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Cost of HA


bigdamnhero

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So I was flipping through my old 4ed book and noticed something I had forgotten, that Hand-to-Hand Attack used to cost 3 points per +1d6. 5ed & 6ed raised that to 4 points per +1d6 – or actually 5 pts per d6 with a mandatory -1/4 Limitation. (Which always seemed an overly-complicated way of doing it to me, but that’s another conversation.) I’d never really thought about it much before, but it got me thinking about whether or not that increased cost is justified/balanced.

 

As the book itself acknowledges, HA is essentially Strength with a Limitation “Only adds to Damage from Normal Attacks that use the Character’s STR.” So the question can be thought of as what should the value of that Lim be.

 

For 5 points I can buy +5 STR which gives me:

  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Normal Damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Killing Damage
  • +1 DC for Grabbing, Squeezing,
  • +1 DC with any HKA Maneuvers
  • +1d6 to Break free from Entangles, Grabs
  • +1 to STR Characteristic Rolls
  • x2 Lifting capacity (and thus affects Encumbrance)
  • +8m Throwing distance
  • …I’m sure I missed a few things

Or for 4 points I can buy +1d6 HA which buys me:

  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • …and that’s all folks.

Anyone else think that seems like more than a -1/4 Lim? Maybe it varies by genre? In a Champions game where the main thing you do with your STR is punch people, maybe that’s not so bad. But in a fantasy game where HKA melee weapons are the norm, that’s much more restrictive.

 

Another way to think of it is to think of it as Blast (5 per 1d6) with No Range, which is normally -1/2. Of course HA adds your STR damage, whereas Blast typically doesn’t, so that might balance out. But in a heroic game where most Blasts are weapons that people don’t pay points for, that feels less relevant than how well it balances with the cost of STR.

 

Anyway it just got me wondering what other people think and if anyone has house-ruled the cost, especially for Heroic games?

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The other item which has to be considered is Martial Arts DC's, which cost 4 points per DC. To me, this is STR, only to add DC's to Martial Arts maneuvers.

 

I think STR, only to add DC's to non-martial maneuvers would reasonably carry the same -1/4 limitation.

 

STR that only adds to normal damage maneuvers, then, could reasonably be -1/2 (so a cost of 10 for +15 STR).

 

We could then reasonably price STR that does not add to damage or attack effects at -2 (cost of 5 for +15 STR).

 

As to the old -1/2 limitation, how fair was it that you could buy the Hand Attack as a -1/2 limitation, or STR without figured characteristics (but with hand attack and all the other benefits of STR) for the same -1/2 limitation? Decoupling of Figured Characteristics has done a lot to improve the equity of characteristic pricing.

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The other item which has to be considered is Martial Arts DC's, which cost 4 points per DC. To me, this is STR, only to add DC's to Martial Arts maneuvers.

Right, I had meant to include that as well but forgot, thanks. To me the pricing of Martial Arts DCs is equally questionable - it arguably does even less than HA. The only thing I would say there is that for most characters with Martial Arts, that's their primary damage mechanism, and often applies to martial arts weapons as well (including HAs and HKAs).

 

So I think I'm okay with +1 DC with Martial Arts costing the same as +1d6 HA - I'm just not sure either of them are worth 4 points when compared to just purchasing STR.

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Martial DCs don't cost END by default.

 

I think the -1/4 default Limitation on HA is about right considering that the damage adding rules heavily encourage using Advantages on HA instead of STR directly.  HA is almost never the only option to build an effect. It only becomes the optimal one when there is a desire to include Advantages.

 

The only way to create better balance between all the different base abilities that do damage would probably require a complete costing overhaul that would likely end the cornerstone 5 points per DC that STR and Blast currently use.

 

Killing Attack is an easier example to begin with.

