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Did I cheat?


Jkeown

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I have all of my player's character sheets (thanks, HERO Designer!). So I know their CHA by heart. This past Saturday, one of them was attacked by a Mentalist who scored +30 on her Mental Illusions Roll (rolled pre-game, mind you). I said nothing about an attack, just played another hour or two of the game getting input from other players as if nothing weird was going on. After the Player revealed their safe house and many important and terrible things had been done over the course of 2 Illusionary hours, he snapped out of it with help from another player (1 Phase later in game time).

 

Then they learned he'd been under the influence the whole time. The bad guys beat them back to the safe house, nearly killed some campaign NPCs and made off with Arachne's Tapestry and the Important Mysterious Female NPC.

 

I think I did okay, but the pre-rolling feels dishonest. Hearing 18 dice hit the table really clues a bunch of PCs to the notion that bad doin's are afoot.  

 

Your thoughts?

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If you are the GM, than you did not "cheat". What you say goes.

Although personally I wouldn't "roll" an attack pre-game because it's bad form. Instead I might use the standard effect rules to determine the result of such an attack, or determine its effect arbitrarily. If my story needs something to happen, I'm not about to let a die roll determine it's success or failure, it just happens. That being said, I wont do things arbitrarily that punish the players, because that wouldn't be fun, and the goal is to have fun, not kill the players.

 

Hearing 18 dice hit the table can be a cue to players, but if you are worried about that, there are phone apps which can roll dice silently. I even found one that rolls HERO Effect rolls (it can calculate Normal Damage BODY, STUN Multiplier, and everything). However my preferred tactic is to just play with my dice occasionally, meaning that I will roll them for no reason. Sometimes I will also roll dice and then ignore the results if I feel like chance is swinging too hard in the NPCs favor.

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Did you tell the players that you pre-rolled most of your rolls? Did you establish a rule for yourself and follow it? If you answered yes to both questions, then you didn't cheat and it's not bad form. As the GM, I used to pre-roll everything I could before the game started. It was a known technique that I told the players about and I crossed off each roll as it happened, left to right, top to bottom. If any of the players ever felt that my integrity was in question, I would pull the current "roll sheet" out and provide it for them to inspect.  The net result? My games tended to go faster because, I, as the GM, could quickly reference a sheet of pre-rolled results and move on. In this day and age of modern computers, I would actually print out my "roll sheet" for the week and provide it to the players so that they could follow along at anytime. I would also use a random die roller to knock out the brute work part of rolling all those dice. I might even use a random die roller to assign rolls to specific NPCs (Gorogash the Orc Captain) or groups of NPCs (Orc Warriors). That way I can tick off rolls for each character. No reason to do that other than even quicker reference as I hold that particular stat sheet in my hand.

 

The trick is, you either need to pick the pre-roll method or the dice at the table method and stick with it. My rule, established with my players, is that I would use the roll sheet until exhaustion and then switch to physical dice. It's all really a trust thing. If you are impartial and allow the players to see that, like rolling dice in front of you, the results are the results, they will learn to trust that method. If the game is coincidentally sped up because of it, they will not only trust that method, they will thank you.

 

Disclaimer: This was typically for an AD&D 2nd Edition game and I would roll out 100 d20 rolls and 50 of each of the other dice or common dice totals (2d6, 2d4, etc.). I have never done this for Hero, as I used MapTool for the largest of my Hero game mastery.

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This was my first time trying this method. In the past, I'd roll to hit OMCV, Roll Effect, describe the new situation and the players would be looking for ways out of the Images, Mental Illusions, what-have-you. No longer. Now I'm going to play smarter. I'm kinda tired of being argued with by a few difficult players.

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This was my first time trying this method. In the past, I'd roll to hit OMCV, Roll Effect, describe the new situation and the players would be looking for ways out of the Images, Mental Illusions, what-have-you. No longer. Now I'm going to play smarter. I'm kinda tired of being argued with by a few difficult players.

It doesn't matter if this was your first time using this method as much as it matters if they understood you were using and were okay with this method.

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It doesn't matter if this was your first time using this method as much as it matters if they understood you were using and were okay with this method.

Good point. I think they enjoyed it. At least, when it was revealed (rather nicely) they didn't call me on it. I think they realized what had happened, adjusted their thinking quickly and moved on to damage control. They want revenge, and this Saturday, they get it, they'll have to break into the bad guy's secure point and take it out on them. Not me. That's how it should work, methinks.

