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GCMorris

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Hi all. Building a character who generates and manipulates crystal. I want her to be able to generate an area of brittle crystals around her so that it crunches whenever someone (invisible) approaches. Would this be done as a Detect or PER rolls bonus? I'm using 4e.

This does go into Sense Territory. The only way around Invisibility, is a different sense (group) altogether.

Having a Change Environment with penalty to move Stealthily would work. But only if the skill is on a normal level and the person does not also has invisibility (hearing).

 

If an attacker has Invisibility (Sight and Hearing group), then you will neither be able to see nor hear him with this power.

Sight group covers indirect detection too (so you can not see the Crystalls break until way after it happened).

While Hearing covers produced sounds too (the crystalls breaking, inlcuding indirectly).

At the same time it does not block the users sight or hearing in any way.

Having Inivisible Power Effects(Hearing) on the ground movement would also help, as it would at least reduced the penaly for "using movement Stealthily".

 

Overall the power is extremely situational, requiring invisibility/Being Blinded to Sight, while not also covering Hearing.

If you want something more reliable, consider buying "Range for Touch, Only through ground(-?)" or even a Independant Sense.

The Touch group is the one normally impossible to make yourself Invisible against - that requires Desolidification.

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If an attacker has Invisibility (Sight and Hearing group), then you will neither be able to see nor hear him with this power.

Sight group covers indirect detection too (so you can not see the Crystalls break until way after it happened).

I am curious why you think that? I have never read that in a Hero product and 6e1 240 says (emphasis mine):

Other characters may find creative ways to overcome a character’s Invisibility. For example, throwing a blanket over an Invisible to Sight Group character would reveal his position. So would trapping him in an Entangle, splashing paint on him, spilling liquids or powders on the floor so he leaves footprints, and so forth. Depending on the situation, the special effects, and similar considerations, this may allow other characters to attack the Invisible character at full OCV or -1 OCV.

So Change Environment should work fine. I would probably do sound images with a trigger for invisibility, with a linked "Detect Sight Invisibility" on it, but there are prrobably several ways to build it.

 

- E

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re: Invisibility vs. Hearing

 

I recently read somewhere that Black Panther has Vibranium soles on the shoes of his uniform which allow him to walk silently on any surface (Invisibility vs. Hearing plus IPE on Running).

 

I am pretty sure that he could run right over a 'crystalized floor' an still not make a sound.  This is why I was very careful in my suggestion about Change Environment since it would only impose a penalty to a Stealth roll but would have zero effect on Invisiblity vs. Hearing.

 

HM

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re: Invisibility vs. Hearing

 

I recently read somewhere that Black Panther has Vibranium soles on the shoes of his uniform which allow him to walk silently on any surface (Invisibility vs. Hearing plus IPE on Running).

 

I am pretty sure that he could run right over a 'crystalized floor' an still not make a sound.  This is why I was very careful in my suggestion about Change Environment since it would only impose a penalty to a Stealth roll but would have zero effect on Invisiblity vs. Hearing.

 

HM

I agree, if he has invisibility vs Hearing (IvH). To get around that you would need something that could detect the IvH and react to it. So the build above for invisibility versus sight would work if you built it specifically for IvH. If you did not want him to know he was detected you could buy it as Images vs Mental Group or Radio with a trigger and linked Detect IvH.

 

- E

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I would go with Change Environment to give a bonus to Hearing PER Rolls. If the invisible character bought normal Invisibility, you get a PER Roll anyway based on their Fringe*, so this could either be a bonus to that roll or extend the range/area at which the Fringe is detectable. If the character bought their Invisibility with No Fringe, then the CE has no effect and they get to walk across the crystals silently.

 

* I had to double-check to make sure 4e had Fringe as the standard, but it does.

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I would go with Change Environment to give a bonus to Hearing PER Rolls. If the invisible character bought normal Invisibility, you get a PER Roll anyway based on their Fringe*, so this could either be a bonus to that roll or extend the range/area at which the Fringe is detectable. If the character bought their Invisibility with No Fringe, then the CE has no effect and they get to walk across the crystals silently.

