PRIMUS or UNTIL. Who has jurisdiction?

[Dino]

In the Champions Universe, both PRIMUS and UNTIL are authorized to respond to superhuman threats in the USA. So how does this work? When I call 911 to report that VIPER is attacking my office building, who shows up? Both?

[Nothere]

Primus is primary. Think of it like Interpol and the fbi they both go after the same people and but the fbi dosent call in Interpol agents every time a Romanian forger lands in the Us. Same deal Fiacho comes to assassinate the French ambassador on Us soil Until may send some agents to assist and extradite him, but Prims takes the lead.

[megaplayboy]

Yeah, PRIMUS would be the lead responder. If there's an international angle, then UNTIL might be called in to "consult" or share intel/expertise. OTOH, the US has a mutual defense treaty with the other members of NATO. In that circumstance, PRIMUS could theoretically be brought in to assist UNTIL in a member country. But the legal jurisdictions would be limited in each case--PRIMUS to US soil, UNTIL to matters of international law and as permitted by the country in question/authorized via Security Council resolution.

[Steve]

Does either Canada or Mexico have their own versions of PRIMUS or do they just rely on UNTIL?

 

Come to think of it, I'm not aware of PRIMUS equivalents in any other countries in the CU. Are there any?

[Lord Liaden]

UNTIL: Defenders Of Freedom defines this situation quite precisely, both in principle and in practice. First, the principle, from p. 14:

 

"UNTIL has jurisdiction over any of the following types of incidents that take place in any signatory nation (i.e., virtually any nation on Earth, except for China) or in any international territory, or which violate the laws of any signatory nation:

 

- criminal acts committed by, involving, or directly affecting superhumans

 

- criminal acts committed by, involving, or directly affecting superhuman technology

 

- criminal acts committed by, involving, or directly affecting non-Human sentient species not from this planet or dimension, such as alien species, beings from other realities, and the like. This includes attempts by such beings to invade Earth or Earth's reality, whether by stealth and deception, force of arms, or other means.

 

- criminal acts committed by, involving, or directly affecting variant or alternate races of Humanity, such as the Atlanteans, Lemurians, and Empyreans

 

- acts in violation of international criminal law which occur in international territory (such as the high seas)"

 

Then there's the practice, as described on U:DOF p. 46:

 

"While the UN Charter and the Tribunal Treaty give UNTIL the ability to operate without other restrictions in any signatory state or international territory, UNTIL's commanders and agents are aware that they're in a diplomatically delicate position. If they seem to snub, ignore, or insult the officials or citizens of a signatory state, they could quickly find their authority to enter that state curtailed through various "unofficial" means -- or even give the General Assembly cause to recommend restriction on UNTIL's jurisdiction.

 

... For example, in the United States, UNTIL often coordinates its activities with PRIMUS so the two agencies can help each other if necessary or desired, and stay out of each other's way if not. If appropriate, UNTIL also informs the FBI, DEA, local police departments, and any other relevant law enforcement organization. If the situation is one that threatens U.S. national security, UNTIL informs the President, the Department of Defense, or like officials."

[Lord Liaden]

Does either Canada or Mexico have their own versions of PRIMUS or do they just rely on UNTIL?

 

Come to think of it, I'm not aware of PRIMUS equivalents in any other countries in the CU. Are there any?

 

Champions Universe source books mention two other organizations with mandates and functions similar to PRIMUS. In Canada, the "Steelhead Division" of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is deployed to deal with supercrime, its officers equipped with the "Steelsman" light powered armor and specialized weapons (as written up in Champions Of The North pp. 26-27 and 50-51). Japan has three related agencies, described in Monster Island p. 26. "Bureau 17" is responsible for monsters, giant or otherwise, as well as alien invasions or incursions. (The book continues to detail Bureau 17 through p. 40.) "Bureau 18" copes with supervillains and related menaces. It's the largest of these bureaus and operates the most like PRIMUS and UNTIL. "Bureau 19" deals with supernatural and mystic dangers. Obviously there's often overlap in their jurisdictions which sometimes lead to rivalry and resentment, but mostly they cooperate well.

