The cost of Weapon Master

[mallet]

Hi All,

 

Just trying to figure out how the cost of Weapon Master was arrived at and if I am missing something. 

 

Currently it costs 24pts for the equivalent of +1d6 KA, or +3d6 ND (as an optional rule in the book)

 

but +1d6 KA only cost 15pts and +3d6 ND is also only 15pts, so why does the talent cost so much more when it is actually more restricted? I often see official builds with damage bonuses from weapons built as powers (ex. Club: HA +1d6) and that only costs 4pts (or even less if you add a Focus to it) and since Weapon Master implies that there will also be a Focus in it's build, what am I missing as to why +3d6 NA built as a power (with a focus OIF (weapon of opportunity) limitation) only costs 9 points, but Weapon Master as a talent giving +3d6 NA (blunt weapons) costs 20 pts. 

 

 

Is there some hidden benefit to the talent I am not seeing?

[eepjr24]

6e1, 447:

Weaponmaster: Six 3-, 5- or 8-point Combat Skill Levels with various groups of weapons, with these Limitations: Only To Increase Damage (-½), plus a -½ Only With Weapons Limitation for the 8-point Levels.

 

As to the rest of your question, that is a design question. Which means it won't get answered here, since players don't know and Steve doesn't say. =)

 

I would hazard a guess that buying 1d6 HKA would not add to the original attack, instead, it would apply to the defenses separate from the original attack. You could buy additional strength to add to the attack, but you run into the BaseDmgx2 rule, which CSL's avoid. And you also avoid STR Maxima for campaigns that have those.

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

I think CSL's also add Damage Class directly so they don't get prorated (as velocity and STR bonuses would) if the base HA or KA has Advantages.that affects damage.  And don't underestimate the value of them being 0 END.

 

HM

[Lucius]

I think CSL's also add Damage Class directly so they don't get prorated (as velocity and STR bonuses would) if the base HA or KA has Advantages.that affects damage.  And don't underestimate the value of them being 0 END.

 

HM

 

Underlined for emphasis

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Skill Levels with Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[Hugh Neilson]

I didn't think this was such a secret. Weapon Master is 6 skill levels, restricted to adding damage. That got rid of the 5e question on whether it was mechanically legal to buy a "floating DC that adds to other abilities, including equipment not purchased with points".

 

The damage adder rules in 5e were pretty confusing, and cleanup was a goal for 6e. Some low hanging fruit, like some mechanics only increasing KA's by half as much, was pretty easy.

 

The doubling cap (and even whether STR should add to HKA's*) was less simple. As I recall from SETAC discussions, we started with "should the cap of doubling base damage exist", and the conclusion was "no". That meant that you could now use, say, 6 skill levels to add 1d6 KA to your 1/2 d6 Knife, to which you were also adding 10 STR, to take your 1d6+1 to 2d6+1.

 

Then 6e came out and, although the "doubling damage" cap was gone, the sidebar suggesting it be reinstated in many cases was added, making the rule change a bit schizophrenic - removal of the damage cap with the suggestion you just put it back again.

 

* This isn't as tied to the specific issue, but it's part of the damage adding rules it leads from. Here, the 6e enhancement of decoupling bumped into intuition that STR should increase damage from a sword, despite the fact no other mechanic allows one ability to enhance another (not just Figured characteristics - stretching damage, growth damage and base mental defense, for example, were all removed). To me, the choice boiled down to systems purity, and some really kludgy builds for weapons, at least in a heroic game, to have "+x DC limited based on STR above STR MIN".

 

In a Supers game, have you ever seen a character buy a HKA he can't double? If they do, that was stupid. Why have a 3d6 HKA and a 15 STR when you can have all the benefits of a 30 STR, drop your HKA to 2s6 and still have the same 4d6 HKA? It's something for nothing. With 20/20 hindsight, maybe the answer should have been "Real Weapon includes a cap on damage added by STR, equal to the base weapon damage".

[Surrealone]

I think CSL's also add Damage Class directly so they don't get prorated (as velocity and STR bonuses would) if the base HA or KA has Advantages.that affects damage.  And don't underestimate the value of them being 0 END.

 

HM

1d6 KA or 3d6 ND cost 15 pts.  15 * 1.5 = 22.5 which rounds down in the player's favor.

