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Material component:Expendable Focus vs Charges that do no recover


Wardsman

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Charges that do not recover DO NOT RECOVER.  If you're staying strictly within the rules, the only way to get more use out of a power bought "Charges do not recover" that has had all of its charges spent is to spend character points to improve the number of charges available to the power, or to buy off the "Does not Recover" entirely.

 

You could, I suppose, lock up experience points in loot you give the spell caster that can be spent only to reduce the charges limitation, but that seems awkward to me.

 

 

Expendable Foci, on the other hand, seems to be specifically made for this, so it is probably what should be used.

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What are the pros and cons of each to simulate materials that have to be replenished for magic?

If you want to simulate materials that have to be replenished for magic, you might want to use Expendable Focus.

 

If you want to simulate materials that are absolutely irreplaceable and can never be replenished then you want Charges do not Recover. AND a Focus Limitation of some sort, since materials can be taken away,

 

Now, for materials that have to be replenished, you could also consider Charges Recover under Unusual Circumstance I think it's called.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary repeats a point already made - if a Power has Charges Do Not Recover, the only way to get more use out of it is to pump more XP points into it.

 

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If you want to simulate materials that have to be replenished for magic, you might want to use Expendable Focus.

 

If you want to simulate materials that are absolutely irreplaceable and can never be replenished then you want Charges do not Recover. AND a Focus Limitation of some sort, since materials can be taken away,

 

Now, for materials that have to be replenished, you could also consider Charges Recover under Unusual Circumstance I think it's called.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary repeats a point already made - if a Power has Charges Do Not Recover, the only way to get more use out of it is to pump more XP points into it.

 

How do see the differences between using focus and charges?

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How do see the differences between using focus and charges?

If you don't use the Focus Limitation then somehow they materials can't be, or just aren't, ever taken away. I see that as hard to justify, so there's probably a Focus Limitation.

 

Might be possible to justify using both; still thinking about it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is in two minds on the matter

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Using both is easily justifiable, I'd think.

 

Say you have a lightning bolt spell.  It requires the caster to have a wand carved from the wood of a lightning struck tree in order to cast it.  Such a wand isn't a trivial expense, as it requires not only a specific special subcategory of wood, but also some intricate specialist carving.   Said wand holds some residual magical energy from the lightning strike, enough to power a single shot of the lightning bolt spell.   When the spell is cast, and the residual energy is released, it consumes the wand.   Larry the Lightning Wizard keeps eight wands prepared and stored in a special, easy access holster he has had made to hold them. 

 

Larry's Lightning Lance:

2D6 RKA (E)

Armor Piercing (+1/2)

Gestures (-1/4)

Incantations (-1/4)

Skill Roll (-1/2)

Expendable Obvious Accessible Focus (-1 1/4)

8 Charges (-1/2)

 

(30 Base Points : 45 Active Points -2.75 total limitations : real cost 12 points)

 

 

If Larry didn't take expendable on his focus, but still took charges, the explanation could be that while the Lightning Struck Wood Wand isn't consumed in the casting, it does only accumulate natural magical energy at such a rate that it can only be used to power up to 8 shots of Larry's Lightning Lance per day.

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Potions and spell scrolls generally fill the bill for both expendable focus and charges that never recover.

 

Expendable without charges can be things like a spell that you can cast as often as you like, but it needs a specially prepared crystal that shatters each time you cast it.

 

I seldom use charges that don't recover without a focus, but it can simulate things like Rincewind having one of the 8 spells from the Octavo stuck in his head. Or a mage performs a complex ritual that allows him to do some amazing feat of magic..... once.

 

- E

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If you don't use the Focus Limitation then somehow they materials can't be, or just aren't, ever taken away. I see that as hard to justify, so there's probably a Focus Limitation.

 

Might be possible to justify using both; still thinking about it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is in two minds on the matter

Restrainable and Material Manifesation implement the Accessible and Destructible parts of a Focus Limitation respectively.

But the Restrainable = Accessible example is not as clear here. It deals more with stuff like "Wings getting grabbed/tied" then "Material Component being stolen". So plain focus might still be better.

 

I seldom use charges that don't recover without a focus, but it can simulate things like Rincewind having one of the 8 spells from the Octavo stuck in his head. Or a mage performs a complex ritual that allows him to do some amazing feat of magic..... once.

 

- E

Those sounds more like stuff you should not write up in the first place. My usual benchmark for "What not to spend points on" rule is how often it is likely to come up in a Campaign. 1-2 would still be likely free for me. And that power literally can not be used more then once.

Abilities that are so powerfull their use is limited like that should not be given to the players unless planned for in the Campaign - wich usually means it is needed to be used in the Campaign and thus not realy under player control to begin with.

 

@OP Question:

Personally I think "Charges, do not Recover" never belongs onto a sheet in the first place for above reasons. Once you have used all uses you effectively have a worthless point dump on your sheet. That is only likely to force the player to make a new sheet/character without repeating that mistake.

And if it is not written onto the sheet, that it does not recover does not mater either. Unless you got some Formula to derive money cost from Active Points and Real Cost of it's power.

