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Invisibility to Hearing Group


Rhino

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Invisibility would cover the audbile evidence of all of those. They could still see your foot prints if the surface allowed them to make an impression. And they could still see the leaves moving or being crushed. 

 

- E

Spot on.  No noise as far as any sense in the hearing group is concerned... but if hearing was the only sense group covered, things that could be perceived by other affected sense groups (such as eepjr24's examples) would remain unaffected.

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Let's complicate it: Let's say they roll poorly on Stealth while using this ability (you're invisible to Hearing so you need to sneak around to not be seen) and you roll poorly - you knock a wrench off a shelf. Does it make a sound when it hits the ground?

You are not trying to be stealthy on sound because you already have the ulimtiatve Sound Stealth working (Inivisbility [Hearing Group]).

You are trying to be stealthy on the sight area wich is inherently different from audible stealth. Stuff like environment actually blocking you.

 

What you describe is a cirtical failure while trying to be Stealthy vs Visibile senses. Why would a critical failure there cause a hearing impression?

Why not simply the other person turning around to light a cigarette just that moment, putting you plain in his sight*?

You are trying to cause an issue, where the should be no issue.

 

*Having some decent ability to predict the targets movement behavior is integral part of Sight Group Stealth.

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Invisibility would cover the audbile evidence of all of those. They could still see your foot prints if the surface allowed them to make an impression. And they could still see the leaves moving or being crushed.

OOPS - I just commented on this in a different thread thinking I had seen it there.

 

It seems like we accept that a character invisible to sight can be detected by an indirect visible clue, such as the footprints in the dry leaves he walks in. Why is it not similarly possible to detect a character invisible to hearing by the indirect audible clue that those same leaves crunch under his feet?

 

If we can see the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to sight, should we not also be able to hear the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to hearing? I think the two should work in similar fashion.

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OOPS - I just commented on this in a different thread thinking I had seen it there.It seems like we accept that a character invisible to sight can be detected by an indirect visible clue, such as the footprints in the dry leaves he walks in. Why is it not similarly possible to detect a character invisible to hearing by the indirect audible clue that those same leaves crunch under his feet?If we can see the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to sight, should we not also be able to hear the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to hearing? I think the two should work in similar fashion.

This is what I was pondering.

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OOPS - I just commented on this in a different thread thinking I had seen it there.

 

It seems like we accept that a character invisible to sight can be detected by an indirect visible clue, such as the footprints in the dry leaves he walks in. Why is it not similarly possible to detect a character invisible to hearing by the indirect audible clue that those same leaves crunch under his feet?

 

If we can see the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to sight, should we not also be able to hear the effects on the leaves despite invisibility to hearing? I think the two should work in similar fashion.

Probably because you do not need to interact with the environment to be visible within the various light/sight spectrums, but you absolutely must interact with the environment to be heard/produce sounds?  (Even an object vibrating in place is still moving a fluid such as air or water.)  I.e. The human foot makes no readily audible sound on its it (yet is visible on its own).  It is when said foot impacts the ground, walks across leaves, or interacts with the environment in some other way there is potentially something to be heard -- and that's simply not required for being seen within the visible spectrums. 

 

If you do not think invisibility to hearing would eliminate the sounds made by such interactions then what, exactly, do you think it should it do?

 

Surreal

 

P.S. This is also why I indicated 'yes' to the question about the wrench.  Invis to hearing would render the person's bodily impact to the wrench (which caused it to fall from the shelf) inaudible ... but it would do NOTHING about the wrench's impact to the ground.  Now if the person had been wielding the wrench, that'd be different, since carried/possessed objects are typically covered by invis ... but in the scenario presented above, that wasn't the case.

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Probably because you do not need to interact with the environment to be visible within the various light/sight spectrums, but you absolutely must interact with the environment to be heard/produce sounds?  (Even an object vibrating in place is still moving a fluid such as air or water.)  I.e. The human foot makes no readily audible sound on its it (yet is visible on its own).  It is when said foot impacts the ground, walks across leaves, or interacts with the environment in some other way there is potentially something to be heard -- and that's simply not required for being seen within the visible spectrums. 

 

If you do not think invisibility to hearing would eliminate the sounds made by such interactions then what, exactly, do you think it should it do?