 

So 0 END accounts for some (22 pts) of the cost inflation for the talent at 24 pts ... but mathematically where can we empirically demonstrate the source of the other 2 pts for which we presently have no accounting?  (Are you saying that people can pay 2 pts not to have things like velocity and STR bonuses pro-rated?  Show me THAT rule/mechanic, please!)

[eepjr24]

1d6 KA or 3d6 ND cost 15 pts.  15 * 1.5 = 22.5 which rounds down in the player's favor.

 

So 0 END accounts for some (22 pts) of the cost inflation for the talent at 24 pts ... but mathematically where can we empirically demonstrate the source of the other 2 pts for which we presently have no accounting?  (Are you saying that people can pay 2 pts not to have things like velocity and STR bonuses pro-rated?  Show me THAT rule/mechanic, please!)

People are giving comparisons, not the actual breakdown of costs. The actual cost breakdown is provided in my post above, from pg 447 on 6e1.

 

As to what value applying to defenses twice and pro-rating velocity or STR, that would be a judgement call for the player. They are welcome to use eithe rmechanic that they want to. Personally, given the choice I would choose the CSL. Lets take a quick example on cost benefit:

 

Short Sword (1d6 KA) versus Boiled Leather (3 rPD) with 4 PD Target

 

Adding 1d6 KA, 0 End (Cost: 22 RP)

Average roll of 3, 4. Result: 1 Body, 0-7 Stun

Minimum roll of 1,1. Result 0 Body, 0 Stun

Maximum roll of 6, 6. Result 6 Body, 0-22 Stun

 

Weaponmaster (6 CSL for DC, Cost: 24 RP)

Average roll of 7. Result: 4 Body, 0-14 Stun

Minimum roll of 2. Result: 0 Body, 0 Stun

Maximum roll of 12. Result: 9 Body, 0-29 Stun

 

As a player, I can tell you that doing twice as much stun on average, along with 4 times as much body is well worth the 2 points. Plus any STR or velocity that I add to the first option is prorated for the 0 End, I believe? So the second has greater damage potential, greater average damage, better versatility and a higher chance of stunning the target. Mechanically, they are different powers and from an SFX standpoint they appear different to me as well (the first is like hitting them with the short sword twice with one attack roll, the second is hitting them twice as hard or placing the shot at a weak point or the like).

 

As a GM, this is why I have restrictions on Weaponmaster and similar powers.

 

- E

[Hugh Neilson]

Coming back to the question of value, I'm not sure how much I like that build. An unlimited 3, 5 or 8 point skill level can add to OCV, DCV and damage, and sometimes has some other incidental effects (eg. bouncing a ranged weapon). Why is losing all but one function only a -1/2 limitation? Of course, if we make it -1, we just get back to 24 points at the top level without "gotta have a weaoon". Maybe removing 2/3 of the options should save 2/3 of the points...or at least more than half the points.

 

For that matter, why is an 8 point "all combat" level -1/2 if it only applies to weapons? That drops it to only a touch over a 5 point "all HTH weapons" level - for 15 points, I get 3 levels with all HTH weapons, or I can add 1 point and buy "all combat, only with weapons" and also get all those levels with ranged combat? Seems like a steal of a deal.

 

[out of hands...spends some xp]

 

On the third hand, however, 24 points is for all weapons. That means broadwords, greataxes, maces, daggers, bows - even HTH if you remove that "only with a weapon" limitation. 3 point levels with a single weapon. dropping to 2 points to only increase damage, is the same price as levels that only add OCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Oh, and skill levels add DC's, not dice, I believe. DCs do pro rate for advantages, don't they?

[Hyper-Man]

If I recall correctly, bonus DC's from Manuevers or CSL's add normally regardless of Advantages. The exception is Manuevers based on Velocity and extra STR.

 

HM

[eepjr24]

If I recall correctly, bonus DC's from Manuevers or CSL's add normally regardless of Advantages. The exception is Manuevers based on Velocity and extra STR.

 

HM

I thought you were right on that, that is the way I remembered it. But the book says otherwise. 6e2, 102:

Martial Maneuvers, Haymakers, Combat Skill Levels, and velocity add damage at their usual rate — for example +4 DCs for a Haymaker, +1 DC for 2 CSLs, or velocity/6 in DCs. However, since the Advantages affect how you determine the Damage Classes in the attack, these methods have less impact than they would on an un-Advantaged attack. This rule also applies in Heroic campaigns to damage added when a character’s STR exceeds the STR Minimum of a weapon that has Advantages that affect damage.

