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[Nolgroth]

I'm not a market analyst and supers are one of my least favorite gaming genres so I personally couldn't tell you. I haven't seen any massive new products released but again, I haven't been looking. You'd think there would be some cause/effect but somebody else would be a better judge of that than me.

[zslane]

D&D is, and probably always will be, the dominant force in table top RPGs. The only reason d20 is still popular (and let's face it, when we say "d20" we're really just using that as code for Pathfinder) is that it was once the core of the D&D system, which then had the good fortune to be kept alive in a highly competent manner after being abandoned by WotC. Pathfinder is like "the other D&D", and as far as the marketplace is concerned, might as well be the same thing as D&D. These two games will succeed regardless of the depth of their campaign worlds; unfortunately other games don't have that luxury.

 

Playing "me too" with the dominant market leader is a good way to get lost in the shuffle, I feel. It didn't work for Apple in the 1990s, and I don't think it will work for the Hero System today. However, doing something new and different has proven to be highly effective given the right market conditions and the right vision. Games like Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, and Vampire: the Masquerade come immediately to mind.

 

If a project wants to take the path of least resistance, so be it. I just don't think that, in the end, the results (in terms of marketplace success and other related goals, like sustained growth in the HS player base) will turn out to have made all the effort worthwhile. I mean, be honest, wouldn't you rather put in extraordinary effort towards something truly extraordinary?

[Nolgroth]

zslane, I don't think you and I are going to agree on this. I appreciate your input, respect your opinion, and even understand where you are coming from. I just don't share that opinion. I am doing some research into the process and costs of completing and bringing a product to the market. If I make the decision to pull that trigger, I have a very detailed plan of action that I intend to follow. Talking theory is great though, and having somebody willing to critique that plan is always fun and ultimately educational. Just for giggles, do you have any alternative concepts that you'd like to suggest? It doesn't have to be a pre-written 250 page campaign guide replete with full-color, 8x10 glossy battlemaps, just a simple sentence or two high concept.

[zslane]

I don't. If I had a concept so good that it was worth pouring hundreds (or more) hours of my time into, I'd be looking for partners (both creative and financial) myself. I don't have what it takes to make the right product in the right way, and so I prefer to simply try and nudge more talented folks onto the right path (as I see it). And if I can't nudge them, at least I can make them aware of the likely pitfalls of straying from it.

 

Besides, a sentence or two is, I suspect, wholly insufficient to make clear how a campaign setting would be more than just another branch of the D&D tree. If I tried, every contrarion who wants to put me in my place would challenge every word of those two sentences and (rightly) point out how conventional and derivative it sounds. I'd need at least a couple of paragraphs, and maybe even a snippet of short fiction to really convey the tone and texture of the setting.

 

But like I said, I have neither the writing chops nor the energy to expend on such a Sisyphean task. But that shouldn't disqualify me from pointing out, in a respectful if not entirely constructive (for the above mentioned reason) way, the cold hard truth of it (again, as I see it).

[Nolgroth]

Fair enough. I think we have bandied this back and forth enough to know where each other stands.

[Wardsman]

Some thoughts possible settings.

• A compelling Urban Fantasy if that boat hasn't passed
• Tekumel, Empire of the Petal Throne
• Glorantha
• Maybe Harn or at least an adaption of its magic system

The last three may be too old school. But Tekumel rivals Middle Earth in richness. You would have to look at why the licensing for Glorantha keeps changing and how that recent product sold.

 

Apparently Time Travel is one of the hot trends in Young Adult right now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-parkin/5-exciting-ya-book-trends-to-look-for-in-2016_b_8328078.html

[Nolgroth]

Some thoughts possible settings.

• A compelling Urban Fantasy if that boat hasn't passed
• Tekumel, Empire of the Petal Throne
• Glorantha
• Maybe Harn or at least an adaption of its magic system

The last three may be too old school. But Tekumel rivals Middle Earth in richness. You would have to look at why the licensing for Glorantha keeps changing and how that recent product sold.