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I cheated big time using the Black Enchantress while running through the Coriolis Effect adventure. I simply ruled the illusions beyond the power of the players to resist. They had two windows to avoid the end encounter before it became inevitable. They found one, then closed it (deliberately but without thinking through the consequences).

 

It turned out to be the best haunted house game we ever played and the inevitability of the final encounter brought home the horror aspect.

 

It was done for good narrative reasons and in a consistent manner within the session. The players appreciated it as the dice rolling would have broken the flow and made it more superhero and less horror.

 

Doc

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Did the players have a good time?  Did it add to the story?  Did anyone feel railroaded (well probably a bit but heck mental powers can have that affect)?

 

If the answers were Yes!  Yes! No/Not really.  No problem.

This. It's not cheating if everyone enjoys themselves.

 

I maintain a list of ~10 pre-rolls for each player that I can use either for bluebooking between sessions or when I don't want to tip them off that a roll is needed (PER Rolls typically). Since the players made the rolls themselves and trust me to use them fairly, it's never been an issue. I have occasionally pre-rolled a few of "my" rolls, but more just to speed things along than anything else. Bottom line: either your players trust you or they don't - if they don't, then a few pre-rolls is the least of your concerns.

 

The only piece I might question, if I understand you correctly, is that your had 2 hours pass "inside" the illusion while only a Phase passed in reality? How many Breakout Rolls did the characters get during this time? If they made 2 subjective hours' worth of actions & talking but only got 1 Phase's worth of Breakout Rolls, I might have an issue with that. (Did you pre-roll their Breakout Rolls as well, or have them make them at the table?)

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Yeah, I have a tendency to roll lots of dice if the players are ever standing around arguing about what to do or just not doing anything at all. Or sometimes just for no reason at all. =)

 

- E

 

This!

 

This, ten thousand times!

 

This, much like throw-away bits and pieces of random information regarding the universe around the characters, is one of the _best_ things I've ever adopted to ensure the game flows well and have a natural feel. As noted above, when _players_ hear dice, suddenly _characters_ know things they should not, or do things that make no sense:

 

[sound of dice]

 

Okay, I'm going to stop my routine 2km jog this morning for absolutely no good reason and starting looking around, making sure to check all the tree tops and underneath that mailbox on the corner!

 

What?!

 

You see what I mean?

 

Many, many years ago, I developed the habit of randomly rolling dice. Sometimes it's related to off-screen things; sometimes it's related to this moment right now, and sometimes it's just because I want to roll some dice.

 

It takes a few sessions, but the players eventually get over it, and become desensitized to dice rolling. The key is sticking with it, and of course, explaining to them up front that you're doing it because you're tired of the sound of dice wrecking the "role" part of role playing.

 

 

 

I used to pre-roll everything I could before the game started. It was a known technique that I told the players about and I crossed off each roll as it happened, left to right, top to bottom. If any of the players ever felt that my integrity was in question, I would pull the current "roll sheet" out and provide it for them to inspect.  The net result? My games tended to go faster

I have always wanted this to work for my groups. :(

 

I first encountered the idea in an old gaming magazine-- Dragon, perhaps? Too many years; I don't remember which one. :(

 

 

I've tried it many times over the years, usually with fresh heart when another GM tells me about how well it works for him.

 

Alas, for reasons I don't understand, I've only had success in one group, and that was a couple of decades ago. What usually happens to me is that there is _one_ player who routinely bogs the game down with claims of foul play and demands to re-examine the list every time something doesn't go the way he envisions it.

 

And when that's not the case, there's the player who came up with something unusual or unique (even with whatever bonuses I assign him; I'm not so heartless that I don't bonus creativity) and it blows up in his face.

 

The end result was that gameplay didn't speed up, and enjoyment went down.

 

But I keep hoping. I swear, I keep hoping....

 

:D

 

 

Duke

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That was no more "cheating" than using a GM's screen to keep nosy players from looking over to see how well or badly you rolled.

The only dishonest thing would be if you skipped over low numbers to get high ones.

A good GM can be Evil but they must be Lawfull Evil.

 

"To live outside the law-You have to be honest". Bob Dylan

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That was no more "cheating" than using a GM's screen to keep nosy players from looking over to see how well or badly you rolled.

Exactly. If I want to cheat there's not much they can do to stop me. Except to vote with their feet of course.