There is a very detailed chart and some examples. So it looks like it changed in 6e?

 

- E

[Hyper-Man]

You are correct. This is why I pre-figure stuff on the character sheets when possible.

 

HM

[Christopher]

Weapon Master is based on the Pricing for 3, 5 and 8 point CSL.

Wich in turn are based on the pricing for 10 point CSL.

 

And the 10-points-CSL are actually kind of wierd things.

Usually you can disect constructs down to a less specialised constructs. Growth, Shrinking and Density Increase are properly derived from basic characteristics and other powers. This does not work completely with 10 Point CSL.
Weapon Reach is a highly limited form of Stretching.

 

The closest I could ever figure out was that 2 10-point-CSL equate about this Multipower:

10 point Reserve Multipower
2v +2 OCV

2v +2 DCV

1f +1 generic DC, 0 END; 10 AP, 10 Real Cost

Total Cost: 15

(I think I am missing something. Might just be AP issue, where the MP is closer to 11-12 points due to the slots being bigger; accounting for the missing 5 points should be easy)

 

The "generic DC" is the tricky part. Basically CSL can do what no power can do - add damage to any arbitrary attack power. Only Maneuvers can do that normally. I doubt there will be a proper "mathematical proof" for how that cost is valid. We just kind of have to asume it is valid for 10-point-CSL.
Wich in turn makes 3, 5 and 8 point CSL fairly pirced.

Wich in turn makes Weaponmaster fairly priced.

It is a chain of asumptions.

 

 

Furthermore the Talent explicitly mentions it is designed primarily for Heroic Campaigns.

In those games, not spending those points on STR (and Endurance) might be a worthwhile trade.

Moreover it might be impossible to spend enough points on STR to use certain weapons fully. NCM is around 20 STR, wich is +4 DC from STR. If you got a 8 DC weapon, that is barely half the way to the doubling Cap*

And it is explicitly mentioned that Weapon Master does work on Ranged Weapons, wich are usually build with the "Extra STR does not add damage" variant of STR minimum. So Weaponmaster is the only way you can add damage to those weapons at all (aside from Maneuvers or plain CSL; the later might have issues with CV caps).

 

*While the doubling cap was generally removed in 6E, it is part of the "Real Weapon" and "Minimum STR" limitations that are usually applied to Heroic Weapons. And it is a GM option too.

[dmjalund]

think of a combat skill level as a three slot multipower. if the base is 5 points, the multipower costs (5 + 3 = 8) points, so the cost of only on slot is 5/8 = 1 / (1 + 0.6) so approx 1/2 limitation

[Hugh Neilson]

You have to move a step up the chart and add slots for skill rolls - the CSL is derived from the Overall Skill Level as well.

 

Thinking on it, when we apply this to Weaponmaster, it gets weird. Assume I have Multipower of like:

 

60 Pool 60 points

6 m +60 meters flight

6 m +20 PD, +20 ED, Resistant

6 m 12d6 Blast

 

78 points - OK.

 

Then I slap on the limitation "can only use Blast Slot". If a limitation brings me to anything but 60 points, that's rather odd, isn't it? But that is how the "Weaponmaster as CSLs and CSLs as Multiplower" pricing is being computed.

 

Part of that is because the CSL is the only means of buying a floating damage adder, but then the pricing of CSL as a Multipower including that floating damage adder suggests it can be purchase, doesn't it? By RAW, I probably have to buy one slot for each attack I want to augment, but at some point it will be cheaper to buy a Cosmic VPP that only adds DCs to other attacks. "Fair pricing" is not always (or even often) an easy determination.

[Christopher]

You have to move a step up the chart and add slots for skill rolls - the CSL is derived from the Overall Skill Level as well.

 

Thinking on it, when we apply this to Weaponmaster, it gets weird. Assume I have Multipower of like:

 

60 Pool 60 points

6 m +60 meters flight

6 m +20 PD, +20 ED, Resistant

6 m 12d6 Blast

 

78 points - OK.

