inter-dimensional campaign with different ways to gain power

[Lathner]

So I am building a campaign that is gonna start out with normal joes going through a "training mini-campaign"  then they will be ported into a fantasy world already built conept. And I wanted to know if there was a good way to balance mutiple genres powers as in Guns vs. magic vs. lasers 

[Lathner]

also I would like to add that in addition I am thinking along the line of this book sereies for ref

[bluesguy]

Oh that idea sounds like a lot of fun.

 

As far as balancing goes just keep the active points at about the same place for all attacks and it should work out ok.

 

After all "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke

[Lathner]

Oh that idea sounds like a lot of fun.

 

As far as balancing goes just keep the active points at about the same place for all attacks and it should work out ok.

 

After all "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke

ok thanks for that should be helpful

[mallet]

Are you planning for your campaign to be Heroic level or Superhero? I think this will be a major factor, at least it was for me when I ran a similar style campaign a couple of years back. 

 

The issue I ran into, and hopefully you can avoid, is that: "do the characters get weapons and gear for free, or do they have to pay cp for them?" 

 

My initial thought and how I started off the campaign was that it would be Heroic level, as I wanted the characters to be "normal" people (for the type of world they came from, so some would have magic, super skills or cyberwear paid for by points, but would still get weapons and gear for free). And I also thought that keeping the active points about equal would work out. 

 

Unfortunately that did not end up being the case. There is a built in (rightfully so, in my opinion) power creep for weapons and armor between a Fantasy setting, a modern day setting and a sci-fi setting, just because technology obviously gets more powerful as time progresses. Not just in the Hero System, but in players minds. 

 

But Sci-fi weapons and gear are often vastly more powerful then a modern era pistol and kevlar vest, so any character with access to "free sci-fi" gear will generally be much more effective in combat then one with only access to modern or fantasy era weapons and this quickly turned the game into everyone loading up on the sci-fi gear, even if it was "out of character" and took away from the flavor we were going for. 

 

So we did a "soft reset" of the game and I made it "superhero" level, but one with fairly strict characteristic maximums (to keep them as "normals") and then I gave them a set number of character points (and Active point max) to build their weapons and gear, magic abilities, super skills, etc.... So if a player did want to spend all his points on just a sci-fi disrupter blaster and advanced body armor, he would have those two things, and thats it. Another character playing a "modern era" character would have the same number of points but be able to buy a lot more variety of weapons and gear making him more versatile. Same with a Mage, he would spend his points on spells, either a few powerful ones, or a variety of lesser powered ones. 

 

This wasn't perfect, but it did end up working better and allowed the players to play to their concept rather then just creating an "arms race" of weapons and gear and all the characters ending up being the same. 

[Lathner]

Well I was planning on a heroic with it being a creep for more advance items such as the sicfi items with randomish in counters getting stronger with time

 

Also I was more worried about magic or tech out doing each other

[Christopher]

Well I was planning on a heroic with it being a creep for more advance items such as the sicfi items with randomish in counters getting stronger with time

 

Also I was more worried about magic or tech out doing each other

Usually the rules for Equipment and Magic are:

In heroic Campaigns:

Equipment is bought for with money or looted, not points. Equipment might exceed any caps. Most of the example Weapons from 6E2 do not conform to any heroic cap. You need the skills to use the equipment (Weapon Familiarity; Hyperdrive Navigation)

Magic is usualyl pre-built. It is usually bought for with points, but that requires hefty limitations. Maybe even a general cheapening.

Magic Items fall under equipment

 

In Superheroics campaigns:

Every power is bought with Points.

Stuff bought with points do not need any special skill (Weapon Familiarity, Navigation for FTL) to use.

Innate, Magic, Equipment might make a difference in the Limitations and Special Effect, but not in the actually builds. You can use one power (like HKA) for many effects (Plasma Fist, Power FIst, super martial arts).

In turn equipment is generally not share or lootable. You can led thors hammer once or twice per campaign, but anything more requires a "Usable by Others/on Others" Advantage. And must be very carefully watched regarding campaign limits. You can pick up that Viper Goons blaster once or twice, but you have to pay points if you want it around regulary.