 

I think it depends whether your group sees the GM as competing against the Players Gygax-style, or as working with the Players to create the most fun experience for everyone. I'm fortunate that my group is on board with the latter approach. (Adversarial-style GMing never made sense to me anyway - it's not like killing PCs is a real challenge when you have infinite character points at your disposal...)

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From my meager GM experience, I have tended to be a bit merciless letting the die roll be the guide, rather than think of a way to let players off the hook (within some reason, and I would hopefully have given as much info as possible, and I don't believe in killing the PCs left and right, but on either side my belief it is the PC who bears the most responsibility to think their way out). 

 

THough, I don't really like the idea of pre-rolling, would feel like I was (or inadvertently would) shoehorn them into a scenario.  ON either side of the argument, I prefer PCs getting the chance to be creative. 

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Exactly. If I want to cheat there's not much they can do to stop me. Except to vote with their feet of course.

 

I think it depends whether your group sees the GM as competing against the Players Gygax-style, or as working with the Players to create the most fun experience for everyone. I'm fortunate that my group is on board with the latter approach. (Adversarial-style GMing never made sense to me anyway - it's not like killing PCs is a real challenge when you have infinite character points at your disposal...)

 

Well, (again my meager experience) my desire is to try to be the impartial ref, as much as possible. So, I'd probably fall in the middle.

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Adversarial-style GMing never made sense to me anyway - it's not like killing PCs is a real challenge when you have infinite character points at your disposal...

The keys to making Adversarial GMing work are:

1. Follow the rules as exactly as possible, never fudge rolls, only house-rule when necessary.

2. Set harsher guidelines for yourself than for your players.  For Example, in Pathfinder you might generally restrict yourself to encounters with equal or lower challenge ratings than the average party level.

3. Don't coddle the players during the Game, don't give them advice or information they didn't earn with a skill check unless it is obvious or common knowledge to everyone.

4. Only act like an adversarial GM during the game. Outside of game give them all of the information and advice they want and need. Be as helpful as you would be if your own child were stuck or stumped by a videogame you have already beaten.

5. Never, ever lie to your players, or give them bad advice on purpose. I can't stress this part enough. Your players should be able to trust you aren't out to get them personally. Nothing ruins that trust faster than telling a player "sure build an undead hunter, they will be fairly common in this campaign", and then purposefully not including any undead in your encounter designs, or "that OAF will hardly ever come up, it is totally worth the points!", and then giving nearly every enemy a good grab or disarm.

 

Personally, I don't do adversarial GMing very much, but I like to pretend that I do. Like joking to the players of two dwarves the night before the game that "they better rest up, because I've got dwarves to kill in the morning." (I said this no less than eight times, and those darn dwarves never died).

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Did you tell the players that you pre-rolled most of your rolls? Did you establish a rule for yourself and follow it? If you answered yes to both questions, then you didn't cheat and it's not bad form. As the GM, I used to pre-roll everything I could before the game started. It was a known technique that I told the players about and I crossed off each roll as it happened, left to right, top to bottom. If any of the players ever felt that my integrity was in question, I would pull the current "roll sheet" out and provide it for them to inspect.  The net result? My games tended to go faster because, I, as the GM, could quickly reference a sheet of pre-rolled results and move on. In this day and age of modern computers, I would actually print out my "roll sheet" for the week and provide it to the players so that they could follow along at anytime. I would also use a random die roller to knock out the brute work part of rolling all those dice. I might even use a random die roller to assign rolls to specific NPCs (Gorogash the Orc Captain) or groups of NPCs (Orc Warriors). That way I can tick off rolls for each character. No reason to do that other than even quicker reference as I hold that particular stat sheet in my hand.

 

The trick is, you either need to pick the pre-roll method or the dice at the table method and stick with it. My rule, established with my players, is that I would use the roll sheet until exhaustion and then switch to physical dice. It's all really a trust thing. If you are impartial and allow the players to see that, like rolling dice in front of you, the results are the results, they will learn to trust that method. If the game is coincidentally sped up because of it, they will not only trust that method, they will thank you.

 

Disclaimer: This was typically for an AD&D 2nd Edition game and I would roll out 100 d20 rolls and 50 of each of the other dice or common dice totals (2d6, 2d4, etc.). I have never done this for Hero, as I used MapTool for the largest of my Hero game mastery.

I love this idea. Especially because it may contribute to my story planning. If I know that, if this crucial roll happens, the enemy fails in a way that would reveal something, I can then be prepared with more story options and angles created by the failures of my npc's, not just the successes.

 

Cannot like this enough!