 

Surreal

 

P.S. This is also why I indicated 'yes' to the question about the wrench.  Invis to hearing would render the person's bodily impact to the wrench (which caused it to fall from the shelf) inaudible ... but it would do NOTHING about the wrench's impact to the ground.  Now if the person had been wielding the wrench, that'd be different, since carried/possessed objects are typically covered by invis ... but in the scenario presented above, that wasn't the case.

We could easily get into the weeds on this one. Sight is usually a passive sense, detecting ambient visible frequencies of electromagnetic radiation bouncing off of the surroundings. Sometimes it is active in that it involves generating electromagnetic radiation to bounce of the target. Hearing is likewise usually passive in that it involves detecting ambient sound waves generated by the target or by its integration with the environment. However it is also sometimes active in that it involves generating a sound wave and bouncing it off of the target.

 

Invisibility to hearing group could be interpreted to mean that active sonar and the such won't detect you, but your interactions with the environment would still be audible. Likewise with invisibility to sight.

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Invisibility to hearing group could be interpreted to mean that active sonar and the such won't detect you, but your interactions with the environment would still be audible. Likewise with invisibility to sight.

 

Rather expensive if that's all each would do.... especially with hearing which tends to come in far fewer flavors than sight...

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Invisibility to hearing group could be interpreted to mean that active sonar and the such won't detect you, but your interactions with the environment would still be audible. Likewise with invisibility to sight.

Interpreting it that way is possible, but not within RAW. You can find several posts relating to this if you search here and the rules forum. And even in the actual description, 6e1, 239

EFFECTS OF INVISIBILITY - Invisible characters can’t be perceived with the affected Sense(s).

 

- E

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You are not trying to be stealthy on sound because you already have the ulimtiatve Sound Stealth working (Inivisbility [Hearing Group]).

You are trying to be stealthy on the sight area wich is inherently different from audible stealth. Stuff like environment actually blocking you.

 

What you describe is a cirtical failure while trying to be Stealthy vs Visibile senses. Why would a critical failure there cause a hearing impression?

Why not simply the other person turning around to light a cigarette just that moment, putting you plain in his sight*?

You are trying to cause an issue, where the should be no issue.

 

*Having some decent ability to predict the targets movement behavior is integral part of Sight Group Stealth.

You're being needlessly antagonistic and assuming intentions, or you don't recognize that your language portrays that image.

 

If your opinion on the issue is simply "no," then a better (concise, responsive, and not seemingly insulting) would have been "No, Invis: Hearing would make that SFX for a failure inappropriate. A better SFX would be [insert visual cues]. Remember, common sense and GM'd judgment apply."

 

Regardless, the issue isn't black and white as you portray it. Surrealone disagrees with you, and so do I. I think it's a perfectly valid description for a critical failure situation. You seem to think that Invis:Hearing should have a much broader penumbra than the book suggests. Would you also rule that talking loudly as an Invisible:Hearing character does not make a sound, because of the power? I'm inferring that you would, but please correct me if I've misread your position.

 

 

To avoid having the wrench make a sound when falling, the PC should buy Darkness vs. Hearing Group. Interestingly, a Darkness bubble centered on the PC would accomplish a very similar effect but with different implications. I'd consider allowing that build.

 

 

With respect to the larger question of "seeing tracks/hearing crunches, why is one definitely ok and the other debatable?" issue, perhaps we should consider the 1st/2nd order nature of these perceptions scenarios.

 

With Sight, I cannot see you, but I can see evidence of you/your presence. You physically disturb the world, and I can use Sight to see those disruptions. Snow is obvious, but in theory I could detect you moving through plants or standing on grass. So I don't have a 1st order perception (of you, yourself), but I do have a 2nd order perception (impacts of your actions/presence).

 

With Sound, I cannot hear you step on the crunchy substance (1st order), but you are still impacting the world. You are still stepping on glass/sticks/pottery shards, and if they break in response to your weight, THEY emit a sound. That seems 2nd order and valid to me. Walking across crunchy things that DON'T break should be silent (no crunch), even if normally my boots might make a sound by moving them around or making contact with them (just as walking across a floor makes a sound without breaking anything).

 

I hadn't previously considered this, but based on the two threads going on right now, I'd rule that a PC wanting to be able to interact with the world (walking across crunchy things, speak, snap guards' necks or break twigs, knock wrenches off shelves, whatever) without that sound being audible to others should buy Darkness.