 

If this is for a villain, no writeup is needed. The Evil Mage housing in that spooky castle over there needs no base for the castle, follower for all the guards/skelettons, follower for the riddle demon guarding the inner sanctum and the like.

Those are there because they are needed for the adventure to be challenging, not becaue the master bought them. Once he was driven out - even if he survived - he will not come back there. Those guards/the demon will not appear elsewhere working for this character. If they did, followers/base would be in order. But for heroic levels you can usually ignore those perks anyway.

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@OP Question:

Personally I think "Charges, do not Recover" never belongs onto a sheet in the first place for above reasons. Once you have used all uses you effectively have a worthless point dump on your sheet. That is only likely to force the player to make a new sheet/character without repeating that mistake.

And if it is not written onto the sheet, that it does not recover does not mater either. Unless you got some Formula to derive money cost from Active Points and Real Cost of it's power.

So you do not allow players to create potions or scrolls? Or you just don't write up the powers? I guess the latter might work for some, but I do use a formulae for converting AP and RP to money, so I'd need to write them up at least once anyway. To each their own, I suppose.

 

- E

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By the book, a character can only make a magic item by spending character points on them.   Using that method for expendable items seems pretty harsh, even with the -2 Independent limitation.

 

My method was to build the power as usual, but to add Trigger advantage, combined with Usable by Others advantage if the person triggering the power could direct where it went as opposed to simply being hit by the triggered power themselves.   The maker of the scroll or potion paid the END cost when the trigger was set, and I controlled how many of these they could have laying about by requiring expensive, rare or otherwise difficult ingredients, and by requiring a long casting time of at least hours, and possibly days per trigger set.

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By the book, a character can only make a magic item by spending character points on them.   Using that method for expendable items seems pretty harsh, even with the -2 Independent limitation.

 

My method was to build the power as usual, but to add Trigger advantage, combined with Usable by Others advantage if the person triggering the power could direct where it went as opposed to simply being hit by the triggered power themselves.   The maker of the scroll or potion paid the END cost when the trigger was set, and I controlled how many of these they could have laying about by requiring expensive, rare or otherwise difficult ingredients, and by requiring a long casting time of at least hours, and possibly days per trigger set.

 Which book? I'm told 6th got rid of Independent.

There are few other ways to do it as well. I lean towards the create effect that normally doesn't require points for the item, only for the Create spell.

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By the book, a character can only make a magic item by spending character points on them.   Using that method for expendable items seems pretty harsh, even with the -2 Independent limitation.

 

My method was to build the power as usual, but to add Trigger advantage, combined with Usable by Others advantage if the person triggering the power could direct where it went as opposed to simply being hit by the triggered power themselves.   The maker of the scroll or potion paid the END cost when the trigger was set, and I controlled how many of these they could have laying about by requiring expensive, rare or otherwise difficult ingredients, and by requiring a long casting time of at least hours, and possibly days per trigger set.

I started this thread on the differing enchantment mechanics. This is hero. there is more than one way to skin a cat.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93375-5th-ed-what-is-your-enchantment-mechanic/

 

This is my current favorite as I discussed it.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93375-5th-ed-what-is-your-enchantment-mechanic/?p=2527673

 

It is now known as alternate enchantment rules, at least in 5th edition. I'm told it is in 6th as well.

I refer to by its original name , the Create effect which what it was known as 1st-4th edition

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It is now known as alternate enchantment rules, at least in 5th edition. I'm told it is in 6th as well.

I refer to by its original name , the Create effect which what it was known as 1st-4th edition

I dug out my 4th edition FH and BBB and could not find any reference in either of them to "Create Effect". So I think it goes back older than that. My champs 1-3 are buried in boxes somewhere or I check those for you as well.

 

- E

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I dug out my 4th edition FH and BBB and could not find any reference in either of them to "Create Effect". So I think it goes back older than that. My champs 1-3 are buried in boxes somewhere or I check those for you as well.

 

-E

BBB?

4th leaned toward a skill like power which I use to prefer. 

Page 36 I think on first edition. strangely enough that version did use create and independent together. But later versions did not.

Neither did 5th. It specifically states not to use independent and not pay points for the item. Just the spell

But 5th does tie it to what it calls "alternate enchantment" rules to differing modifiers from the usable by others section of 5th edition.

 

Like I said elsewhere I could see it being used in Superheroes and SF as nanotech seeds and other things.

 

There is one open question which active points do you base the time on? The original effect or the base create effect?

I'm leaning on the Base create effect (real cost of original) which incentives the players to take limitation on the original or item effect.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have managed this question by going a little outside of the existing rules and creating my own disadvantage. Mind you, this is a custom house rule definition, so your mileage may vary. However, it is at least defined by a common Hero System disadvantage: Limited.

 

 

"Materials:

Limited Power, Uncommon: -1/4

 

Materials is a limitation defining a spell that requires a physical item to be consumed when cast. Unlike charges, which establish an absolute limit on how often a power may be used in a given period of time, materials are easily recovered and do not limit the caster to a number of castings as long as the materials are present. Normally, there is no need to keep track of the materials while the caster remains close to a source. If a caster maintaining a constant spell loses access to his materials, the spell is immediately interrupted.