 

Then I slap on the limitation "can only use Blast Slot". If a limitation brings me to anything but 60 points, that's rather odd, isn't it? But that is how the "Weaponmaster as CSLs and CSLs as Multiplower" pricing is being computed.

 

Part of that is because the CSL is the only means of buying a floating damage adder, but then the pricing of CSL as a Multipower including that floating damage adder suggests it can be purchase, doesn't it? By RAW, I probably have to buy one slot for each attack I want to augment, but at some point it will be cheaper to buy a Cosmic VPP that only adds DCs to other attacks. "Fair pricing" is not always (or even often) an easy determination.

Games in wich you can buy a VPP with Effortless Change are not games you need Weaponmaster in.

You jsut buy the power with however many dice (and however much 0 END) you actually wanted in the first place. Done.

 

Weaponmaster exists solely for Heroic campaigns.

Where NCM Caps and "Does not add damage from STR" drastically reduce how much you can get from STR.

Where equipment (and thus attacks) are bought using money, not points.

Where a CSL or OSL might not be takeable, because it would allow you to exceed campaign limits on CV's or skills (taht you can add it to so many things can actually be kind of a downside).

[Hugh Neilson]

Games in wich you can buy a VPP with Effortless Change are not games you need Weaponmaster in.

You jsut buy the power with however many dice (and however much 0 END) you actually wanted in the first place. Done.

Who said anything about a VPP? I compared the price of a skill level, constructed as a Multipower (which, by the way, IS the basis for the pricing of combat skill levels) to the price of a different Multipower, adding limitations matching those used by Weaponmaster.

 

Weaponmaster exists solely for Heroic campaigns.

In your opinion. And so what - can't a Heroic character buy Limited Skill Levels (eg. "only for DCV") if they can buy them "only for damage" (the Weaponmaster limitation)?

 

Where NCM Caps and "Does not add damage from STR" drastically reduce how much you can get from STR.

Nothing restricts either of these mechanisms to Heroic campaigns. NCM does not "drastically reduce" what can be gained from STR anyway. I can buy +15 STR for 30 points and get +1d6 killing damage with weapons with a STR min (just like +3DC Deadly Blow), albeit not with weapons having "STR does not add". Plus I get unarmed combat damage, extra STR to break objects and entangles, escape Grabs, make a Grab (or other maneuvers - like Disarm on the cheapskate who only paid 24 points to buy Deadly Blow and now has no weapon to use it with), extra lifting capability and lower encumbrance penalties, if we're using encumbrance rules.

 

NCM does not say "can't have it" - it says "costs more".

 

I can, of course, play Samson and take my extra STR "Not if lets hair be cut, -0". NCM does not double the cost of Limited characteristics - they are Powers. Or I can find some nebulous -1/4 limitation like, say, "does not increase carrying capacity" - now I can buy +30 STR for 24 points, and add 6 DCs.

 

Where a CSL or OSL might not be takeable, because it would allow you to exceed campaign limits on CV's or skills (taht you can add it to so many things can actually be kind of a downside).

Any game can have limits - a DC limit may preclude Deadly Blow.

 

And nothing in that VPP lets me buy +1d6 Killing Damage, Adds to my Bow.

 

Maybe my Hawkeye or Green Arrow Superhero wants to buy Weaponmaster with his Bow because some of the damage is done by the bow, and any sucker can get that damage, but only a character with my deadly aim can get the campaign DC max out of this ordinary bow and arrow!

[Christopher]

Once again I can not tell what you are trying to say, because you wrote too much on your "sentence by sentence disection quest". And then you have a ton of "maybe" and "perhaps" in your post too.

Maybe my green is actualyl blue for you? I can not say, because you did not gave any concrete examples.

 

Here is what I said and you disagred with:

"Weaponmaster exists solely for Heroic campaigns.

Where NCM Caps and "Does not add damage from STR" drastically reduce how much you can get from STR.

Where equipment (and thus attacks) are bought using money, not points.

Where a CSL or OSL might not be takeable, because it would allow you to exceed campaign limits on CV's or skills (taht you can add it to so many things can actually be kind of a downside)."

 

1. Do you have common examples for Weaponmaster outside of one of the Heroic Settings? If so, please provide them.

If not, your disagreement is moot.