 

It should be noted, however, that both Canada and Japan have a significant UNTIL presence on their soil, and cooperate with and contribute to UNTIL to a substantial degree.

[Cassandra]

PRIMUS was created to keep UNTIL out of the U.S..  SAT was a stopgap organization but stayed around do the the political connections of it's Director, Major Brad Barrington.  The Golden Avenger, de facto second in command of PRIMUS was a supporter  of SAT as an independent organization.   It was only after a SAT Officer turned out to be a VIPER agent resulting in the destruction of an important Satellite was SAT shut down and many of it's agents went into the private sector.

[Lord Liaden]

In the Champions Universe, both PRIMUS and UNTIL are authorized to respond to superhuman threats in the USA. So how does this work? When I call 911 to report that VIPER is attacking my office building, who shows up? Both?

 

I would say the specifics would depend on who's in a position to respond appropriately most immediately. For example, in the CU the police forces of many large US cities have MARS (Metahuman Activities Response Squad) units specially trained and equipped to deal with supervillains or supercriminal groups like VIPER. OTOH the headquarters of UNTIL is in the United Nations Building in New York City, and UNTIL's official superhero team, Unity, is quartered nearby.

[Lord Liaden]

PRIMUS was created to keep UNTIL out of the U.S..  SAT was a stopgap organization but stayed around do the the political connections of it's Director, Major Brad Barrington.  The Golden Avenger, de facto second in command of PRIMUS was a supporter  of SAT as an independent organization.   It was only after a SAT Officer turned out to be a VIPER agent resulting in the destruction of an important Satellite was SAT shut down and many of it's agents went into the private sector.

 

Sorry to butt in, Cassandra, but I'm afraid some of that information applies to a previous incarnation of the Champions Universe, not the current official one. As per its official history and timeline, SAT never existed in this setting's continuity.

[assault]

I think it boils down to: your campaign, your rules.

 

The canonical answer is probably PRIMUS. Or the local police force's anti-supervillain unit if one exists. Or UNTIL, if there's a base nearby. Or any combination of the above, depending on the situation and availability.

 

Honestly, since UNTIL: DOF covers UNTIL in far more detail than PRIMUS is covered anywhere in 5e/6e, I'd be inclined to use UNTIL more. There is, however, enough stuff out there that using PRIMUS is viable.

 

Millennium City (5e) provides useful information on the "Metahuman Activities Response Squad", the local police anti-supercrime unit. It can be used as a model for similar groups elsewhere. Or you could just base them on UNTIL or PRIMUS agents.

 

But ultimately what I wrote in the first line.

[Lord Liaden]

Certainly, for tailoring the source material to a particular campaign, whatever works for the GM is what should be done.

 

In that vein, I have to recommend Shelley Chrystal Mactyre's PRIMUS source book. Even though published in 1999 for Fourth Edition, it's a quality book with in-depth coverage of the agency, easily usable with other Champions sources. Shelley also updated that material in several articles for Digital Hero. And all that stuff is available dirt-cheap from the Hero website store; just Search for "PRIMUS."

[Enforcer84]

Does STOP still exist in the UK?

[Lord Liaden]

STOP isn't mentioned in any 5E or 6E book, but we have no UK source book for the current official setting. Steve and Darren wanted to do one when and if they found a writer with the right qualifications, but the downsizing put the kibosh on that for the foreseeable future. So there's no way to know.

[Cassandra]

Sorry to butt in, Cassandra, but I'm afraid some of that information applies to a previous incarnation of the Champions Universe, not the current official one. As per its official history and timeline, SAT never existed in this setting's continuity.

 

Mostly 1st through 4th edition info.  SAT started in the Deathstroke supplement back in 1983.  The agents were powered armor agents in Red, White, and Blue.  I always thought that Special American Tactics was an homage to the TV show SWAT, just as UNTIL was an homage to the Man from UNCLE.  And of course PRIMUS was in honor of actor Barry Primus  .  .  .  no, wait, that doesn't sound right.