 

* I had to double-check to make sure 4e had Fringe as the standard, but it does.

In 6e at least you cannot buy CE to give a bonus to anything. I don't think that was different in 4e, but it has been a while?

 

I would probably allow a Change Environment to add to Fringe for something like 5 points per meter it added, but that would be pure house rule. 

 

- E

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In 6e at least you cannot buy CE to give a bonus to anything. I don't think that was different in 4e, but it has been a while?

 

I would probably allow a Change Environment to add to Fringe for something like 5 points per meter it added, but that would be pure house rule. 

 

- E

You're correct RE 6e not permitting bonuses.  You can only impose penalties in 5er, as well.

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In 6e at least you cannot buy CE to give a bonus to anything. I don't think that was different in 4e, but it has been a while?

Good point. Tho I don't see that mentioned in 4ed. (Change Environment was incredibly broad/vague before 5ed.) You could call it a penalty on the sneaker's Stealth Roll and accomplish the same thing.

 

Wait, Fringe is about the chance to notice the Active Power in question - so a No Fringe would do nothing to mitigate the effects of attempting to walk stealthily, let alone walk stealthily through a field meant to trigger noise when someone passes through.

I thought we were talking about Invisible to Hearing, in which case the Fringe gives the sneak-ee a Hearing PER Roll. (Which could be modified by CE.) If you're assuming the Fringe is on Invisible to Sight, then yeah that wouldn't be relevant here.

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We should be reasoning from effect. Not trying to work from a power to the effect.

The build is to detect someone approaching.

How about 
24 Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, out of combat, Function as a Sense) (30 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (Shattered crystal on ground; -1/4) 14-

Tells you if someone is approaching and there's none of that "well invis does this or that bs". It does the job.

I guess you could drill down to how DS is built as a Detect, but this is easier.

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We should be reasoning from effect. Not trying to work from a power to the effect.

 

The build is to detect someone approaching.

 

How about 

24 Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, out of combat, Function as a Sense) (30 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (Shattered crystal on ground; -1/4) 14-

 

Tells you if someone is approaching and there's none of that "well invis does this or that bs". It does the job.

 

I guess you could drill down to how DS is built as a Detect, but this is easier.

Easier doesn't necessarily equate to better.  In fact, as I've already pointed out elsewhere, it often equates to lazier.  For example, this approach, while ,easy, was lazy in that it completely failed to address how much crystal can be put down cross what area (how many meters AoE is 'immediate vicinity', exactly???).  It also failed to clearly address/define the effective range (crystals go down in immediate vicinity,  individual moves a city block away -- what happens?).  What happens if hearing is flashed -- shouldn't the DS also not function since the effect was shattered crystal that would be heard?  And last, crunchy crystal on the ground will be heard by, well, everyone who can hear, yet you didn't buy this DS with usable by others (and if you did, how would you efficiently accommodate the potential for a LOT of others to hear it???), so it only operates for the person who laid down the crystal ... whereas actual crystal on the ground that's walked over will be heard by all who can hear such things, right?

 

I think you get my point.  It's great to reason by effect back to the power -- so long as the choices you make reasonably represent the effect that was described/defined.  DS, as written above -- fails to adequately do so -- at least the way I'm reading it -- with the real deal-breakers being that if hearing is flashed this DS (unusual group) will still work AND it only works for one individual, not multiple people who would hear crunchy crystal when traversed (the other issues can be more readily refined and simply weren't).  I suppose some would handwave all of those important details away; perhaps that's your style?

