Follow-Through Attack

[bigdamnhero]

FH has a custom Talent called Follow-Through Attack (FH6 p139, FHC p47), which models the D&D Feat that when you kill an opponent in melee, you can exploit that opening to get a free attack against the guy behind him. It's built as a Naked Trigger for HKA, Triggered "when character kills an opponent in battle with an HKA weapon." Costs 20 points at its default level.

 

My question is: given that outright killing other characters is somewhat less common in Hero than in most fantasy systems (certainly compared to D&D) and characters often go unconscious before they get chopped down to -X BODY, would you let this Trigger work when the character KOs or otherwise takes someone out of the fight even if they're "not dead yet?" And would this change the value of the Talent?

[akrippler]

I have to agree with you first, rarely do people actually outright die during fights in fantasy hero.  Last night was the first time and it was only because of a lucky headshot on an unaware opponent, followed by a lucky damage roll, even then he BARELY reached the -12 body he was aiming for.  

 

This one I feel has to be modeled for letting you gain follow through attacks when knocking people unconscious at the very least.  Its incredibly expensive even for the lax interpretation I have of it.  For it to only work when someone drops to -X body would be an added limitation of a ridiculous proportion like -2 or something imo. 

[Nolgroth]

I think this power is intended for mooks with low Body scores, defined as "1 hit, 1 kill" opponents, or if using the Stunned Equals Dead rule. It is certainly a more cinematic ability that lends itself to over the top gameplay. I would add that unimportant NPCs don't get that extra 10 Body cushion between Unconscious and Dead. They hit 0 Body and hasta la pasta for them. Combine these to make mooks dangerous, but easy to mow down.

 

Example: Moria Orc (stats are Average Human unless noted)

 

Str 16

Body 6

OCV 4

DCV 4

 

Brigandine Armor (4 rPD, 4 rED)

Scimitar (1 1/2d6 Killing w/Str)

Short Bow (1d6+1 Ranged Killing, 20 Arrows (charges))

 

 

For your average adventuring warrior, this guy should be a piece of cake to take out. If you were to use a 1 Hit/1Kill ratio, then ignore his Body and make it 1. That is literally all that needs to happen. In that case, his armor is effectively decoration and the warrior could cleave this pathetic excuse for a bad guy down without a second thought. This is great to simulate tons of mooks that are potentially dangerous but easily dispatched. See the battle of Amon Hen in Fellowship of the Ring. 

 

If you use the Stunned Equals Dead, this guy has 10 Con. That is almost a certainty in most combats but does throw enough variety in their to make it interesting. Also good for mook hordes.

 

The toughest that this guy gets is to take him at Hero face value, but rule that at 0 Body, he is dead. Let's take a typical Fantasy Ranger from the North (okay, being a bit cheeky there but hey). He is carrying, at this point, a bastard sword and has enough Strength and CSLs to double the base damage up to 3d6. On an average roll, we can assume that is 10-11 points of damage. Hero itself uses 11 as the middle ground on a 3d6 roll, so there you have it. On an average roll, TRftN is going to kill the Orc.

 

That triggers his Follow Through Attack, allowing him to cinematically smack the next one in line. The base FTA only allows one additional victim to be Ginsu'ed, but assuming you bought the Trigger with an Instant Reset, then bammo, you get Amon Hen all over again.

 

Disclaimer: Lord of the Rings is used as a common reference to explain. You may not have orcs, Rangers from the North, Amon Hen, Moria or all that in your game. 

[NuSoardGraphite]

Also keep in mind that "dead" for this purpose should mean "effectively dead" meaning the character is dying and out of the fight. For unimportant enemies, I would assume that taking them to 0 Body or below makes them "effectively dead" for purposes of talents like this and for taking them out of the combat.

[bigdamnhero]

Yes, I use mook rules too.

 

Also keep in mind that "dead" for this purpose should mean "effectively dead" meaning the character is dying and out of the fight.

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to articulate - thanks!

[Hadmar von Wieser]

Let's look at the logic behind the SFX:
Why can you attack a guy for free when the guy in front of him dies?

