Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game powered by GURPS

[Tasha]

Steve Jackson Games is doing something that I wish Hero would try. Not just releasing a rulebook with a minimal campaign inside, but a whole game prebuilt to play a particular Genre. Everything you need and nothing you don't. Streamlined rules to make it easier on beginners. etc

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps

[Old Man]

If only.

[zslane]

Murder Hobo Hero?

[Joe Walsh]

I'm glad SJGames is willing to try this experiment, and I hope it goes well for them so we see more of it.

[Wardsman]

Steve Jackson Games is doing something that I wish Hero would try. Not just releasing a rulebook with a minimal campaign inside, but a whole game prebuilt to play a particular Genre. Everything you need and nothing you don't. Streamlined rules to make it easier on beginners. etc

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps

Well then!

Those of you with a good 6th edition collection need to write something up and get licensing from Steve.

I thought about myself. But that was before I was pilloried for not using 6th on the boards. 

Now I'm not so keen on getting 6th at the moment.

[Tasha]

Well then!

Those of you with a good 6th edition collection need to write something up and get licensing from Steve.

I thought about myself. But that was before I was pilloried for not using 6th on the boards. 

Now I'm not so keen on getting 6th at the moment.

 

The only time I will get annoyed with posts about the earlier editions is when someone asks a question and gets bent out of shape when I assume they are asking a question about 6e (The current shipping edition). Also, it's kind of nice from a "Do I want to participate in this thread" if someone says that it's an older edition thread in the Subject of the post.

 

Other than that I don't really care what edition you post for.

 

Sorry if people messed with you about posting earlier edition threads.

[Wardsman]

The only time I will get annoyed with posts about the earlier editions is when someone asks a question and gets bent out of shape when I assume they are asking a question about 6e (The current shipping edition). Also, it's kind of nice from a "Do I want to participate in this thread" if someone says that it's an older edition thread in the Subject of the post.

 

Other than that I don't really care what edition you post for.

 

Sorry if people messed with you about posting earlier edition threads.

I appreciate that.

I stil think some of you should write a setting powered by hero.

[eepjr24]

I agree that someone who is passionate about it and has lots of time on their hands should do that. But I don't have time and the pay for writing is generally pretty sucky. I was on a book project at one point for SAP Press (fell through) and I figured out if they met their sales goals I would make about 10k total. Then I sat down and figured out that worked out to less than $15 an hour for some of the harder work I have ever done and was kinda glad the project fell through.

 

- E

[Nolgroth]

Steve Jackson Games is doing something that I wish Hero would try. Not just releasing a rulebook with a minimal campaign inside, but a whole game prebuilt to play a particular Genre. Everything you need and nothing you don't. Streamlined rules to make it easier on beginners. etc

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps

 

I saw this earlier during a stream of surfing that started with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and ended with me looking for boxed sets for different role playing games. I might pitch in on this but I am not sure yet.

 

Edit: This should have been what Fantasy Hero and Champions Complete should have aimed for. A truly "complete" product with the rules (done) and a polished setting of some sort. Fantasy Hero Complete Kickstarter backers got a sort of half-hearted attempt at a setting, but it lacked polish. I would have paid more for something like this Gurps thingie, which still seems to lack a setting but at least has a sample adventure. Honestly, Hero or somebody publishing under the current license, needs to learn something from Paizo and Wizards of the Coast in terms of layout and design. The textbook columns are efficient, but not really exciting. 

[Spence]

Steve Jackson Games is doing something that I wish Hero would try. Not just releasing a rulebook with a minimal campaign inside, but a whole game prebuilt to play a particular Genre. Everything you need and nothing you don't. Streamlined rules to make it easier on beginners. etc

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847271320/dungeon-fantasy-roleplaying-game-powered-by-gurps

 

It's a great idea.  This has been proposed for Hero a number of times in the past.  But usually results in the person or persons proposing it being harangued from the boards like a RPGnet witch hunt.  Completely un-hero like and generally surprising to members than have not been around here for 10+ years......  

 

Good luck with it.

[Nolgroth]

I stil think some of you should write a setting powered by hero.

 

You could try Narosia: Sea of Tears or Kamarathin: Kingdom of Tursh. Steve Long wrote up the Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, Atlantean Age, and Tuala Morn settings. And finally there is the Last Dominion: Echoes of Glory setting. Almost all of those were written explicitly for 5th edition, which sounds right up your alley. There are plenty of settings that are powered by Hero. I have read all of them but Narosia. My favorites are Last Dominion and Kamarathin. I think Last Dominion might well be because it was the first real setting for Hero that I enjoyed reading and maybe a touch of nostalgia added. Narosia is now a companion book for Fantasy Hero Complete but it was Kickstarted (and eventually delivered) as a full on standalone product. I have yet to sit down and read it in depth so I cannot comment on its relative value compared to the other settings.

