campaigns fly off the shelves.  And continue long after new one’s release.  Curse of Strahd for D&D5th is everywhere.  The old Rune Lords for Pathfinder is still ordered. 

 

No, the hobby and industry has not moved away from it at all.    In fact, the industry has upped the ante and the pre-packaged 'generic campaign' has grown to encompass not only fantasy, but other genres as well. 

 

All of this should not be taken as criticism of anyone here or of Hero as a system.    Hero is, also in my opinion one of if not the best RPG systems out there.    It is also, unfortunately, one of if not the most misunderstood systems out there. 

 

The vast majority of the rules systems in print have the rules as published and they have governing rules/notes that define how those rules are written and balanced.  I refer to those as the systems meta-rules.  The meta-rules allow the system writers to author additional material that will be balanced within their system.  We see WotC adding D&D supplements.  Paizo does the same, Pelgrane does to as well as FFG for their Star Wars game. And yet no one publishes their hidden meta-rules. And no, the SRD is not the meta-system.  It is the bare bones list of what they already released.

 

Hero on the other hand, starts off by dropping their entire meta-system in your lap.   Where D&D has already defined the builds for race and occupation that include in game abilities (race/class/level) and have prefabricated a large number of material goods (weapons, armor, devices) and the arcane (magic, spells, items) that fit the rule/gameplay of those race/occupations.  Hero instead says “here are the meta-rule, get building”.

 

Instead of reaching that point in a campaign/setting where the play style of you group diverges from the way the rules and campaign world are built requiring you as the GM to make stuff up and insert guestimated fixes based on gut feelings.  With Hero you can superficially adjust the builds using the actual meta-rules themselves. 

 

The quoted statement above should really say

 

“But who among Hero players really likes a "generic fantasy campaign" anymore? As for our small slice of the hobby/industry, we as Hero players have moved way past the early years of RPG gaming….”.   

 

Though I may balk at referring to Hero System as being inherently superior over another RPG.  Rather I would call it an extremely well designed alternative for those gamers that have enough time on their hands to truly create a unique setting. 

While many companies that have chosen to not create prebuilt campaigns adventures continue to beat the drum that they are not profitable.  The big sticks of the industry seem to provide beautifully packaged and very well written campaigns and adventures regularly, not with the beat of a single drum.  But the accompaniment of the entire orchestra.  The key, in my personal opinion, is that they include enough detail to play in.  But keep well back from too much information.    As an example, D&D 5^th’s Forgotten Realms.  The Core rule books inform you that the game takes place there but gives virtually no tangible information about it.   The follow on Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide adds a lot of fluff and just enough game data to allow a player to feel they have more options without overloading a GM with new minutia.  In other words, they have added just enough value to add to the game while still avoiding information overload.  

 

In my area the number of regular Pathfinder games is on the decline, while D&D and 13^th Age is on an upsurge.  My personal belief is it is due to information overload.   Pathfinder has become so bloated with options and supplements that GM’s are just being crushed under the weight.  The only PF games I see these days are “core book only” games.  

What does this have to do with Hero?  Well, Hero is the only system currently on the market that really does allow you to build a full world and campaign utilizing a single core book that contains a complete system.  All of Hero’s supplementary books really do not add any rules.  They simply express methods or interpreting the existing rules in new directions or they contain predesigned “common things” such as weapons, devices and so on. 

 

As for designing a world or races for Fantasy Hero. 

Why do you need them all at the beginning? 

Pick the initial ones needed for the starting game you wish to run.  If you do not want to do the heavy lifting there are several 6^th Ed books that already have.    Fantasy Hero 6th has all kinds of occupational templates.  The Bestiary and Equipment guides are great starts and since everything is stat’ed out using the core rules, you can easily tweak them in to your personal style of play. And to be fair you will have to decide on their cost in money, since currency is world specific. 

 

In the end, if want a concise system that will allow you to create/build a world/campaign from scratch exactly like you want without the requirement to buy additional books/modules/supplements.  Hero is the only game in town.  Even GURPs requires you to purchase add-ons to meet specific needs.   Hero does have them, but none of the are actually required….

[Chris Goodwin]

The most frequently asked question on the Fantasy Hero forum is, how do I do <thing from D&D> in Hero?

[Tasha]

I will point out that a very non standard fantasy world made very good money on KS a few years ago. Numenera did very well with it's customers and still sells tons of supplements. Not a Dwarf or Elf in the whole setting. It's more Science so advanced it feels like magic, but it's still fantasy. Their Second Game "The Strange" also has many fantasy trappings.

 

For Savage Worlds, Accursed made a decent amount of cash in it's KS and is a dark fantasy. Also Rippers Resurrected which is steampunk with fantasy elements also did very well with it's kickstarter.

So there is still a lot of demand for non standard fantasy.

[Tasha]

IMHO the "Bland" feel of Fantasy Hero is more the fault of the players and GM than the system. I find that Champions players that switch to FH tend to refer to their abilities by the Power name. ie instead of saying "My Firebolt spell' they will ruin their experience by saying "I used my 6d6 Blast" or I use my Defensive strike instead of saying "my Retreating Strike" etc. Hero is really no more bland than D&D (where every damage spell is an xD6 attack). The difference is now players and GM's see the abilities.