 

So if the PC with Invis:Hearing wanted to move through some underbrush and not make noise, I'd advise that PC to move slowly so as to not break anything, and drag feet through the piles of sticks that people left lying around so as to not break them.

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Darkness vs hearing group does, indeed, eliminate a lot of the common what-ifs associated with invis to hearing.  That said, most of these what-ifs occur on these forums or in similar dscussion-type vacuums when, in reality, a GM adjudicates the outcome and people move on.  (i.e. In practice, it's rather a non-issue.)

 

As noted, darkness to hearing has its own pitfalls.  Example: active sonar of the sort that bats, whales, etc. use (i.e. actual sound that the creature emits and must then hear) really should not function within it because of the SFX ... and someone with a very broad spectrum view achieved using such active sonar might be able to perceive a sphere of said darkness due to a lack of any response from that area. 

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Probably because you do not need to interact with the environment to be visible within the various light/sight spectrums, but you absolutely must interact with the environment to be heard/produce sounds?  (Even an object vibrating in place is still moving a fluid such as air or water.)  I.e. The human foot makes no readily audible sound on its it (yet is visible on its own).  It is when said foot impacts the ground, walks across leaves, or interacts with the environment in some other way there is potentially something to be heard -- and that's simply not required for being seen within the visible spectrums. 

 

If you do not think invisibility to hearing would eliminate the sounds made by such interactions then what, exactly, do you think it should it do?

The alternative question is that, if you think invisibility to hearing should prevent the dry leaves under your feet making a sound as they break, or the crystals you tread on making a sound as they shatter underfoot, is it not equally logical to think that a character who is Invisible to sight should not be detectable by seeing the footprints he leaves in the same leaves and crystals? If our hypothetical character is invisible to both sight and sound, and runs over crunchy leaves or crystals, how is it consistent that I can detect him by the indirect visible clues of crushed leaves/crystals, but not the indirect audible clues of those leaves/crystals being crushed?

 

I think we would agree he creates neither visual nor audible clues to his passage when running along a street, or hard, packed ground. In other words, should whatever interpretation we make for invisibility to either sense also apply to the other? Sure, invisibility to sight is generally much more useful - that is why it is also much more expensive.

 

Would you also rule that talking loudly as an Invisible:Hearing character does not make a sound, because of the power? I'm inferring that you would, but please correct me if I've misread your position.

A related question - would you then rule that, in order to speak, the character must shut off his Invisibility entirely?

 

To avoid having the wrench make a sound when falling, the PC should buy Darkness vs. Hearing Group. Interestingly, a Darkness bubble centered on the PC would accomplish a very similar effect but with different implications. I'd consider allowing that build.

I'd allow that build. But absent Personal Immunity, the character would also be deaf while within that Sound Darkness field. Invisibility to Hearing does not prevent the character's own hearing from working.

 

 

As noted, darkness to hearing has its own pitfalls.  Example: active sonar of the sort that bats, whales, etc. use (i.e. actual sound that the creature emits and must then hear) really should not function within it because of the SFX ... and someone with a very broad spectrum view achieved using such active sonar might be able to perceive a sphere of said darkness due to a lack of any response from that area.

Sure - just as a person can see a field of darkness (although I do recall a character with IPE Darkness in a game many years back - people outside the field could see into it just fine, but sight failed for all within it).

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I'd say it depends on the special effect.  How limiting some of these conditions are really depend on the campaign, who the character is, and how the power is used.

 

Avoiding making noise when you walk on crunchy dry leaves might be the entire point of buying Invisibility vs hearing.  In a lot of campaigns, you're unlikely to run into anyone with Superman hearing.  So Invisibility vs hearing, defined as "super-quiet movement" would be fine.  That would cover footsteps, breathing, clothes rustling, that kind of thing.  That guy probably wouldn't knock over a wrench on a shelf, because that's just how his power works.  It doesn't matter if you walk on dry leaves, because that's part of the power.  Likewise, somebody with Invis vs sight wouldn't have their footsteps seen if the sfx was "people just happen to glance away from you".  They might see your footsteps later, but they wouldn't notice them as they occurred.

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Let me ask the question from the other direction: if Invisibility to Hearing doesn't cover the sounds of you moving through your environment, then what is it good for?