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Duke Bushido,

 

I always let the players roll their own dice in the moment. I only pre-roll my own rolls.

 

Same here.

 

I was referring to those "This guy doesn't know I've got an Indirect attack; I've never used it on him!" Certainly, as GM, I assign a bonus for what should be a surprise to the villain. However, the "4" on the next pre-roll indicates that even with the bonus, he manages to dodge...

 

That sort of thing.

 

 

Regarding the earnest attempt getting ruined, rolling the dice can still lead to that same failure. I blame binary Success/Fail mechanics as much as anything.

Agreed, except that I don't look at it as a necessarily bad thing. Even the best professional baseball pitcher can flub a few throws. That's why they have replacements waiting in the dugout.

 

Now before anyone thinks otherwise, I have no problems with ignoring a roll completely for players who have done something really creative or who have actually come up with something surprisingly ingenious:

 

I've shot at him twice, and he's dodging it like we're just dancing out here. I want to shoot _past_ him, like I'm shooting at him, but I want to hit the airlock controls behind him.

 

Okay, roll 'em. [i've calculated that this particular character really needs a 6 to pull this off]

 

Eight! Did I get the controls?

 

[i throw some dice just so the player can hear me throwing dice ;) ]

No, [or maybe yes, depending on what's been going on thus far in the scene], but you managed to tag dead-center of the view port in the airlock door. Your AP round holes it, cleanly, and continues through to crack the viewport in the outer door. Chucks of crystalline quartz fall from the inner view port, and there's the sickening electrical snapping and popping sound as cracks begin to spider through the outer viewport. Your opponent snaps a peak over his shoulder and starts running.

 

 

That sort of thing.

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I don't throw dice at all until it comes up time (run out of pre-rolls or some very specific exception comes up). The whole point of pre-rolling is to not have to take that time.  Here is an example from an actual game.

 

Scenario: The characters are trying to cross a Khazad-dum like bridge, only instead of a long dark fall, there is a very tangible lava flow below the bridge. As they attempt to cross, orcs on the other side emerged from the shadows and begin attacking. Our example takes place after one whole round has passed. The PCs have retreated back and spread out along the edge of the crevasse so that they can take out the orcs with missile attacks and, surprisingly, have already thinned the numbers of the ambushers by a fairly large amount (a Scroll of Fireballs cast by the wizard). The only one left standing on the bridge is the stalwart warrior of the group. The current initiative is in the hands of an archer PC but the very next initiative is the Orc Leader.

 

I take a quick look at the next Attack roll, which is a 1. My group used "1=fumble, 20=critical" rules back then and realized that the treacherous footing of the narrow bridge would play against both sides. So while I was helping the archer resolve his attack, I looked over and saw that the next d20 roll was a 19. I can't remember if it was official or not, but the way we resolved ability checks was to roll under the ability. So the subsequent Dexterity check to catch himself was an utter failure. The archer was rolling damage when I looked at what a morale check would result in (as it turns out, the orcs will fail their morale check). So the archer lets loose with his arrow, successfully hit an orc, and rolled enough damage to kill it. Knowing what I am about to do, I have the orc tumble back into the throng of orcs on the other side.

 

I then describe the Orc Leader's attack as follows; "the great Orc on the bridge bellows out a mighty roar and swings his wicked sword with a mighty two-handed swing at <fighter's name>! Instinctively, <fighter> ducks a blow that would probably have severed his head, causing the mighty Orc to over-balance himself and tumble off of the bridge and into the fiery river below. The rest of the Orc band stop their hooting and shouting for about three seconds and then flee back into the cracks and wholes from whence they came."  [Carefully scratch off the 1, 19, and the morale dice (I can't remember the actual dice now but you get the picture).]

 

Had the next d20 roll been the 19 (instead of the 1), the fighter character would probably be dead. He was down to 4 hit points and the next damage from the Orc leader's weapon would have been a base of 8 plus whatever Strength bonuses he had. That also allowed me to drive home how powerful the attack was and that there would have been severe consequences for the fighter had the Orc connected.

 

I remember this specific instance because my players specifically asked me why the Orc leader* fell and accused me of rigging the battle. This was the encounter that sold them on this method, as I related to them exactly how I used the rolls on the pre-roll sheet to create a narrative battle instead of a mechanical construct. A couple of players even wanted to pre-roll their own rolls for the same reason. There were a couple of guys that wanted to keep the dice rolls "real" and in the moment. We settled on a table rule that allowed everybody at the table to be happy with the method that was chosen for them. We had lots of fun. That's not to say that rolling in the moment was also not fun, but for me, the few precious seconds leading up to the next initiative block really allowed me the time to craft the best narrative experience that I could.