The current Ranged/HTH split could be recreated with a single Killing Attack power that costs 10 points per 3 DC but includes a requirement to choose 1 of 2 mandatory Advantages (Range or STR adds to damage.  Of course there is always the option of eliminating Killing Attack as a Power and making it an Advantage (similar to what was done with the the morphing of Damage Resistance into the Resistant Advantage).  I think this a bad idea because it removes damage variety by effectively tripling the number of dice rolled for killing damage which puts the bell-curve like consistency of adding more dice front and center.

 

The equivalent for HA would need to involve Blast as well as STR and would cause some wonky rounding issues if 3 points was the base.  The only solution to this that I can see is to add granularity (more points) which would throw off the costing structure for the entire system.

 

I live in a rabbit hole sometimes but this is more like a prairie dog city in the complexity involved.

 

HM

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Killing Attack is an easier example to begin with.

 

The current Ranged/HTH split could be recreated with a single Killing Attack power that costs 10 points per 3 DC but includes a requirement to choose 1 of 2 mandatory Advantages (Range or STR adds to damage.  Of course there is always the option of eliminating Killing Attack as a Power and making it an Advantage (similar to what was done with the the morphing of Damage Resistance into the Resistant Advantage).  I think this a bad idea because it removes damage variety by effectively tripling the number of dice rolled for killing damage which puts the bell-curve like consistency of adding more dice front and center.

Actually, I will suggest that the real fix is a 15 point per 1d6 KA which is Ranged by default, and does not add STR. No other attack (once we accept Hand Attack is just limited STR) can be increased by another ability.

 

I want my Wolverine clone to add 1d6 AP HKA with his 20 STR? Buy +1d6 HKA, and Limit it to be subject to reduction on the same basis as STR. Those Claws are already going to be Limited to have No Range (just like a 3 Stooges Eyepoke Flash). Given Unified Power is -1/4, perhaps we establish that "drained right along with something else" without the reciprocal effect of UP is +0, but also lets positive adjustment powers enhance the ability.

 

That 1d6+1 Sword in a fantasy game should add STR? No sweat - +1d6+1 HKA, requires the user exert 5 STR over STR min for each added DC. What is that limitation worth? Who cares? We don't buy equipment with points. What limitation would you award Grond for 3d6 Flash Eyepoke, only usable if he has at least 15 STR? That's how the limitation should be determined for any character wanting to buy equipment, or other powers, that can be augmented in this manner.

 

Perhaps it would be fair to call this a -1/4 limitation which prevents that STR being used to do damage with any other attack at the same time (a form of Lockout). At present, a Combined Attack of Dagger and Punch seems perfectly legal, even if the dagger damage is being enhanced by the wielder's STR.

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For 5 points I can buy +5 STR which gives me:

  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Normal Damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Killing Damage
  • +1 DC for Grabbing, Squeezing,
  • +1 DC with any HKA Maneuvers
  • +1d6 to Break free from Entangles, Grabs
  • +1 to STR Characteristic Rolls
  • x2 Lifting capacity (and thus affects Encumbrance)
  • +8m Throwing distance
  • …I’m sure I missed a few things
Or for 4 points I can buy +1d6 HA which buys me:
  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • …and that’s all folks.
Anyone else think that seems like more than a -1/4 Lim? Maybe it varies by genre? In a Champions game where the main thing you do with your STR is punch people, maybe that’s not so bad. But in a fantasy game where HKA melee weapons are the norm, that’s much more restrictive.

 

Another way to think of it is to think of it as Blast (5 per 1d6) with No Range, which is normally -1/2. Of course HA adds your STR damage, whereas Blast typically doesn’t, so that might balance out. But in a heroic game where most Blasts are weapons that people don’t pay points for, that feels less relevant than how well it balances with the cost of STR.

 

Anyway it just got me wondering what other people think and if anyone has house-ruled the cost, especially for Heroic games?

 

That it cost 5 points with a Mandatory Limitation makes sense. It maintains the AP/DC side of the balance.

Increasing the Limitation value to -1/2? Perhaps.