The Campain limits mater a lot. However many people have a more refined thing called a "Rule of X", that takes SPD, CV's and defenses into account on top of plain Damage Classes.

 

So yes, the definition maters a lot in how you build even the most basic gear. Personally I would advise towards a Superheroic Level, personally. Usually easiest way to mix even genrees, without having to worry about balance too much. The Points and Caps will maintain the balance.

[Nolgroth]

Even if you don't play at superhero power levels, bump the points up a little and make every character buy gear with points. I've found that 50-75 extra points makes up the difference.

[Lathner]

Even if you don't play at superhero power levels, bump the points up a little and make every character buy gear with points. I've found that 50-75 extra points makes up the difference.

ok that helps building it allitle

[Lathner]

Another question I have is how would I incorperate the gain of items and powers (mostly the powers part) from doing quests and them finding random game things

[Christopher]

Another question I have is how would I incorperate the gain of items and powers (mostly the powers part) from doing quests and them finding random game things

In a point buy system approach, you do not.

You are using either "buying equipment with CP" or you do "buy with money/loot". You have to pick one and stick to it.

 

And buying with CP simply works better for the case of mixed genres.

Power/equipment gain happens indirectly via XP expenditure.

If you take away equipment for good, the points should be refunded. Otherwise gear should quickly finds it's way back/be replaced by the character after a day  so.

 

There is a sort-off mix of both world, called "Resource Points" in APG 1, 191

With that gear is gained Heroically (buy and loot). But how much you can carry is limited by the Resource Points, a VPP like construct. Resource points are given for free at start, can be bought for XP and awared as more granular XP.

Have I have no data on using Resouce Pools to also account for powers.

[Nolgroth]

I'm going to disagree with Christopher; you can give item rewards in the point buy method. You, as the GM, must understand that you will essentially be giving away free points when you do. For depletable items like healing potions, it is not a huge deal (unless you are way too generous).

 

You can also use Resource Pools for "generic" items and still require custom gear to be paid for with points. For example, anybody could pick up a 1911 .45 Pistol. To have a special one (extra capacity or increased base damage) the character would need to buy it with points.

[dsatow]

i'd treat it like a low powered superhero game.  I think it works out better but that's just my take.  In a fantasy setting instead of saying you got N gold coins, you would say the treasure is worth N exp. for the players to distribute as they see fit.  Then use the generic wealth system for day to day purchasing.  Doing this, you can include healing potions and the like as part of treasure and cut down on the XP to compensate.  If you normally give 2 XP per player per game and you have 5 players, instead of directly giving 2 XP per player, the treasure is worth an abstract 10 XP to distribute as they see fit.

[Duke Bushido]

Even if you don't play at superhero power levels, bump the points up a little and make every character buy gear with points. I've found that 50-75 extra points makes up the difference.

This, a hundred-thousand times.

 

It's been many, many moons, but we had a short-lived "weird world" campaign, and it didn't take long to figure out that this is really the only way to keep everyone on a more-or-less even field.

 

As a corollary, certain things are going to require COR, no matter what genre the Character is actually from. That, and it's sort of interesting to watch Supers et all figure out how to _earn_ money (they generally do-good for free, and have issues with charging for their super-services even as a job) and of course, where to _store_ the money.

[Christopher]

i'd treat it like a low powered superhero game.  I think it works out better but that's just my take.  In a fantasy setting instead of saying you got N gold coins, you would say the treasure is worth N exp. for the players to distribute as they see fit.  Then use the generic wealth system for day to day purchasing.  Doing this, you can include healing potions and the like as part of treasure and cut down on the XP to compensate.  If you normally give 2 XP per player per game and you have 5 players, instead of directly giving 2 XP per player, the treasure is worth an abstract 10 XP to distribute as they see fit.

We really can not stress it enough:

Gear bought or looted is always a balance problem for every Heroic game, every gaming system, every setting. Because it adds Abilities without being properly accountable for.