[zslane]

I would go one small step further and observe that "6d6 Blast" is merely the mechanic, while "Firebolt spell" is the campaign element. And an awfully generic one at that since it suggests nothing about the world it inhabits. How about "Haelstrom's Maelstrom" or "Celestial Flames of Ulnak"? And while we're at it, let's figure out who Haelstrom and Ulnak are and how they came to have spells named after them.

 

It isn't the presence of Elves or Dwarves that makes a campaign setting generic, it is the lack of any atmosphere, texture, or sense of history which would make it feel unique and real. I won't dispute the claim that generic fantasy is a popular "genre" to play these days, but I will confess I find it rather mystifying.

[Tasha]

It isn't the presence of Elves or Dwarves that makes a campaign setting generic, it is the lack of any atmosphere, texture, or sense of history which would make it feel unique and real. I won't dispute the claim that generic fantasy is a popular "genre" to play these days, but I will confess I find it rather mystifying.

It's popular because it gives players something they can latch onto without lots of work. It also makes the GM's job easier because people know what a Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling etc are. They know what to expect from them etc. Which makes it more fun when you have Characters that break the mold for those races.

[Wardsman]

IMHO the "Bland" feel of Fantasy Hero is more the fault of the players and GM than the system. I find that Champions players that switch to FH tend to refer to their abilities by the Power name. ie instead of saying "My Firebolt spell' they will ruin their experience by saying "I used my 6d6 Blast" or I use my Defensive strike instead of saying "my Retreating Strike" etc. Hero is really no more bland than D&D (where every damage spell is an xD6 attack). The difference is now players and GM's see the abilities.

When most of Grognards came up we customized D&D and had all kinds weird stuff. Sixguns & Sorcery anybody? Todays crowd wants to be spoonfed. 

Some of it is people being older and not having the time. But par of it is a change in generations. There are studies showing the younger crowds are not tinkerers o any level.

[Ndreare]

If a player can not look at a picture or two and read a single page to get the feeling for the setting.

Then it is marketing decision. The games you mention can all be communicated very quickly and easily.

 

IMHO

A lot of Fantasy Hero skips the setting it buries it in pages of text a new player is not motivated to find. The effort to make it generic at the cost accessable feelings.

 

Even D&D is 90% marketed by art, a player sees the art and says I want to be that. The mechanics of most versions of D&D do not support the books that are popular, but they still sell because of the art.

 

Meanwhile this very thread was started by someone who has trouble finding the basic fantasy tropes of races and classes. They were in the book, but nothing brought his attention to them.

 

Hero is a working GMs game. To get it right the GM has to build his world and market it to his players.

[Wardsman]

If a player can not look at a picture or two and read a single page to get the feeling for the setting.

Then it is marketing decision. The games you mention can all be communicated very quickly and easily.

 

IMHO

A lot of Fantasy Hero skips the setting it buries it in pages of text a new player is not motivated to find. The effort to make it generic at the cost accessable feelings.

 

Even D&D is 90% marketed by art, a player sees the art and says I want to be that. The mechanics of most versions of D&D do not support the books that are popular, but they still sell because of the art.

 

Meanwhile this very thread was started by someone who has trouble finding the basic fantasy tropes of races and classes. They were in the book, but nothing brought his attention to them.

 

Hero is a working GMs game. To get it right the GM has to build his world and market it to his players.

The question is OP the GM or Player.

But Hero does take fundamentally different path to get there.

 

Now I can't comment on FHC or how it is setup. Nor how it differs from FH 6th edition

But one thing 5th did do was put all the package deals up front. It gave you a taste of what it could do.

 

You are right,. Artwork is a big deal. Not to me per se but to others. 

I will say I have a negative oppinion of Exalted because of the anime style artwork. I won't crack there books for that reason.

But good art costs and it is always subjective. 

 

But can we have a citation again of where to find the races or how to build them in FHC?

[Ndreare]

Great example with Exalted, my wife gets real buggy about sexualized art and seeing the covers made it clear she did not want any nipple or cheesecake art where our daughter could see it.

So art not only can get your audience, it can turn them away as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

I will point out that a very non standard fantasy world made very good money on KS a few years ago. Numenera did very well with it's customers and still sells tons of supplements. Not a Dwarf or Elf in the whole setting. It's more Science so advanced it feels like magic, but it's still fantasy. Their Second Game "The Strange" also has many fantasy trappings.

 

For Savage Worlds, Accursed made a decent amount of cash in it's KS and is a dark fantasy. Also Rippers Resurrected which is steampunk with fantasy elements also did very well with it's kickstarter.

 

So there is still a lot of demand for non standard fantasy.

Not enough, apparently, to mass-market it through conventional channels, or even make it worth the risk to produce it and then sell it. Meanwhile, how many supplements a month are released for generic fantasy games?

 

When most of Grognards came up we customized D&D and had all kinds weird stuff. Sixguns & Sorcery anybody? Todays crowd wants to be spoonfed. 

 

Some of it is people being older and not having the time. But par of it is a change in generations. There are studies showing the younger crowds are not tinkerers o any level.

Some of it is the alternative of playing a videogame where all the work is already done for you and the graphics are prettier. The change in generations does not come without a source. I had a presenter some years ago ask why it was that Baby Boomers were viewed as more independent, and less loyal, than their predecessors?

 

Could their independence have anything to do with their being the first generation raised in two-income households, and largely not coming home to a stay-at-home parent? Perhaps watching your parents work for a company for decades, only to be laid off without a thought when times get tough does not stimulate loyalty.

 

Millenials?

Pay attention to the line about trophies.