 

The comparison with seeing footprints in the leaves is a good one from a logical standpoint. But from a gaming standpoint, it basically nerfs the entire point of the power. And I agree with massey you have to look at the sfx. The only Invis to Hearing builds I can think of off the top of my head have been either "I'm really really sneaky" or some sort of sound nullification field that extends force-field-distance around the body (not AoE). Both of those example should cover stepping on leaves; in fact I'm having a hard time thinking of an sfx for this that wouldn't.

 

If a character is Invisible to Hearing and failed a Stealth Roll, I would adjudicate that as "whoops, I thought the guard was looking the other way" or "I didn't notice that mirror there" or "oops I misjudged the light and my shadow gave me away" or something else that provides a visual cue rather than an audible one.

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Invisibility vs sonar for one thing.

Your breathing sounds (or other sounds from inside your body) would not give you away to your supper hearer.

...and you'd pay 10 points for that? I wouldn't.

 

And even Active Sonar is questionable: you could just as easily argue that Vasily's "One Ping Only" is environmental just like the crunchy leaves and therefore not covered.

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...and you'd pay 10 points for that? I wouldn't.

 

And even Active Sonar is questionable: you could just as easily argue that Vasily's "One Ping Only" is environmental just like the crunchy leaves and therefore not covered.

Not sure that argument would hold water. If you are invisible to sound, then an active (or passive) sonar sounding should not see the person. Sight works by detecting the light that reflects off of objects and from objects that create light. Sonar works in the same way and a targeting sense that uses sound waves works the same way. It's also the way that Radar Works. So invisibility to sound should include all forms of Sonar. I guess that it WOULD depend on whether the Player choose to take Invis to sound as a Targeteting sense or a non targeting sense. So Invis to non targeting Sound would be for all body sounds, steps, stomach growls, noisy joints, breathing, heart beats and other sounds that a body makes.

 

IMHO it shouldn't make you invisible to noisy squeeky floors, or the PC's weight breaking glass, branches etc. because those things are due to placing weight on other objects. It's similar to someone Tossing a blanket over the invisible person. Which would render the person visible because of the cloth covering them (mentioned specifically in the book 6e1 pg 240). If you don't want your PC's weight to break things, then buy flight equal to their running movement with Invisible Power effects (HSMA mentions this build).

 

Passive Sonar in the system is called Spacial awareness and it encompases many forms of perception that reflect various senses off of nearby objects ie Sonar, Telekinetic Touch etc

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In my game, unless someone specifically defined it otherwise, being invisible to sound as a person makes you invisible to all sound that character makes directly.  If they knock something over, it makes sound.  If they step on leaves, they don't go "crunch" because he's ... invisible to sound.  Because SONAR is a hearing-based targeting system, then any power that negates hearing necessarily negates SONAR.

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In my game, unless someone specifically defined it otherwise, being invisible to sound as a person makes you invisible to all sound that character makes directly.  If they knock something over, it makes sound.  If they step on leaves, they don't go "crunch" because he's ... invisible to sound.  Because SONAR is a hearing-based targeting system, then any power that negates hearing necessarily negates SONAR.

 

If they step on Leaves the PC isn't making the sound, the Leaves are. 

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If they step on Leaves the PC isn't making the sound, the Leaves are. 

 

Agreed, it would protect against the sound you generate, but not your interactions. That's like you moving an object while invisible to sight, people would still see the object moving in mid-air.

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Agreed, it would protect against the sound you generate, but not your interactions. That's like you moving an object while invisible to sight, people would still see the object moving in mid-air.

But that also is not the only possible interpretation. One could certainly interpret "hearing invisibility" to mean that the sounds of footsteps across the floor (squeaky or otherwise), even sprinting over hardwood in tap shoes, the crunch of the leaves, etc. is cancelled out by the Invisibility.

 

But it seems reasonable that, if these environmental effects are cancelled for Invisibility to Hearing, the character who is Invisible to Sight can extend that over objects he picks up (his own foci and clothes are Invisible already), or even to his footprints, or the scuffs on the fresh polished floor. That would be consistent across the power for both senses.

 

Now, what if we have a laser beam that, when broken, sets off a klaxon? Does invisibility to sight, sound or both cancel that out? :) I am sure Steve would tell us to apply common and dramatic sense in light of the SFX of all of the interacting abilities.

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