 

2. 15 STR past NCM, 0 END (+1/2) costs 45 AP, not 30 by the way. And as we already establish in heroic games Endurance Costs do mater quite a bit too. To the point where most weapons exceed any AP cap just to include 0 END (+1/2).

 

3. That equipment is bought using money also means they can have very different DC values from the campaign limits. Just look at all the example weapons in 6E2 or Fantasy hero and show me 5 that can not be maxed out using 25-30 STR (anything more is plain unfeasibly expensive in a Heroic Game, wich is the game using NCM's). Or show me 5 whose DC is beyond the official campaign limit.

You got your pick of those weapons.

 

If you want to say NCM are used outside of heroic games, please show examples.

[Hugh Neilson]

Once again I can not tell what you are trying to say, because you wrote too much on your "sentence by sentence disection quest". And then you have a ton of "maybe" and "perhaps" in your post too.

I will respectfully suggest it is just as likely your own reading comprehension is frustrating your understanding as that my writing style frustrates it. The reality is probably that both contribute. ‘nuff said on that issue.

 

Maybe my green is actualyl blue for you? I can not say, because you did not gave any concrete examples.

I think Green Arrow and Hawkeye were pretty specific examples of the superheroic Weapon Master archetype that might reasonable use the Weapon Master talent build. I find most superheroes that seem like concrete are Bricks, for whom the talent would be less relevant (Ben Grimm comes to mind, although he is more rock than concrete ).

 

Here is what I said and you disagred with:

"Weaponmaster exists solely for Heroic campaigns.

Yes, I am going to parse this out. Show me where the rules say “you cannot use this in a Superheroic game”. I could say Combat Luck is similarly intended for heroic games, but I see it used in many Superheroic builds. Hero is a game of mechanics to which special effects are applied. These talents are all example mechanical builds usable for many special effects in a variety of games, genres and scenarios.

 

Where NCM Caps and "Does not add damage from STR" drastically reduce how much you can get from STR.

Where equipment (and thus attacks) are bought using money, not points.

Someone elsewhere noted that this same construct could reasonably be used to add damage to all of a spellcaster’s spells. The logic underpinning the mechanics of this specific build is, and should be, applicable to other builds simulating a special effect with similar or identical mechanics.

 

The fact that NCM is not in play does not mean a specific character concept might suggest limiting the character to normal characteristics, nor that a character might not be able to inflict extra damage due to his extraordinary skill, damage which someone else grabbing his focus could not duplicate. That bow should still do some damage when Katana or Black Widow picks it up, but neither has the deadly accurate aim of Green Arrow or Hawkeye, so they are not as effective damaging a target. Weapon Master seems an excellent mechanic to implement that concept.

 

Where a CSL or OSL might not be takeable, because it would allow you to exceed campaign limits on CV's or skills (taht you can add it to so many things can actually be kind of a downside)."

In my experience, games with CV and skill limits also have DC and defense limits. All of these set the guidelines for any given game. The fact that there are limits does not change the appropriate mechanics or costs by which one should purchase CV or damage. What limitation would you permit “Olaf the Strong”, whose great physical might has him at the campaign DC limits, on a couple of combat skill levels he cannot use to add damage, for fear of violating the campaign caps? I suggest the price of his skill levels, plus the price of the same number of skill levels “only to add damage” is appropriately equal to the price of the same number of unlimited skill levels, as that is what they sum up to.

 

15 STR past NCM, 0 END (+1/2) costs 45 AP, not 30 by the way. And as we already establish in heroic games Endurance Costs do mater quite a bit too. To the point where most weapons exceed any AP cap just to include 0 END (+1/2).

By RAW, this is a power, not a characteristic, and is not subject to NCM doubling. Of course, NCM doubling is an optional rule, so can certainly be extended. By the way, I recall a few discussions on AP which, in the SETAC days, were cut off by Steve Long because there is no rule providing for an AP cap in the Hero system. Can you cite a rule for an AP cap, rather than a CV, DC, defense, etc., cap in the 6e Hero system rules?

 

3. That equipment is bought using money also means they can have very different DC values from the campaign limits. Just look at all the example weapons in 6E2 or Fantasy hero and show me 5 that can not be maxed out using 25-30 STR (anything more is plain unfeasibly expensive in a Heroic Game, wich is the game using NCM's). Or show me 5 whose DC is beyond the official campaign limit.