Surprise, I'd say, is the obvious explanation. Foe #2 believes to be in safe distance and suddenly finds he isn't.
So the actual trigger is not "Foe #1 dies" but "Foe #1 falls down shockingly fast creating an opening for the attacker".
Following that logic the first opponent does not have to be dead, he does not even have to be mortally wounded; the deciding element is he is so fast and brutally out of the fight that his partner is shocked and does not react to loosing his cover.

That somehow reminds me of the infamous Jack Reacher bathroom fight scene where Reacher takes one guy to knock out the other one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE0oDPBslUs

[Hadmar von Wieser]

On the other hand it could be an effect of "life force".
The Character snuffs out the first foes living lights, gaining Mana (in the original mythological sense of life force by success), which makes him even stronger and faster. Especially compared to a foe similar to the one just vanquished.

That sounds a bit far-fetched to me. But of course you could build a fantasy world around this.
"The force is strong with this one."
"Necromancy and biomancy just are two sides of the same mystery."
"Those experience quantum particles come running so fast he just breaks through nature's laws."
"The gods favor the strong ones."

They ancient greek had a strange concept called Pneuma (magic breath): The gods created mankind by breathing their breath into them. Heroes are so strong because their hero's chest can contain more Pneuma. So Achilles and Hercules can slay mere mortals by the score just because they breathe more divinely.

From that idea it is not so far to the concept: I inhale my fallen foes divine breath, gaining strength, and being able to storm on, windlike, to slay the next small-breasted weakling.

[Armitage]

I think this power is intended for mooks with low Body scores, defined as "1 hit, 1 kill" opponents, or if using the Stunned Equals Dead rule. It is certainly a more cinematic ability that lends itself to over the top gameplay. I would add that unimportant NPCs don't get that extra 10 Body cushion between Unconscious and Dead. They hit 0 Body and hasta la pasta for them. Combine these to make mooks dangerous, but easy to mow down.

 

 

 

 

Agreed.  Follow-Through Attack traces back to D&D's Cleave and Great Cleave, which trace back in turn to the earlier edition ability of a fighter to make one attack per round per level when fighting opponents with less than 1 Hit Die.  A 1e AD&D 10th level fighter could make 10 attacks per round when wading though hordes of goblins or kobolds.

[bigdamnhero]

That's not what this Talent does, in FH or in D&D. It has nothing to do with how many Hit Points/BODY/Whatever the opponent has. The point is that whether it takes 1 blow or 10, when you drop an opponent you can exploit that to attack the guy behind/next to him. It's not about mook rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Agreed.  Follow-Through Attack traces back to D&D's Cleave and Great Cleave, which trace back in turn to the earlier edition ability of a fighter to make one attack per round per level when fighting opponents with less than 1 Hit Die.  A 1e AD&D 10th level fighter could make 10 attacks per round when wading though hordes of goblins or kobolds.

 

Wasn't a 1e AD&D "Round" 1 minute long as well?

 

HM

[Lucius]

Wasn't a 1e AD&D "Round" 1 minute long as well?

 

HM

Wait a minute....

 

 

yes. Yes it was.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says what goes a round, comes a round.

[Christopher R Taylor]

This came up before (cleave topic, couple pages back) and I think the general consensus was "target drops" works fine rather than "target killed" so unconscious or dead for the exact reason you list.

[Doc Democracy]

Just glancing at this again and it seems to me that it is a limited form of auto fire. You get multiple attacks, only if you keep dropping opponents. Will have to go to books to think about an exact build, but I could see the fighter having the ability to hit, then hit again and possibly even again.

[bigdamnhero]

Hmm...Seems like building it as Autofire leads to other complications. As built currently, it's more of a Multiple Attack with it's own separate attack roll, you don't have to worry about skipover rules and all that. Not saying Autofire would be wrongbad, but it would be a very different effect.

 

Personally I'm happy with the current build (Naked Trigger for HKA). It's certainly not overpowered at 20 points.