As others have pointed out, the use is different depeding on Genre:

- In Heroics the main use is getting to damage Levels you could not push your STR to effectively. NCM kind of locks your STR out at 20-25. You need weapons (or Weapon Master) to get a competitive amount of damage in the first place. For heroics it is a nessesity to have HKA or HTH-Attack.

- For superheroics them main use is getting a "DC Calculation affecting Advantage" onto your STR, without a expensive power or Naked Advantage covering all 60 AP. Indeed that is propably a big reason the DC doubling rule was removed from the Basic Rules (into Genre/Optional Rule territory).

 

"Another way to think of it is to think of it as Blast (5 per 1d6) with No Range, which is normally -1/2. Of course HA adds your STR damage, whereas Blast typically doesn’t, so that might balance out. But in a heroic game where most Blasts are weapons that people don’t pay points for, that feels less relevant than how well it balances with the cost of STR."

On this part I noticed something:

Killing Attack exist in Ranged and Melee Variants. As I see it exists implicitly as Ranged+Adds STR, but you have to either take a "No Range" or "Does not Add STR to damage" sort-off-limitation on your KA's (it does "drop" the AP cost down to 5 AP/DC). If you want both, that needs a +1/2 Advantage.

Yet Normal Damage (Range/Melee) is two seperate powers. That looked like a leftover to me. Maybe we should fold them into one power like both cases of Killing Damage?

 

The only real reasons to have them as sepearate powers seems to be how Adjustment Powers interact with them (Resistant Defenses and Defenses, Resistant(+1/2) are drained seperately; so is Blast and HTH-Attack, but not both Killing Attack variants).

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How else does one enhance DC? There is another thread currently discussing the cost of Weapon Master, which is constructed as 2 skill levels, only to add damage, per +1 DC. 2 5 point skill levels with Martial Arts, only for damage at the -1/2 set for Weaponmaster, would cost 20 points for +3 DC, a lot more than the 12 points for MA DCs. That makes Hand Attack a bargain.

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How else does one enhance DC? There is another thread currently discussing the cost of Weapon Master, which is constructed as 2 skill levels, only to add damage, per +1 DC. 2 5 point skill levels with Martial Arts, only for damage at the -1/2 set for Weaponmaster, would cost 20 points for +3 DC, a lot more than the 12 points for MA DCs. That makes Hand Attack a bargain.

 

No, it just makes the other techniques too expensive.  HA isn't competing against limited skill levels.  It's competing against raw Str.

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For 5 points I can buy +5 STR which gives me:

  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Normal Damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Killing Damage
  • +1 DC for Grabbing, Squeezing,
  • +1 DC with any HKA Maneuvers
  • +1d6 to Break free from Entangles, Grabs
  • +1 to STR Characteristic Rolls
  • x2 Lifting capacity (and thus affects Encumbrance)
  • +8m Throwing distance
  • …I’m sure I missed a few things
Or for 4 points I can buy +1d6 HA which buys me:
  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • …and that’s all folks.
Anyone else think that seems like more than a -1/4 Lim? Maybe it varies by genre? In a Champions game where the main thing you do with your STR is punch people, maybe that’s not so bad. But in a fantasy game where HKA melee weapons are the norm, that’s much more restrictive.

 

Another way to think of it is to think of it as Blast (5 per 1d6) with No Range, which is normally -1/2. Of course HA adds your STR damage, whereas Blast typically doesn’t, so that might balance out. But in a heroic game where most Blasts are weapons that people don’t pay points for, that feels less relevant than how well it balances with the cost of STR.

 

Anyway it just got me wondering what other people think and if anyone has house-ruled the cost, especially for Heroic games?

 

[Emphasis added]

 

Interesting discussion.

 

But before figuring how much functionality you're losing, look at your list and decide what you do _not_ allow HA to be used for.

 

I'm sure that this is going to vary based on 2 things:

 

Who the GM is and what the SFX are. For example, if I were the GM, and the SFX were "claws," then I might allow the HA to apply to damage from Squeeze. I wouldn't have any issues with Claws being used against an Entangle.

 

That sort of thing.