This assumes the “double damage is the maximum” optional rule is in play. Doesn’t that rule also apply to added damage from skill levels, the mechanic with which Weaponmaster is constructed? Can you cite a rules quote that says “Weapon Master explicitly allows circumvention of the optional “damage caps at twice base weapon damage” rule”?

As to your many requests for cites and examples, I suggest it is equally valid for me to ask you to point to a published statement in a Hero product that supports your view on the restriction of an ability or rule to a specific type of game. The rules are intended for all genres. This is a Hero System Rules discussion, not a "genre normally in Heroic rules" discussion, based on the board we are posting on. So I find no reason the mechanic itself - a skill level restricted to adding damage - would logically be limited to Heroic rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

A thought which occurred from another thread - why is Weaponmaster so different from a Martial Arts DC? Both add 1 DC to a group of attacks. If we apply the Weaponmaster build, an MA DC should be 2 skill levels with Martial Arts, only to add DCs, so 10/1.5 or 16/1.5 for all HTH (martial or not, with or without a weapon). That's quite a price hike over the present 4 points per DC pricing. IMO, this simply shows that getting damage, but not OCV or DCV, removes a lot more than 1/3 of the benefits of a skill level.

[Hyper-Man]

It's arguable that Martial Damage Classes get a discount due to the requirement to actually purchase a minimum number of Martial Maneuvers & the requirement to be used with one of those maneuvers.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

While I see the case for a discount for the requirement to have previously purchased a minimum number of martial maneuvers, I don't see that as a hugely onerous requirement. I don't think "must have at least 10 points of martial maneuvers" is worth -1 1/2, which is the required limitation to drop the cost of 2 5 point levels to 4 points. Perhaps it suggests that "Levels cannot grant OCV or DCV" is a much higher limitation than the -1/2 used in pricing Weapon Master.

 

I do not think "only with martial maneuvers" is a relevant limitation for a 5 point skill level with Martial Arts any more than I think a 3 point skill level with daggers should be limited to "only with daggers". The skill level is already a choice of OCV, DCV or DC enhancement, "only with" certain types of combat to reduce it from a 10 point "all combat" level.

 

I suggest, rather, that Martial Arts DCs were not designed with the same rigour of "how would I buy this using other game elements" that Weapon Master was. This is an issue which has cropped up before. From 1e Champions, we had Drain and Transfer, but not Aid. When Fantasy Hero came along, we clearly needed Aid, as this is a much more common Fantasy element than in Supers, so Aid developed. 4th Ed gave us a design with Aid, Drain and Transfer. 5e gave us the same, but added lots of rulings that made the disparity between the cost of various permutations of Transfer widely different from the cost of Linking a Drain and an Aid. 6e did away with that by making Transfer a compound power of Aid and Drain. If we had Aid and Drain from the outset, we probably would never have had a Transfer power.

 

An even more basic example is resistant defenses. In 1e, we had Force Field (+1 rPD or rED, costs END, for 1 point per), Armor (3 rPD or rED for 5 points, costing no END) and Damage Resistance (half your defenses are resistant for 15 points, or they all are for 30 points). By 4th Ed, we had Armor and Damage Resistance priced identically, at 1.5 points for 1 rDEF, and Force Field as a separate power that did the same thing, but cost END. Then we had lots of discussions on why Invisible, 0 END Force Fields cost way more than Armor or rDEF.

 

BTW, there was a request for examples where Weapon Master or a similar construct would fit a Super. I suggest it fits every Super whose damage is a function of, or enhanced by, skill. How about:

 

- every martial artist, based on the above;

 

- Green Arrow and Hawkeye, noted previously;

 

- every other weapon-using character, like Batman (why don't thugs throw Batarangs back at him?), Punisher (he's good enough with guns to hurt Supers who typically bounce bullets), Zaran the Weapon Master (he even put the archetype/talent in his name!), Swordsman, Captain America (again, his enemies can't use the shield with remotely comparable effectiveness), probably Black Widow - why not even Green Lantern (aren't they all issued the same ring? more damage requires more skill) - I will note that similar skill with powers and weapons is a reason we got Ranged Martial Arts.

 

I think that should be sufficient examples to show that the talent is not inappropriate for a Supers game.