D&D tries to solve it with thier "Wealth to Level" tables, wich are derived from testgames and thier existing loot tables.

Shadowrun 5E introduce a adventure generator. There the more cold blooded the action, the more money you get. But the less Karma (XP). And in Shadowrun of course, legality and avoiding attention mater a lot.

Hero Systems Heroic Setting suffers the same problem as well.

 

Only in Superheroic games where every power (regardless of gear based or innate) is accounted for with Character points, does the problem not exist. Those based on gear might be cheaper (Limitations), but that is not an absolute.

Resource Points try to somewhat move the "Accountability" into the Heroic settings, without incuring all the CP overhead of having to account for every single power.

[Lathner]

We really can not stress it enough:

Gear bought or looted is always a balance problem for every Heroic game, every gaming system, every setting. Because it adds Abilities without being properly accountable for.

D&D tries to solve it with thier "Wealth to Level" tables, wich are derived from testgames and thier existing loot tables.

Shadowrun 5E introduce a adventure generator. There the more cold blooded the action, the more money you get. But the less Karma (XP). And in Shadowrun of course, legality and avoiding attention mater a lot.

Hero Systems Heroic Setting suffers the same problem as well.

 

Only in Superheroic games where every power (regardless of gear based or innate) is accounted for with Character points, does the problem not exist. Those based on gear might be cheaper (Limitations), but that is not an absolute.

Resource Points try to somewhat move the "Accountability" into the Heroic settings, without incuring all the CP overhead of having to account for every single power.

 

 

This, a hundred-thousand times.

 

It's been many, many moons, but we had a short-lived "weird world" campaign, and it didn't take long to figure out that this is really the only way to keep everyone on a more-or-less even field.

 

As a corollary, certain things are going to require COR, no matter what genre the Character is actually from. That, and it's sort of interesting to watch Supers et all figure out how to _earn_ money (they generally do-good for free, and have issues with charging for their super-services even as a job) and of course, where to _store_ the money.

 

 

I'm going to disagree with Christopher; you can give item rewards in the point buy method. You, as the GM, must understand that you will essentially be giving away free points when you do. For depletable items like healing potions, it is not a huge deal (unless you are way too generous).

 

You can also use Resource Pools for "generic" items and still require custom gear to be paid for with points. For example, anybody could pick up a 1911 .45 Pistol. To have a special one (extra capacity or increased base damage) the character would need to buy it with points.

 

 

i'd treat it like a low powered superhero game.  I think it works out better but that's just my take.  In a fantasy setting instead of saying you got N gold coins, you would say the treasure is worth N exp. for the players to distribute as they see fit.  Then use the generic wealth system for day to day purchasing.  Doing this, you can include healing potions and the like as part of treasure and cut down on the XP to compensate.  If you normally give 2 XP per player per game and you have 5 players, instead of directly giving 2 XP per player, the treasure is worth an abstract 10 XP to distribute as they see fit.

Ok so this means that the power gain needs to be balanced by lack of some other side effect. Now deciding how that works is a problem. The problem with the pay for items in the campaign I am thinking of running they don't really get to deiced on their start powers since they will be roll playing little old Joe from the street pulled into dimension x and given powers from a "Test" the goal will to be to get home by exploring different dimensions. 

 

The item gain and quests will allow them to make the character into what they wish it to be and I have plot points and the like to give them. 

 

Now the problem is should I put value on these by using a xp/cash/or,Resource system to balance and keep them from getting op compared to the others playing

[Duke Bushido]

Ah.

 

In that case, it shouldn't really matter too terribly much. If they are all starting from the same level, and all built the same (points, cash equipped, whatever), _and_ you already have existing rails for them to advance upon, then it doesn't matter. So long as they have equal access to advancement, and that advancement is either all the same type or equal-ish portions of different types, then they should all still remain relatively in scale to each other.

 

Go with the one that gives you the feel you're most interested in.