[Dino]

Thanks for all the info guys!

 

The way I see it, while UNTIL has the authority to operate in the US and elsewhere, PRIMUS has the responsibility to protect the US against superhuman threats. PRIMUS would be the lead agency that responds to supervillians in the US with UNTIL only getting involved if PRIMUS needed backup or specific expertise. I imagine that UNTIL has greater intellectual resources and expertise to draw on, being international in scope (PRIMUS is more heavily armed and "belligerently over-funded"). On the other hand, UNTIL operations that are international in scope could easily bring them onto US soil, at which point they would notify US law enforcement and PRIMUS would be expected to render assistance.

 

In the case of cities that have thier own superhuman response teams (like MARS units), I imagine that PRIMUS lets them take the lead in their own territory and stands by to offer assistance (or take over) if things get out of hand. Kind of like how Sheriff's departments and state police treat city cops.

[Lord Liaden]

That all sounds reasonable, and fits the real-world and CU precedents well enough.

[Cassandra]

I watched the life action Cutey Honey Movie from 2004 and the Japanese reporter who helped the Heroine turned out to be an American National Security Agency operative. 

 

The World has a different take on American Jurisdiction.

 

Question:  Why did Japanese Men Give Japanese Woman the Vote?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

In my campaign, PRIMUS has jurisdiction in all instances inside US borders. UNTIL has jurisdiction outside the US and more or less functions like Interpol.

[Lord Liaden]

Question for our American colleagues: Does the idea that an international agency could have jurisdiction over any American affairs, even in a fictional world, bother any of you on principle, or maybe just instinctively?

[bubba smith]

good question LL

[pinecone]

Question for our American colleagues: Does the idea that an international agency could have jurisdiction over any American affairs, even in a fictional world, bother any of you on principle, or maybe just instinctively?

Sure, just a little bit of both....I have "issues" with the idea of extra national interference in general. I figure folks should run their own affairs (mostly). And I don't see how corrupt politicos from a distant land would be preferable to the home grown ones..

[Lawnmower Boy]

Sure, just a little bit of both....I have "issues" with the idea of extra national interference in general. I figure folks should run their own affairs (mostly). And I don't see how corrupt politicos from a distant land would be preferable to the home grown ones..

 

You see, when corrupt potentates from a far-away land come to our country to dispense "justice," they stay at a hotel --and not an economy-type hotel, either, one of those overpriced tourist traps. They have no transportation, so they take limos everywhere; and, of course, they eat out. Like, all three square meals a day! And if it turns out that they forgot to bring toothpaste? They just buy some more! And not those tiny travel sizes, either. They're on an expense account! They'll even swing for that overpriced Toms of Maine stuff!

 

Whereas when local potentates dispense their corrupt "justice," they go home every day to their McMansion in the suburbs, drive their own Discovery. . Heck, they probably brown bag it! (That getaway place in Aspen isn't going to pay for itself, you know.)

 

So. Good for the economy, is what I'm saying. 

[pinecone]

Sure, sure...and the locals have a regular girl, and those fellas have to hire local talent. Sounds good, but if they came all this way...it was to make more than they spend I figure...

 

 

To turn things around, if Primus could operate on your soil, would our current election still be funny? Or would there be a touch of terror in there?

[Cassandra]

Question for our American colleagues: Does the idea that an international agency could have jurisdiction over any American affairs, even in a fictional world, bother any of you on principle, or maybe just instinctively?

 

No

 

We're not on the Metric System to show that fact.

[Cassandra]

SAT originally operated on Foreign Soil because it was part of the U.S. Military while PRIMUS was technically a civilian agency with it's operative sworn in a U.S. Marshals.

 

However Silver Avenger Lyndon Johnson Kaufman, nephew of the Golden Avenger, was sent to Central America on a SAT mission that went wrong and he defected to the Soviet Union and became Red Shield.