 

 

* They thought I had the Orc leader drop into the lava so that they would be deprived of the "obvious treasure" reward that the lead Orc would certainly have. While that did happen, there was no intention to do so. Their initial accusations made me realize that, while the toughest of the baddies probably had the most treasure, there might be little bits that the lesser members of an enemy group would manage to hide. So that discussion helped me out in other ways too.

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I don't throw dice at all until it comes up time (run out of pre-rolls or some very specific exception comes up). The whole point of pre-rolling is to not have to take that time.

My apologies; the confusion is my fault. The example I posted (the fight in front of the airlock) was an actual example lifted whole-cloth from our other sic-fi campaign: the spaceships one. (sadly, the more popular one) It wasn't meant as "I stopped using the pre-rolls and rolled some random dice," as currently _none_ of my groups like pre-rolls (and explained earlier) even though I think it's a great idea. :( . The example above was a demonstration of "I'm willing to fudge / completely ignore a die roll based on the creativity of the character's plan. In the case above, I decided to just ignore the roll (and rolled dice anyway, for several reasons, as noted in earlier posts in this thread) I rolled the dice anyway, just to see if her plan went exactly as she had planned. The roll (don't remember exactly what it was, but it was awful. If I had doubled the bonus, it would have missed) failed, but the idea was novel enough that I decided it _sort of_ worked, so when she missed, her "missed" shot "accidentally" went somewhere that closely approximated the results she was after.

 

 

Looking back, I probably should have explained that up-front. Me culpa.

 

 

the few precious seconds leading up to the next initiative block really allowed me the time to craft the best narrative experience that I could.

And that, Sir, is _precisely_ why I want so badly for my own players to appreciate it. I think most of them would, but it only takes on vocal doubter to get everyone else worried about it. :( 

 

 

* They thought I had the Orc leader drop into the lava so that they would be deprived of the "obvious treasure" reward that the lead Orc would certainly have.

 

I've never really gotten that aspect of D&D. While I accept that the idea of "kill them and rifle their pockets" is how you become better heroes, or adventurers, or what-have-you in D&D, I've never understood why they always have the stuff on them, and why there's more of it for tougher opponents, period.

 

The Orc was in battle, wielding a cumbersome weapon on a treacherous crossing over a flow of lava. Why would he, for any possible reason that makes good sense, stop to shove a couple of treasure chests into his hip pocket before heading off to the fray?

 

It flummoxes me. Every time it flummoxes me.

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It flummoxes me. Every time it flummoxes me.

 

Me too. Now to be fair, they were thinking magic sword or something like that. As I said, he did have magic treasure (potions of healing) but they were thinking bigger/more permanent and that's where they felt abused. I simply refused to change my Modus Operandi and invited anybody who felt that they couldn't trust* me to exit the game. It was a close call, I will be honest. I thought I was going to drive off the players, but instead they decided to give it a chance and found out that I was being fair and letting things fall where they might. We were experimenting a lot back then. A group of established players with established expectations might have ended with different results.

 

 

*I have this big issue with distrust at the game table. If you cannot trust me to be a fair, impartial GM, then don't put that responsibility upon me. I've told you, by that point, what to expect from me. Either take me at my word or don't play. I realize that people have had bad encounters with previous GMs. Those people weren't me and I absolutely refuse to be judged based on the actions of somebody I might never even have met. My own personal hangup, I realize, but one I staunchly stand by up til this very moment.

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Well, (again my meager experience) my desire is to try to be the impartial ref, as much as possible. So, I'd probably fall in the middle.

To clarify: "what makes for the best story" isn't always the same as "whatever the players want to happen" or "whatever's best for the PCs." Sometimes the best story means the Hero loses. So I suspect we're probably not as far apart as all that. :)

 

*I have this big issue with distrust at the game table. If you cannot trust me to be a fair, impartial GM, then don't put that responsibility upon me. I've told you, by that point, what to expect from me. Either take me at my word or don't play. I realize that people have had bad encounters with previous GMs. Those people weren't me and I absolutely refuse to be judged based on the actions of somebody I might never even have met. My own personal hangup, I realize, but one I staunchly stand by up til this very moment.

Right there with you. I'm lucky in that I've mostly been able to game with players who trust me. With new players/groups, I try to remember that trust has to be earned.

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