 

 

Duke

[Nolgroth]

Ok so this means that the power gain needs to be balanced by lack of some other side effect. Now deciding how that works is a problem. The problem with the pay for items in the campaign I am thinking of running they don't really get to deiced on their start powers since they will be roll playing little old Joe from the street pulled into dimension x and given powers from a "Test" the goal will to be to get home by exploring different dimensions. 

 

The item gain and quests will allow them to make the character into what they wish it to be and I have plot points and the like to give them. 

 

Now the problem is should I put value on these by using a xp/cash/or,Resource system to balance and keep them from getting op compared to the others playing

 

One of Hero's hallmarks is a relative balance between characters based on the points that they've been given to spend. It isn't perfect, but it does give a pretty good idea. It seems to me that your intended purpose is to ignore that aspect of Hero. I am not making a judgment call on that. A system, especially Hero, should bend in the ways that we need it to bend in order to fit our game. So let's dispense with that feature and find some other methods to balance the characters versus each other.

 

Suggestions;

1. Use Character Ability Guidelines from page 35 of the 6E1 book. For this purpose, they will be essential and they must be absolute.
2. Designate Power Tiers. For example, Heroic, Epic and Legendary. Set a benchmark in Experience Points (or time played or GM fiat) to improve to the next level. Increase the Character Guidelines so that the existing characters can grow.
3. (Advice) Be prepared for every single player to buy abilities right up to this limit. It's going to happen and that is one of the biggest complaints about using Character Guidelines. I see it as a feature, however, as each character type will be roughly as powerful as others. 
4. In a nod towards MMO or other video games, set up Equipment Slots. I would use Head, Body, R. Arm, L. Arm, R. Hand, L Hand, R Leg, L Leg, R. Foot, and L. Foot. I would then have Primary/Off-Hand slots for equipped weapons or gadgets. Instead of using points to balance, you use these slots. Depending on the venue in which you play (online versus ftf), you need to have which slots are presently occupied by which piece of gear. For ftf games, I would suggest index cards that delineate the power and the slot used. Note that you could simplify the slots down (Head, Arms, Hands, Body, Legs, Feet) or different slots (Belt, Amulet, Rings). 
5. Restrict when the characters may change out the slotted equipment based on availability. Sitting around the HQ? Sure. In the middle of exploring the Space Fungi Caves of Nebulous 7? Not so much or only when a new piece of equipment presents itself.
6. Define Special Effects keywords and use them. For things like Dispel, Aid, etc. you will thank yourself that you did. I never bought into the Until Superpowers Database or the 6E equivalent, but that might already be done for you.

Explanation/Reasoning:

All games vie for some sort of balance between characters. Hero has several methods and relative numbers of points is one big one. Since I am suggesting that you get rid of that, something must take its place. The Character Guidelines, strictly enforced, provide an immediate cap on the effectiveness on any given power. The Slots cap how many powers are available to all characters. Sure, Gadget Man might have 20 gadgets in his warehouse somewhere, but he will only be able to slot in the same number as Parsimonious Girl, who only barely has enough equipment to fill the slots she has. Gadget Man is theoretically more versatile than Parsimonious Girl, but his warehouse full of gadgets might just be useful to both of them. 

 

Drawbacks:

• Yeah, there are a few. One is that you will need to build a lot of prefab equipment. You can mitigate this by using the players to help you out. One of the reasons for having those guidelines in place is to allow for quick creation of items.
• Some builds, no matter how many rules you have in play, are going to be inherently more effective than others. This is normal to Hero already, but it can easily be exacerbated in an environment like this. Liberally use your GM power of Veto/Conditional Veto on any equipment powers drawn up.
• Look out for synergistic builds between inherent character powers and slotted equipment. This is especially true if you employ the players to help you build stuff. It is only natural for a player to sit down and ask "What would benefit my character?" so just be aware.

Other:

• This is only an "off the cuff" suggestion based on the criteria you specified. I have not playtested it and have no idea if your game will explode, develop weeping sores, or erupt into spontaneous gang turf wars in your neighborhood. In other words, look at it and consider whether it is appropriate for you to use. You might think it crap and move on. I am just trying out of the box solutions.

 

Good luck.