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Easier doesn't necessarily equate to better.  In fact, as I've already pointed out elsewhere, it often equates to lazier.  For example, this approach, while ,easy, was lazy in that it completely failed to address how much crystal can be put down cross what area (how many meters AoE is 'immediate vicinity', exactly???).  It also failed to clearly address/define the effective range (crystals go down in immediate vicinity,  individual moves a city block away -- what happens?).  What happens if hearing is flashed -- shouldn't the DS also not function since the effect was shattered crystal that would be heard?  And last, crunchy crystal on the ground will be heard by, well, everyone who can hear, yet you didn't buy this DS with usable by others (and if you did, how would you efficiently accommodate the potential for a LOT of others to hear it???), so it only operates for the person who laid down the crystal ... whereas actual crystal on the ground that's walked over will be heard by all who can hear such things, right?

 

I think you get my point.  It's great to reason by effect back to the power -- so long as the choices you make reasonably represent the effect that was described/defined.  DS, as written above -- fails to adequately do so -- at least the way I'm reading it -- with the real deal-breakers being that if hearing is flashed this DS (unusual group) will still work AND it only works for one individual, not multiple people who would hear crunchy crystal when traversed (the other issues can be more readily refined and simply weren't).  I suppose some would handwave all of those important details away; perhaps that's your style?

BTW Simple and to the Point is ALWAYS better. If you have to use a bunch of powers and have to hand wave the way other powers work. It's pretty clear that you are on the wrong track. Lazy is opening the book and pulling a bunch of powers out without really thinking hard about them. 

 

 

 

Hi all. Building a character who generates and manipulates crystal. I want her to be able to generate an area of brittle crystals around her so that it crunches whenever someone (invisible) approaches. Would this be done as a Detect or PER rolls bonus? I'm using 4e.

 

Well, first the OP didn't specify that others had to hear the crystal break. It's pretty easy to do that. It's just a bit expensive. Also the other things are easy to add as limitations. Since you want someone to do the work for you. Nothing about others hearing it, or that it must be a huge AOE. To make YOU happy I wrote it up to YOUR specifications.

 

Here's the build below

 

48 Danger Sense (general area, out of combat, Function as a Sense), Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor; +1 1/2) (85 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Not vs Flying or gliding opponents.; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Works as a Hearing Sense; -1/4) 13-

 

 

 

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I'm inclined to think Christopher might be on to something with his Ranged Touch sense idea. Build it with Physical Manifestation and Costs END to activate, and it seems like it would fulfill the OPs desires. To aid teammates, give it Usable By Others for everyone within a set range.

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I am curious why you think that? I have never read that in a Hero product and 6e1 240 says (emphasis mine):

So Change Environment should work fine. I would probably do sound images with a trigger for invisibility, with a linked "Detect Sight Invisibility" on it, but there are prrobably several ways to build it.

 

- E

You are right, indirect detection using normal means works.

 

But we are talking about a power being designed to counter that Inivisibility. A power working (possibly) on a Sense the Invisibiltiy is designed against.

Invisibility is for me an absolute. The only way to break it is to use another Sense group altogether.

 

On wich sense would that trigger react? Touch?

 

In 6e at least you cannot buy CE to give a bonus to anything. I don't think that was different in 4e, but it has been a while?

 

I would probably allow a Change Environment to add to Fringe for something like 5 points per meter it added, but that would be pure house rule. 

 

- E

With Skill vs Skill contests, a penalty to his roll is a bonus to yours.

One of the examples for CE even is a stealth suit that gives enemies penalties to Perception rolls. Wich is a buff to your stealth roll.

 

We should be reasoning from effect. Not trying to work from a power to the effect.

 

The build is to detect someone approaching.

 

How about 

24 Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, out of combat, Function as a Sense) (30 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (Shattered crystal on ground; -1/4) 14-

 

Tells you if someone is approaching and there's none of that "well invis does this or that bs". It does the job.

 

I guess you could drill down to how DS is built as a Detect, but this is easier.

That is a good idea too. Just a quick reminder how it is written up:

"Base ability is Detect Danger Detectable By Normal Human Senses In Combat, Including Range To Danger, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees) (total cost: 10 points), plus Targeting (10 Active Points); Only If Character Makes Half Roll (-1) (total cost: 5 points). Total cost: 15 points" - 6E1 447

And it is build as a Independant Sense, that means no Invisibility not directly targetting it (at Targetting Sense Group costs) would work.