 

Now for my own campaigns, where I am the GM, anyway, what HA can and can't be used for depends _entirely_ on the SFX of the HA.

 

HA costs 3 pts in our campaigns because I find using an STR-based build that it's a -1/2 Limitation, at least for us. This actually has the rather nice effect of allowing it to be used for non-STR-based things like Damage Shield and breaking it back to pts / die, as does Damage Shield (both of which are +1/2 for our games).

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Martial DCs don't cost END by default.

Good point.

 

The only way to create better balance between all the different base abilities that do damage would probably require a complete costing overhaul that would likely end the cornerstone 5 points per DC that STR and Blast currently use.

Yeah, and I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far. At least not today. Interesting analysis tho.

 

Bigdamnhero iirc, HA in 4th also was supposed to be used with a focus of sort too.

I just went back and looked, and there's nothing in the 4ed section on HA that specifically mention Foci. Tho obviously that's always been a pretty common combination.

 

The best fix for HA is to simply take it out of the game for everything but weapons not defined as HKA.

I get what you're saying, but it's such an obvious mechanism that I think removing it as a Power would create more "I don't understand how I build this" problems. Plus even if you were to remove HA and just use Limited STR, that still doesn't solve the question of how much the Limitation is worth; it just pushes it back a step.

 

That it cost 5 points with a Mandatory Limitation makes sense. It maintains the AP/DC side of the balance.

Yeah, I see why they did it for systematic reasons - it just seems overly fiddly to me personally. [shrug] But that's probably why no one pays me to design RPGs. :D

 

Maybe we should fold them into one power like both cases of Killing Damage?

Eh. As above, I don't see how that addresses balance concerns; it just pushes them back a step. Especially for the most common game mechanics - dealing damage - I don't have a problem keeping them separate.

 

There is another thread currently discussing the cost of Weapon Master...

Yeah, I saw that thread but hadn't commented on it yet. I've never been a big Weapon Master fan anyway, so I've never given the cost much thought.

 

No, it just makes the other techniques too expensive.  HA isn't competing against limited skill levels.  It's competing against raw Str.

Yeah, that's the angle I'm looking at it from too.

 

Now for my own campaigns, where I am the GM, anyway, what HA can and can't be used for depends _entirely_ on the SFX of the HA.

I think that's a key point, Duke. Tho I would add in addition to sfx, it also depends on how often the character will be using their STR for something that HA does not add to. This may vary not only with sfx and with genre, but even from character to character. For example, a Brick buys +2d6 HA defined as "rock-hard fists" or something; her primary attack is punching people, so she's going to add those HA dice maybe 9 times out of 10, so -1/4 is probably fine. Meanwhile a swordsman character does HKA most of the time, but he wants a little extra oomph for those times when he's been disarmed, so he buys +2d6 HA, maybe defined as lead-lined gloves; he's only going to get to add in his HA dice maybe 1-2 times out of 10, so maybe the Limitation is worth more than -1/4 for him? (Plus a Focus Lim, natch.) Of course giving different discounts for the same Limitation to different characters within the same campaign obviously opens some equity issues, perceived or actual.

 

I think my short-term fix, without rewriting too much of the system, is just to reintroduce Brawling (which was a Skill in 3ed FH) as a Custom Talent for Fantasy games or other genres that seem appropriate: +1d6 Hand-to-Hand Damage, only with unarmed combat, for 3 points.

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For 5 points I can buy +5 STR which gives me:

  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Normal Damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Killing Damage
  • +1 DC for Grabbing, Squeezing,
  • +1 DC with any HKA Maneuvers
  • +1d6 to Break free from Entangles, Grabs
  • +1 to STR Characteristic Rolls
  • x2 Lifting capacity (and thus affects Encumbrance)
  • +8m Throwing distance
  • …I’m sure I missed a few things

Or for 4 points I can buy +1d6 HA which buys me:

  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • …and that’s all folks.