 

Apparently Time Travel is one of the hot trends in Young Adult right now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-parkin/5-exciting-ya-book-trends-to-look-for-in-2016_b_8328078.html

 

Funny enough, I know almost nothing about the three settings that you listed. That would increase my learning curve if I pursued any of those licenses. Besides, I either want to use an existing Hero setting or roll my own. That makes for a lot easier time of it, IMO. I cannot qualify your suggestions as good or bad, due to my lack of familiarity with them. Urban Fantasy is pretty well covered by Monster Hunter, Inc. 

 

Time Travel you say? That is an intriguing idea. If nothing else it would be interesting to run a time shifting adventure. I was watching footage of Dishonored 2 where the protagonist was using a device to shift from a present day, run down ruined mansion, to the past where it was still a living home for its residents. How the protagonist used it to avoid guards, locked gates and the like was very interesting. I'm not certain that it would make the basis for a "beginner game" product, but it would certainly be interesting (and challenging) to write that kind of story as an adventure that is independent of this other product. I like it.

[Wardsman]

Funny enough, I know almost nothing about the three settings that you listed. That would increase my learning curve if I pursued any of those licenses. Besides, I either want to use an existing Hero setting or roll my own. That makes for a lot easier time of it, IMO. I cannot qualify your suggestions as good or bad, due to my lack of familiarity with them. Urban Fantasy is pretty well covered by Monster Hunter, Inc. 

 

Time Travel you say? That is an intriguing idea. If nothing else it would be interesting to run a time shifting adventure. I was watching footage of Dishonored 2 where the protagonist was using a device to shift from a present day, run down ruined mansion, to the past where it was still a living home for its residents. How the protagonist used it to avoid guards, locked gates and the like was very interesting. I'm not certain that it would make the basis for a "beginner game" product, but it would certainly be interesting (and challenging) to write that kind of story as an adventure that is independent of this other product. I like it.

Best description of Tekumel I ever found.

 

After roleplaying in countless fantasy worlds based on European/Celtic models, a world that does not rely on these overused backgrounds is a refreshing change of pace. Tékumel, a setting drawing heavily from Middle Eastern, Chinese, Indian, and Mesoamerican cultures, fits the bill perfectly. Tékumel is a place with the politics and intrigue of the Roman Empire, the religions of ancient India and pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, the magic of the Arabian Nights, the monsters and demons of the Cthulhu mythos, plus ancient ruins containing the technology of a good space opera thrown in just to keep things interesting.

 

The fact that it is both Unique fantasy and has scifiction Relics makes me think of Hero.

 

http://www.tekumel.com/world_history01.html

 

http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_tools.html

 

 

Glorantha is the setting for Rune Quest.

http://www.glorantha.com/

 

 

Harn itself is interesting. It lowlevel and gritty. Close to the 1200's on Earth socially but with a gritty magic.  

But there is a related High fantasy world in it planar cosmology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A2rn

[bluesguy]

Harn itself is interesting. It lowlevel and gritty. Close to the 1200's on Earth socially but with a gritty magic.  

But there is a related High fantasy world in it planar cosmology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A2rn

 

I have used Harn as a background w/ Hero as gaming mechanic and it worked pretty well.  If you used all the optional combat rules you would get the gritty Harn Master level combat.

[Ninja-Bear]

My next question would be; "Who owns the intellectual property rights to Western Shores?" If that person or entity is unwilling to license it out, then we could not use it.

 

The amount of official development could still be pretty bare boned and provide ample foundation for more details.

Yeah I have no Idea. Andi reference it more due to that's what I own.

[Spence]

I read this and chuckled a bit. And we're off! Down the same path of intricate design that has driven new players away as surely as a well timed volley.

 

Pick up a copy of D&D 5th and tell me where they stuck the intricate world design. Answer, they didn't.