 

But the "this or that" stuff is fun! ;)

 

HM

Not when senses are concerend.

Then stuff just becomes wierd quickly.

Better to keep it to a few basic rules (Invisibility trumps all Sense in that Sense Group) and not get bogged down here too much.

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But we are talking about a power being designed to counter that Inivisibility. A power working (possibly) on a Sense the Invisibiltiy is designed against.

Invisibility is for me an absolute. The only way to break it is to use another Sense group altogether.

 

On wich sense would that trigger react? Touch?

No, it acts on the linked Detect Sight Invisibility that I bought specifically for it, as mentioned. That Detect I would probably leave in the Unusual "Group" since the SFX to me would not neatly fit one of the other groups. I suppose if the OP thought of it as acting on Hearing (crunching the crystals), Radio (crystals give off RF noise when disturbed), or Touch (the character "feels" when the crystals are touched), all of those would work equally well. 

 

Invisibility (by RAW) is not absolute at all. For sight (using this example), there is the possibility of Fringe, Bright Fringe, Indirect Detection (as covered earlier), Direct Detection (using normal senses other than what the invisibility covers) and Unusual Senses (Of which there are at least 10 listed without getting into edge cases). Even trying to make just sight Invisibility absolute would cost 80 points right off the bat. If the player wanted it that badly I would probably hand wave it at that point and call it "absolute", but certainly not for 20 points.

 

- E

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But we are talking about a power being designed to counter that Inivisibility. A power working (possibly) on a Sense the Invisibiltiy is designed against.

If we focus exclusively on Invisibility, then a stealthy Ninja takes no penalty crossing this crunchy ground.

 

Rather than CE to enhance Hearing PER rolls, what about an AoE CE that forces a Stealth check at -X? Stealth is an Everyman skill, so Joe Normal starts with 8-.

 

Set penalty to taste.

 

It seems like this will be a rather expensive power for its benefit, though, regardless of how it is constructed. Maybe that's not a big deal, if it's a slot in a Multipower for example. If it is, some form of Lingering or lasting effect is needed so the crystals stick around for a while.

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How about 

24 Danger Sense (immediate vicinity, out of combat, Function as a Sense) (30 Active Points); Physical Manifestation (Shattered crystal on ground; -1/4) 14-

That works too. And Detect was much cheaper in 4e: 3 AP +2 to make it a Sense.

 

Oh, and it should probably have some sort of Immobile Limitation to reflect the fact that the crystals can't be moved - the Power would have to be reactivated in another location.

 

What happens if hearing is flashed -- shouldn't the DS also not function since the effect was shattered crystal that would be heard?

Well that at least is easy to address - you just define the Detect as Hearing Group. But I think you're right that if anyone nearby can hear the crystals breaking, then Usable By (Multiple) Others at range is going to get expensive fast.

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If we focus exclusively on Invisibility, then a stealthy Ninja takes no penalty crossing this crunchy ground.

Exactly. Or in Darkness, or if the caster has been Flashed or blindfolded...

 

I think you're right that CE to trigger a Stealth Roll is the simplest way to go. It's really an environmental effect, and no different than if there was a bunch of naturally-occurring dry leaves on the ground. 4ed CE has Area Effect by default, so you just buy up the Radius, define what penalty you want to put on the Roll (4e leaves this subjective, so the GM just assigns whatever seems fair) and you're off.

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Some of this discussion suggests that Invisibility should be written up differently in the system. Hero is the one system that says "no Absolutes" ex Invisibility. Why not define Invisibility as a flat -8 to Perception vs all of the things you wish to be invisible for. "No Fringe" adds like another -4 to that. Then Detect Invisibility becomes a +8 to perception only vs invisibility.

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BTW fully invisible people DO have ground pressure. So Invisible or not they should still trip traps (ie Pressure plate) break fragile surfaces etc. So someone invisible vs sound would still make a noisy floor creak, tear rice paper set down on the floor, leave footprints in the mud etc

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