Well, HA actually adds to Normal Damage Martial Maneuvers per 6E1 231. Also, if you use the rule of not being able to double damage on a weapon without breaking it, STR is affected but HA is not. Additionally, another rule allows for STR in Heroic Games to cost 1 END for 5 STR. In that case, HA has less END cost at 1 END Per 10 APs. 

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I'm not really sure why HA gets a 1/4 limitation at all.

 

Seems to me that you have one attack "Blast" that does normal damage and it either does this at range or it does it in melee but strength adds to it, just like killing attacks.

 

As for comparing it to stats, stats and powers do not compare well, so they probably ought not be considered in any math comparison.  Stats are very efficient for the points, in order to allow people to build their concept.

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Ultimately, the problem that we're seeing with Hand Attack is endemic to the entire Hero System by this point.

 

The points system only works in a rough sense.  Now the system is way better at creating balance than say, D&D, where Bob rolls straight 18s for stats and Steve rolls so low that he doesn't qualify for any class at all.

 

But what has happened in Hero, is that over the years, small modifications were made to the system.  Sometimes that was to try and better balance things.  But a modification here just put things out of balance over there.  Certain things were retained for the sake of tradition, some things were changed to fit with a particular view of how the game should work, options were added, changes were made to be more cinematic, etc.  And that's resulted in a game where the points balance is not as good as it was in 4th edition.

 

You'd almost have to scrap the whole thing and build the system from the ground up to make the points system work right.  Stuff like Weaponmaster gets built out of the pricing structure of skill levels, while Hand Attack is limited Str, and then Martial Arts damage classes work from a third perspective, and then you get maneuver and velocity damage on top of that.  So you get like 4 different pricing structures that aren't really compatible with each other.

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Actually I noticed a mistake here that mostly apply to the Superheroic genre (again):
"For 5 points I can buy +5 STR which gives me:

  • +1 DC unarmed combat damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Normal Damage
  • +1 DC with most melee weapons that do Killing Damage
  • +1 DC for Grabbing, Squeezing,
  • +1 DC with any HKA Maneuvers
  • +1d6 to Break free from Entangles, Grabs
  • +1 to STR Characteristic Rolls
  • x2 Lifting capacity (and thus affects Encumbrance)
  • +8m Throwing distance
  • …I’m sure I missed a few things"

Nothing in HA says your are attack is not longer considered "unarmed". That is an implication from HA usually build into a weapon of some sort.
Afaik the only rule for "unarmed" attacks that applies in Hero is that you got a Reach of 0m, if the campaign is using the optional "Reach and OCV" rules from 6E2.
Might also have some effects on blocking not sure right now.

 

Also you can use HA to break out of Entangles, unless they are on accessible Foci or Beam limitations:
"Characters with powers that cause BODY damage and are innate or bought through Inaccessible Foci can use those powers to try to break free (these attacks cause no damage to the Entangled character unless the Entangle has the Backlash Advantage; see below). Characters with powers bought through Accessible Foci normally cannot use those powers to break free from the Entangle, though the exact effects depend on the special effect of the Focus and the circumstances."
 

As grabber if you only use one of your manipulatory limbs to grab, you can use the other to normally attack the enemy. Inlcuding with a Focus.

In turn unless the attacker blocks both Arms, the grabee can still use them and the power associated with them (inlcuding Accessile Foci). The full rules for "Origin Points" apply here (6E1 125). If the target has multiple Origin Points, you got a lot of limbs to block.

Not to mention how usefull "Multiple Limbs" here is - Grab with 2 Limbs or more (+5 STR per), punch with the others.

Forcing the grabber to abort to Dodge/cancel the grab to restore his DCV with an attack would IMHO be a valid way to break a grab.

The only power in generally not allowed to break a Grab is any form of Blast (even with no Range).

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I'm not really sure why HA gets a 1/4 limitation at all.

 

Seems to me that you have one attack "Blast" that does normal damage and it either does this at range or it does it in melee but strength adds to it, just like killing attacks.