 

Why do the games with high detail worlds in the initial core books immediately immediately fade to niche obscurity? Because gamers are a lazy lot and they want to play a bit before investing the massive effort to "learn" a world enough to play.

 

Now the past 40ish years has established a common generic core fantasy world. WotC understood this and didn't waste pages for book one. FHC was great except it lack a fully usable set of pre-built templates, races, spells and equipment.

 

New games need to allow new players to whip up characters and kill some orcs on they same day they bought the book.

 

Hero has an advantage they refuse to exploit. Other systems have to give their nod to murder hobos and munchkins in the book, see tieflings, warlocks etc. Hero really can just go with the core archetypes, and then seal the deal with Heroes stupendous customizability.

 

"You mean I can use magic as a fighter and not be stuck with all that other stuff! Cool!"

[Old Man]

Hero has another advantage: it's easier to learn.

 

Crazy talk, I know.  But I made the effort to learn enough Pathfinder to join a PBEM a couple years back, and the classes, archetypes, racial abilities, and feats alone are almost impossible to get your head around.  Let alone truly counterintuitive mechanics like saving throws and armor class, which I already understood from primordial D&D.  At any rate, I have decided that Hero's notorious steep learning curve is a lie, at least compared to the mainstream games. 

[Spence]

Hero has another advantage: it's easier to learn.

 

Crazy talk, I know.  But I made the effort to learn enough Pathfinder to join a PBEM a couple years back, and the classes, archetypes, racial abilities, and feats alone are almost impossible to get your head around.  Let alone truly counterintuitive mechanics like saving throws and armor class, which I already understood from primordial D&D.  At any rate, I have decided that Hero's notorious steep learning curve is a lie, at least compared to the mainstream games. 

 

A lot of truth there. 

[Nolgroth]

Hero has another advantage: it's easier to learn.

 

Crazy talk, I know.  But I made the effort to learn enough Pathfinder to join a PBEM a couple years back, and the classes, archetypes, racial abilities, and feats alone are almost impossible to get your head around.  Let alone truly counterintuitive mechanics like saving throws and armor class, which I already understood from primordial D&D.  At any rate, I have decided that Hero's notorious steep learning curve is a lie, at least compared to the mainstream games. 

 

I guess we are both insane then.

[Christopher R Taylor]

This is what my "Player's Handbook/DM guide*" will be for my Jolrhos campaign.  Its going to be a fully released game, using 4th edition as a template for layout and simplicity, but using 6th edition rules with some house rule changes that are specific to the campaign.  Assuming I can get the okay from Hero, and can get it written.  Also planned is an introductory adventure and set of characters to drop people directly into the game as easily and quickly as possible.  

 

*What they'll actually be called I'll figure out when I get to the final writing of course.

[Old Man]

That sounds awesome!  But can you answer a question for me?  It's kind of embarrassing to ask... but how do you pronounce "Jolrhos"?

[Christopher R Taylor]

"Joll-hroce" I guess. But the customer can pronounce it any way they want

[Steve]

Jolly Horse?

[L. Marcus]

Julros is a flower ...

[Old Man]

"Joll-hrose" I guess. But the customer can pronounce it any way they want

 

I guess it rhymes with "drow" then. 

[L. Marcus]

Welsh pronunciation: "droo".

[Wardsman]

Welsh pronunciation: "droo".

so do the scottish. It means cold mist.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Isn't Narosia basically the same concept, a re-skinned Fantasy Hero?  But with a bigger budget than me?

[Nolgroth]

Isn't Narosia basically the same concept, a re-skinned Fantasy Hero?  But with a bigger budget than me?

 

Narosia is a Fantasy Hero campaign made into a combined setting/rules product. It had a large enough Kickstarter to get it over the hump and actually published but was also set by production woes (flaky layout person to name the big one) and delays because of those woes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's what I figured, its basically what I am trying to do but with a better budget and more people  Maybe once I get everything done I can do a kickstarter for a box set or to launch the full set.  Each book takes me a year or more to do though, so it may be a while.