 

It's not just having a setting though. It is also supporting that setting through splat books and adventures. Just dropping a setting book is going to end it up on the same pile as all of those mentioned above. Of course, the Hero community's mindset was hinted at with Spence's post. There is a segment that would support such a venture and another segment that would ridicule the very thought. Creating such a product would be a very risky venture indeed.

[Old Man]

The concept in the OP, of course, is not just a setting but an entire self-contained game in one book.  Given the thickness of my 6th ed FHC that's a tall order, but not impossible.

[Nolgroth]

I'm okay with a bundle of books instead of just one. I think that is not realistic to create a beginner product inside one book. I would break it down into four books plus some miscellaneous extras;

1. Player Guide containing Race and Profession archetypes, a magic system (not a discussion of magic systems, but a fully realized magic system), an abridged grimoire, and an appropriately detailed Gear section. If there is enough room, book 3 can also have a small summary of the combat rules. Again, no discussion on the options, just a basic idea of how Turns, Initiative, Movement, and Combat Maneuvers work together. The bulk of that would be in the Rules book. 
2. An extract from Turakian Age of a small portion of the setting. Inside that book would be a small bestiary and GM advice section. This would tie, thematically, to the Players Guide in that the magic system described in the Players Guide would carry over to here.
3. An adventure book, split into two basic parts. The first part is a step-by-step familiarization to Hero so that the players get the gist of rolling Skill and Characteristic rolls and Combat sequence.  The second part would be a fully realized adventure. Even if it is of the "murder hobo" variety. 
4. Five pre-generated characters so that the players can jump right in. I'd probably take a page from the FFG Star Wars Beginner Games and have the character sheets map out multiple choices as they gain XP.
5. A pamphlet or flyer that breaks down creating powers into a step by step formula and explains why the players and GM might want to custom build their own powers using the rules.
6. Rules Book containing just the Hero System rules from Fantasy Hero Complete. None of the theory, just the rules. 
7. (optional physical product) A set of Hero dice.
8. Various advertising flyers to encourage the purchase of other Hero products.

As much as I would like to say that we could build a fancy boxed set, I imagine that costs for that would be prohibitively high. 

 

Now the trick would be to then support that basic product by releasing splat books that expand upon the setting. Instead of Turakian Age, I think any 6E product would be something like Annals of Ambrethel or something. Alongside each splat book could be a released adventure module.

 

Would it work? Would it be profitable? Probably not. Art would be a massive expense to "do it right" for one thing. Getting any sort of physical product would be expensive. Overall industry interest would be minor and probably not be able to justify the cost and effort of such a product. If I'm going to dream though, might as well dream big.

[Steve]

The concept in the OP, of course, is not just a setting but an entire self-contained game in one book.  Given the thickness of my 6th ed FHC that's a tall order, but not impossible.

 

Narosia was a setting that included customized Hero rules, so you could run it with pretty much just the one book.

[Tasha]

I'm okay with a bundle of books instead of just one. I think that is not realistic to create a beginner product inside one book. I would break it down into four books plus some miscellaneous extras;

1. Player Guide containing Race and Profession archetypes, a magic system (not a discussion of magic systems, but a fully realized magic system), an abridged grimoire, and an appropriately detailed Gear section. If there is enough room, book 3 can also have a small summary of the combat rules. Again, no discussion on the options, just a basic idea of how Turns, Initiative, Movement, and Combat Maneuvers work together. The bulk of that would be in the Rules book. 
2. An extract from Turakian Age of a small portion of the setting. Inside that book would be a small bestiary and GM advice section. This would tie, thematically, to the Players Guide in that the magic system described in the Players Guide would carry over to here.
3. An adventure book, split into two basic parts. The first part is a step-by-step familiarization to Hero so that the players get the gist of rolling Skill and Characteristic rolls and Combat sequence.  The second part would be a fully realized adventure. Even if it is of the "murder hobo" variety. 
4. Five pre-generated characters so that the players can jump right in. I'd probably take a page from the FFG Star Wars Beginner Games and have the character sheets map out multiple choices as they gain XP.
5. A pamphlet or flyer that breaks down creating powers into a step by step formula and explains why the players and GM might want to custom build their own powers using the rules.
6. Rules Book containing just the Hero System rules from Fantasy Hero Complete. None of the theory, just the rules. 
7. (optional physical product) A set of Hero dice.
8. Various advertising flyers to encourage the purchase of other Hero products.