 

Materials have an inherent "obvious" disadvantage: it is clear to anyone observing that the caster is using these materials to maintain or fuel her spells. Materials are common in nature: sand, bugs, incense, water, twigs, braided long grass, special colored stones, bound strings, etc. They are easily accessible (normal combat maneuvers to grab, disarm, etc. may remove them). However, for all their vulnerability, they are also extremely easy to replace, and pose relatively little delay if they are lost.

 

Preparing new materials in battle from your own storage (in next pocket, in another pouch, from the backpack, etc.) is a 1/2 move action.

 

Examples:

 

Lored, the Druid, uses acorns to cast his “Nature’s Wrath” spell. Whenever he wishes to smite a disrespectful interloper, he hurls a charged acorn at his target, which explodes on impact. While he casts the spell, the acorn glows brightly green, is hot to the touch, and hums audibly. If he was to lose his bag of acorns, he would not be able to cast the spell, but it would be easy to obtain replacement acorns… as long as he was close to a forest.

 

Kayl, the Water Master, uses a small water pouch to feed his powerful water spells. He shapes and guides his water to form a wall to protect his comrades from the archers on the tower, while they attempt to escape by climbing the keep’s outer walls. The water in the pouch glows and floats around him while the spell is active. As long as he has the water pouch on him, he can maintain the spell. However, a clever magician, knowledgeable in Water magic, spots Kayl’s pouch, and correctly deduces that he is using it to power his spell. With a well placed fire bolt, he burns the pouch to a cinder and all the water spills out. Kayl’s water wall collapses. Fortunately, his friends have already reached the other side, and are out of sight. Kayl knows all he has to do is get a new pouch and fill it with water to be back in the magic business again. But first, he must run away."

 

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I have managed this question by going a little outside of the existing rules and creating my own disadvantage. Mind you, this is a custom house rule definition, so your mileage may vary. However, it is at least defined by a common Hero System disadvantage: Limited.

 

 

"Materials:

Limited Power, Uncommon: -1/4

 

Materials is a limitation defining a spell that requires a physical item to be consumed when cast. Unlike charges, which establish an absolute limit on how often a power may be used in a given period of time, materials are easily recovered and do not limit the caster to a number of castings as long as the materials are present. Normally, there is no need to keep track of the materials while the caster remains close to a source. If a caster maintaining a constant spell loses access to his materials, the spell is immediately interrupted.

 

Materials have an inherent "obvious" disadvantage: it is clear to anyone observing that the caster is using these materials to maintain or fuel her spells. Materials are common in nature: sand, bugs, incense, water, twigs, braided long grass, special colored stones, bound strings, etc. They are easily accessible (normal combat maneuvers to grab, disarm, etc. may remove them). However, for all their vulnerability, they are also extremely easy to replace, and pose relatively little delay if they are lost.

 

Preparing new materials in battle from your own storage (in next pocket, in another pouch, from the backpack, etc.) is a 1/2 move action.

 

Examples:

 

Lored, the Druid, uses acorns to cast his “Nature’s Wrath” spell. Whenever he wishes to smite a disrespectful interloper, he hurls a charged acorn at his target, which explodes on impact. While he casts the spell, the acorn glows brightly green, is hot to the touch, and hums audibly. If he was to lose his bag of acorns, he would not be able to cast the spell, but it would be easy to obtain replacement acorns… as long as he was close to a forest.

 

Kayl, the Water Master, uses a small water pouch to feed his powerful water spells. He shapes and guides his water to form a wall to protect his comrades from the archers on the tower, while they attempt to escape by climbing the keep’s outer walls. The water in the pouch glows and floats around him while the spell is active. As long as he has the water pouch on him, he can maintain the spell. However, a clever magician, knowledgeable in Water magic, spots Kayl’s pouch, and correctly deduces that he is using it to power his spell. With a well placed fire bolt, he burns the pouch to a cinder and all the water spills out. Kayl’s water wall collapses. Fortunately, his friends have already reached the other side, and are out of sight. Kayl knows all he has to do is get a new pouch and fill it with water to be back in the magic business again. But first, he must run away."

Why not use focus expendable? is it  just simplification on your part?

I do that with my custom light effect that just images at half price.

 

I would argue at least OAF in the above case.

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Mostly because the focus then becomes the ability to cast the spell. In the case of materials, it would a -1 1/4 modifier for obvious, accessible and expendable. I wanted to create a simple way to create a very slight limitation (-1/4) that would allow for the effect of "I need this doohickey but it's not that important, because I have plenty of it".

 

The interesting thing about Foci, is that the power is defined as coming from the object (however you choose to define it). I wanted to make sure the power remained with the caster.

 

It is mostly a flavor component, and for me, Focus was too great of a disadvantage for what I wanted to create. This way, I can have a simple detail like materials be a slight disadvantage, without giving the house away.

 

But yet, an OA focus with Expendable will do just fine. I just didn't want it to be a focus.

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