Because of that right there; the part I added emphasis to. Because prior to 5e (perhaps prior to 4e; I don't have time to check but I'll look again when I'm off work) there was never an assumption that STR was going to automatically add to HA damage. HA damage was figured as either STR: only for damage or Energy Blast: No Rage, but it could be defined as a spike-covered shirt if you wanted it to. Someone grabs you, Boom!

 

"Trigger" may or may not be added to suit SFX, etc. But originally, there was no specific "STR adds to this." By _requiring_ this (which we completely ignore, for anyone collecting random data), the nature of what is "book legal" is dramatically changed: it's saying essentially that this _must_ be a STR-based attack or there is no other way to deliver damage an adjacent opponent short of grab and squeeze.

 

 

It bugs me.

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Because prior to 5e (perhaps prior to 4e; I don't have time to check but I'll look again when I'm off work) there was never an assumption that STR was going to automatically add to HA damage. HA damage was figured as either STR: only for damage or Energy Blast: No Rage, but it could be defined as a spike-covered shirt if you wanted it to. Someone grabs you, Boom!

 

That's not true.  What you're describing is No Range Energy Blast.

 

Rules for HTA, from 4th edition:

 

Normally, a character does 1d6 damage for every 5 STR; this total can be modified by combat maneuvers.  For 3 Character Points, the character can buy +1d6 of physical Hand-to-Hand Attack (HA).  This adds directly to the damage done by the character's hand-to-hand attacks.

...

Thus, if a character was tied up so that he couldn't use his STR, he would also be unable to use his HA.

 

 

The origin of the limitation was that in 4th edition HTA was 3 points per d6 (because it had no range) and was hideously broken.  So 5th edition made it properly 5 points per d6 then slapped an "only to add to STR damage" limtiation in it that was no limitation at all, but brought the real cost down to about the same.  I think the 1/4 is a grandfathered thing that should have just been left off entirely.

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The mandatory limitation in HA is a throwback to help people use active points to balance things and to keep the 5 points per DC idea.  The active points of 5d6 HA was 25 points then minus the 1/4 limitation would be a real cost of 20 points but with a 1/2 limitation it would be 17 points.  With the elimination of Elemental Controls this matters less.  In the original tests for 4th edition, they had hand attack costing 3 pts per die, wherein people immediately started point it into multipowers (and ECs and VPP to a lesser extent) to max damage.

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Well, HA actually adds to Normal Damage Martial Maneuvers per 6E1 231. Also, if you use the rule of not being able to double damage on a weapon without breaking it, STR is affected but HA is not. Additionally, another rule allows for STR in Heroic Games to cost 1 END for 5 STR. In that case, HA has less END cost at 1 END Per 10 APs. 

Good points, thanks.

 

But what has happened in Hero, is that over the years, small modifications were made to the system.  Sometimes that was to try and better balance things.  But a modification here just put things out of balance over there.  Certain things were retained for the sake of tradition, some things were changed to fit with a particular view of how the game should work, options were added, changes were made to be more cinematic, etc.  And that's resulted in a game where the points balance is not as good as it was in 4th edition.

Actually I would argue almost the exact opposite. But that's another thread, and one that has been beaten to death and I have no desire to revisit. :)

 

You'd almost have to scrap the whole thing and build the system from the ground up to make the points system work right.

Even then there are always trade-offs. There's never going to be a perfectly balanced system if only because what works perfectly for my game won't always work for yours. Heck, what worked perfectly for my last game doesn't always work perfectly for my next game. Unless you want a game that combines the complexity of Arms Law with the subjectivity of story games, and that of course has its own trade offs...

 

Nothing in HA says your are attack is not longer considered "unarmed". That is an implication from HA usually build into a weapon of some sort.

You're right that "unarmed" isn't really a RAW term. I'm using the word somewhat sloppily, to mean generally "just STR, no weapon," mainly because the specific context I'm coming from is a heroic FH game where weapons are generally Foci that you don't pay points for.