As much as I would like to say that we could build a fancy boxed set, I imagine that costs for that would be prohibitively high. 

 

Now the trick would be to then support that basic product by releasing splat books that expand upon the setting. Instead of Turakian Age, I think any 6E product would be something like Annals of Ambrethel or something. Alongside each splat book could be a released adventure module.

 

Would it work? Would it be profitable? Probably not. Art would be a massive expense to "do it right" for one thing. Getting any sort of physical product would be expensive. Overall industry interest would be minor and probably not be able to justify the cost and effort of such a product. If I'm going to dream though, might as well dream big.

 

Instead of a full rule book. I would include enough of the rules to explain all of the skills used on the PC's, NPCs and Critters in the books. Same with the powers. I would endeavor to have simple straightforward writeups for everything. Character Gen would be taking already built components and putting them together on the Character sheet. I would not include the whole toolkit for building new spells and abilities. I would basically make the book like a GURPS supplement where everything(Spells, class abilities, racial abilities etc) are built and ready for purchase.

 

Normally, I would think that such a product would be a waste of time for Hero/DOJ etc to pursue. We have the SJG GURPS boxed set from the OP. I never got the idea that GURPS had a huge fan base either. It would be interesting to see how quickly this product becomes funded and how many stretch goals it completes. So this one may be something that Hero should take a look at.

 

I know that Steve has made noises about making a Hero System product where everything is prebuilt and everything is ready to go. Not a toolkit like most hero products, but something that is completely ready to go. 

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, I think that any product 'powered by HERO' should seek to leverage existing stuff.

 

It should be possible to deliver a real Turakian Age game - you want a cool name for that - where not only do you not have sight of the HERO system details, you do not need them. As Tasha said, everything in there would be pre-built and players would put stuff together from things in the game.

 

What would make it a HERO System product would be an online PDF that detailed the builds and decisions made. HERO geeks could use that to toolkit and tailor the product. Those interested enough in the setting might be drawn into the HERO system because they want to change stuff but probably the majority of folk would simply play the game as presented and never really touch the HERO system beyond those glimpses provided by the game book...

 

I like to think that I am not drawn by high production values and then I look at my bookshelves and see the high gloss stuff that I have bought and never played...

 

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

I thought they did this albeit through a third party? Isn't Narosia: Sea of Tears all inclusive?

 

Fwiw, if they still have the lincense they already have the Western Shores from 4th as a decent material to start with and even non-standard races to boot to go along with the classics. I personally would make Elves and Dwarves one race apiece with the option of sub-races. And perhaps somehow have it that a GM could expand it to Eastern Shores AKA Ninja Hero! Also some of the sample magical items in the books I'm not sure were official to the sample game but had interesting backgrounds that I would love to see included. The items from the Dragon wars are neat and so is the Lion Shield off the top of my head.

[Doc Democracy]

It looks like Narosia is indeed just this...

 

Shipping to UK not expensive either. I guess I know where my next £40 will be spent...putting my money where my mouth is.

 

I missed any chat and talk about this. Did it feature much on the boards??

 

 

Doc

[zslane]

This sort of things gets proposed about every six months around here. And the proposal usually dies in committee.

 

Reaching consensus on what such a product (or product line) should contain and how it should be presented seems to be nearly impossible. And then there's the question of just who, exactly, is going to write and edit and publish this amazing project?

 

The reason you're seeing a GURPS project like this is because GURPS is still driven by an individual (and a company) that publishes RPG products. The Hero System does not enjoy that luxury. That means it is entirely up to the HS user community to do this, and to somehow do it so that it doesn't look like someone's hobby-project-turned-Kickstarter-campaign.

 

It's not enough to just have a few good ideas. Someone has to have a solid, focused vision for a product (line), as well as the time, talent, and resources to turn it into published reality. Who, pray tell, is that?

[Nolgroth]

Good question zslane. I think it is important to remember that this is a discussion board and this is a discussion. Think of us as a bunch of "good ol' boys" solving all the worlds problems from the comfort of our front porch and a glass of lemonade. It may not mean anything in the end, but it is sure fun to dream and BS. 

 

One of the things that a fan has to overcome is licensing. It is one thing to use the Hero license to build an adventure or even a campaign setting. It is a whole different animal to get permission to use an established Hero IP like the Turakian Age or to reprint any portion of the actual rules. I imagine that Steve Long still holds rights to Turakian Age that are separate from Hero Games/DoJ Inc. Trying to actually use an established Hero Games campaign setting might be more trouble than just building a custom, if generic, setting.

 

There are certainly other challenges to this sort of project. Art resources, not to put too fine a point on it, are a huge barrier to entry. One of my personal dislikes of Narosia is that the art looks like your aforementioned "hobby-project-turned-Kickstarter-campaign." I actually don't know how good or bad the actual writing is because I can't get past the art. If I were going to do such a project, I would imagine that somewhere between 10-12 art pieces per book for a couple of the books I proposed and more for a bestiary. That is expensive to license that much art. I would not know exactly how expensive, but it wouldn't be cheap.

 

Layout and typography is a challenge. Do you have to use Adobe InDesign or is open source software sufficient to pump out a professional looking project? InDesign is about $20 per month ($50/month of the whole Adobe suit of apps). Another incurred expense. Fonts are potentially another expense. Are the licensed (read costly) fonts better than free alternatives? If so, how much does a handful of fonts cost? Are there further licensing restrictions that apply? Then, once all your costs are done, you have to take all of that text and carefully craft your finished project before churning it out into PDF format. There is another potential cost there. Does Adobe Acrobat create substantively "better" PDFs than say a print to PDF filter that you can download for free off the internet. Are there commercial options that are less expensive than Adobe.

 

Aside from word of mouth, how do you advertise your product or even Kickstarter campaign? This is Hero and a word of mouth campaign is much more difficult than something for a more recognizable IP.

 

Those are just some of the considerations. Those questions, and a final out of pocket cost estimate, can all be answered with a few hours of research but they are things that I don't know now. 

 

Then you actually have to write the product. If you can pull existing sources for the packages, bestiary and grimoire via a licensing agreement with DoJ, a lot of the "grunt" work has been done for you. If not, then you not only have to be an author, you have to be a game designer too. Right now, working full time at another job, it would take me about a year to craft such a project. A little less if the aforementioned "grunt" work has been done. After it is all said and done, I would not expect to profit from the venture. It would have to be a labor of love. Expecting to make money in this market is kind of short-sighted. Continuing support would also have to be labors of love and ultimately, that is a doomed strategy. The good thing, on the other hand, is that it would make one hell of a resume' entry for that sort of market.

 

I say these things, not to discourage, but to look at a project of this magnitude with open and clear eyes. It is entirely possible to get this done, but it isn't a weekend jaunt or a vacation project. It would become a second job, an investment into resources, a massive pile of stress and a disruption to any author's personal life. If somebody could see it through and understand that it is something that is done more for the satisfaction of doing it than for any hope of financial solvency, it can be a rewarding accomplishment.

 

That is the challenge here.

[zslane]

Good question zslane. I think it is important to remember that this is a discussion board and this is a discussion. Think of us as a bunch of "good ol' boys" solving all the worlds problems from the comfort of our front porch and a glass of lemonade. It may not mean anything in the end, but it is sure fun to dream and BS.

I suppose. I guess I just don't see the point of all the very earnest, creative discussion if it doesn't lead to anything. Which it never does in the end, for all the reasons you very cogently described.

[Nolgroth]

I suppose. I guess I just don't see the point of all the very earnest, creative discussion if it doesn't lead to anything. Which it never does in the end, for all the reasons you very cogently described.

 

It's a hope thing and honestly, a distraction from actually doing that very thing we hope to see accomplished. You'll notice a lot of the messages are couched with "somebody else should..." type of language. You also hit the nail on the head with the "death by committee" comment earlier.

 

Despite all that, I continue to hope. I also continue to mentally plan because one day, that "somebody else" might well be me. I'm getting to a point in my life where I am inventorying what I have accomplished versus what I had planned to five, ten, twenty years ago. The balance sheet doesn't look good and I've started to get this slow, burning want/desire/need to actually chase down a dream and make it reality. Part of the reason for my previous message is for me to look at the enormity of this kind of project and realistically assess if it is possible for me to do something like this.

 

Talk to me in another six months when the next thread pops up.

[Wardsman]

I've  been wondering if a skilled LaTex user could pull something like this off?

I'm not skilled But I've been wanting to learn.

[zslane]

LaTex could be useful once you get to the layout stage. But I honestly wouldn't waste any brain cycles on that until you are actually faced with having hundreds of pages of final manuscript pages, with dozens of pieces of art, to lay out.

[Scott Baker]

It looks like Narosia is indeed just this...

 

Shipping to UK not expensive either. I guess I know where my next £40 will be spent...putting my money where my mouth is.

 

I missed any chat and talk about this. Did it feature much on the boards??

 

 

Doc

It ran the rounds here when it was a kickstarter campaign. Then there were delays, so you can imagine the back-and-forth on that. In the end, they delivered, which is a lot more than can be said for other game projects on KS.