 

Also you can use HA to break out of Entangles, unless they are on accessible Foci or Beam limitations:

Correct under RAW, tho I'm a little skeptical about that one. Depends on sfx of course: I see a lot of HA's defined as "weighted gloves" and so forth, and I wouldn't normally say that helps you muscle your way out of most Grabs/Entangles.

 

The only power in generally not allowed to break a Grab is any form of Blast (even with no Range).

I think the actual wording is something like "no Ranged Attacks, even if you buy them with No Range." But essentially yes.

 

it's saying essentially that this _must_ be a STR-based attack or there is no other way to deliver damage an adjacent opponent short of grab and squeeze.

I'm not sure I see that. Saying "the default is X" isn't the same as saying "X is the only way it can work." And as pointed out, that wasn't new with 5ed. (Even 3ed Brawling worked the same way, tho that was far more narrowly defined.)

 

The origin of the limitation was that in 4th edition HTA was 3 points per d6 (because it had no range) and was hideously broken.  So 5th edition made it properly 5 points per d6 then slapped an "only to add to STR damage" limtiation in it that was no limitation at all, but brought the real cost down to about the same.  I think the 1/4 is a grandfathered thing that should have just been left off entirely.

Well, given all the things STR can do that HA does not add to, I definitely think it's worth a Limitation - it's just a question of how much it's worth. But I can also see why 3 AP would have the potential to get unbalanced in the other direction.

 

With the elimination of Elemental Controls this matters less.  In the original tests for 4th edition, they had hand attack costing 3 pts per die, wherein people immediately started point it into multipowers (and ECs and VPP to a lesser extent) to max damage.

Well it still matters in MPs and VPPs. And I'm not sure what your last sentence is saying, since HA did cost 3 AP per die in the final published version of 4ed. (Or at least the copy I have?)

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It's worth noting that there were 3 distinct releases of Champions 4e.

 

1. The original hardback - same system rules as softcover HERO 4e

2. The softcover Champions 4e (I didn't even know this was a thing till this year) - same rules.

3. Champions Deluxe 4e hardback. New layout - some rules updates/changes as well.

 

I own the latter two but have not had the time to really compare them to the original. It also sucks that there is no PDF version of them to be found like there is for the original 4e rules.

 

HM

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True dat. I'm referring to the 4ed Hero System rules, not 4ed Champions.

 

The rules included in the original big blue book hardback Champions 4e are exactly the same as those in the HERO System 4e softcover book.  They even share the same page numbers.  The Champions Sourcebook section of the hardback has a separate numbering.

 

The point I was trying to make is that Champions Deluxe 4e might have a few significant changes to the 4e rules similar to the differences between 5e and 5er. 

 

from:

https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/49228/champions-4th-edition

 

The deluxe edition of Champions (Product Code 451) differs from the hardcover (Product Code 400) and the softcover (Product Code 450) editions in having:

  • New interior graphics and layout.
  • Rules corrections.
  • An index.
  • Smythe-sewn hardcover binding.
  • HeroMaker Software.

 

:)

HM

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Well, given all the things STR can do that HA does not add to, I definitely think it's worth a Limitation

 

Then so is Blast and KA and everything else that deals damage.  The "problem" isn't with those powers, its with STR.  Characteristics, as I noted above, are given a cost break to make them efficient so certain builds aren't excessively expensive.  You can't compare powers with stats, it doesn't work.

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Well it still matters in MPs and VPPs. And I'm not sure what your last sentence is saying, since HA did cost 3 AP per die in the final published version of 4ed. (Or at least the copy I have?)

What happened, at least to me and several GMs is that players would place in multipowers hand attack to exploit the lower cost.  Not the active cost.

 

For example, I was running a champions game in Dundracon and one player kept wanting to make everything through Hand Attack.  Why?  Because using the lower active point he could get more damage and effect while stating that he was within the active point limits. 

 

This character denoted 60 active is a 12d5 EB or 20d6 HA.  After I noted the DC limitation, he then tried 10d6 HA AP AoE Cone.  This is one of the things which has forever soured me on allowing players VPPs.

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