Well our game was wrecked.... and we got Tolerant

[Duke Bushido]

We were going to do a quick catch-up and blue booking session tonight for Yamato-- not the cartoon; it's the name of our other sci-fi game (a few different players). Seriously: nothing to do with the cartoon; the name is a coincidence.

 

 

Anyway, we were statting out a "new alien race" one of the players wanted to concoct for his new character and then something happened.

 

It started because he wanted his character to have an ability similar to the Luxans of Farscape: Tolerance to vacuum. _Not_ "can survive in," but "Tolerance."

 

So we spent our precious hours tossing ideas around (and I checked in here a bit to see if I could find something like it. No dice, or I wouldn't have bothered you with it.)

 

 

We've got something that works for us, but as this board constantly reminds me, our primary rules and ideas are not only several generations behind, but a very tiny sample of all the things ever published for this game, period.

 

So I thought I'd throw it what we came up with out here on the board (much easier, since we've started using electronic devices to keep up with our house rules (yeah; I'm a regular Luddite with my game stuff. Don't know why, but scrawling it out in a notebook with a blunt pencil.... It just "feels" like gaming, ya know?! )

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm tossing this up here (with the permission of all contributors, of course) just to see if anyone can make some improvements or point to some already-published rules along a similar line.

 

The idea is a reduced form of Life Support. Actually, two reduced forms: a 2-pt and a 3-pt. These reduced versions are being tentatively referred to as "Tolerance." The idea came about because our current rules (and probably some of the newer ones) have the division between "breathe underwater" and "don't breathe at all." It sort of ran amok there for a while.

 

(and I've got to speed this up. The alarm cat is telling me it's after bedtime ).

 

 

So I'm just going to do a quick copy paste, but will be glad to hear comments, suggestions, better ideas, or field questions sometime tomorrow evening (East Coast).

 

 

(oh! It might help to note that we're working with Life Support as originally presented in 2e, with a couple of changes, most notably rather than buying X and getting everything before it, you buy piecemeal and every "piece" is five points)

Here ya go:

 

 

Total Immunity is self-explanatory. Partial Immunity (or “Tolerance”) is a less-expensive, less-effective version of Life Support.

 

A character who is merely Tolerant of an environment must make a CON check every Phase 0 (once per Turn) that he is exposed to the conditions. If he passes his CON check, then he sustains no ill effects of exposure to the environment. If a Character has a 2-pt Tolerance and fails his CON check, he suffers the effects of the environment (be it damage, disorientation, or what have you) as would a Character with no life support and his CON drops by 1.

 

If he fails his CON check and has a 3-pt Tolerance, then he will take 1/2 of the effect characters with no Life Support would endure and his CON is reduced by 1. As his CON drops, so does his roll.

 

 

[Quick note for those reading this on the board: Things related to "the Human Condition" or just generally being a living thing are referred to as "Conditions" as opposed to "Environments."]

 

Conditions (lack of food, aging, the need for sleep, etc) are handled differently:

 

Characters with a 2 pt Tolerance to “the human condition” are considered to be only “1/2 as affected (ie, age at 1/2 normal rate or require food 1/2 as often).”

 

Characters with a 3-pt Tolerance are considered to be only “1/4 as affected (needs 1/4 the sleep or stays awake 4 times as long; breathes 1/4 as often).”

 

It seems a bit stream of consciousness, but please understand that I just pulled it out of the middle of our house rule on Life Support. I'll be glad to clean it up more logically if anyone would prefer it.

 

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Ideas where I can find a better version already printed in some of the splatbooks?

 

Even if you hate it, thanks for any feedback you may have.

 

 

 

Duke

[Grailknight]

Where are you hung up? Is it the need for breath, lack of external pressure, temperature or radiation that is the point of conjecture? Just pinpointing this aspect of the problem will probably solve most of it.

[Surrealone]

The latest generation of rules has Life Support options like:

Diminished Eating: 1-3CP

* 1 CP = Needs to Eat/Drink once/wk

* 2 CP = Needs to Eat/Drink once/yr

* 3 CP = No need to Eat/Drink

 

Diminished Sleep: 1-3 CP

* Same pattern as above (i.e. sleep 8 hrs/wk, 8 hrs/yr, or never)

 

Extended Breathing: 1-4 CP

* Extends the interval at which a character holding his breath must spend END (Normally 1/Phase without Extended Breathing)

* 1 CP = 1 END/Turn

* 2 CP = 1 END/Min

* 3 CP = 1 END/5 Mins

* 4 CP = 1 END/20 Mins

 

Note that just because you can hold your breath doesn't mean your blood won't boil or you won't freeze (due to intense cold in space) or burn (due to direct starlight without an atmosphere to diffuse it) or get a lethal dose of radiation.  The latest batch of rules have Life Support for such things, too:

2 CP = Safe Environment: High Radiation

2 CP = Safe Environment: Low Pressure/Vacuum

2 CP = Safe Environment: Intense Cold

2 CP = Safe Environment: Intense Heat

 

 

So, building what Ka D'Argo of Farscape can do, would look something like:

2 CP = Safe Environment: High Radiation

2 CP = Safe Environment: Low Pressure/Vacuum

2 CP = Safe Environment: Intense Cold

2 CP = Safe Environment: Intense Heat

1 CP = Extended Breathing at 1 END/Turn

------

9 CP Total

 

And Ka D'Argo could stay out there in space until he ran out of END and STUN (since he could run on STUN after his END was exhausted).

 

I think this (rules as written aka RAW) approach is a much better model of what Ka D'Argo could do  -- specifically because D'Argo had a known max time limit to work with when exposed in space -- i.e. not a variable window of time that was dependent on CON rolls.  (Obviously I watched that series...)  Moreover, I don't think the proposed tolerance to an environment is granular enough because, as you can see regarding space ... you're giving an AWFUL lot (i.e. 9pts worth of Life Support) for 3pts using your model.  Even if I were to apply a -1/4 Requires a CON roll limitation to the 9pt RAW build due to some preference to add randomness to something that had a hard limit (which RAW simulates well with END & STUN use) in the series, it'd still cost 7pts ... not 3.

 

I am hopeful this breakdown will give you motivation to consider moving to modern rules.  No sense reinventing or house ruling the wheel when a lot of this stuff has already been addressed.  Time is money ... and spending the money on the rules will save you the time of reinventing them.  (As a mental exercise: Quantify the time it cost you and your group to come up with a tolerance draft .. and then add in the time it took to type it up here and the time I and others spent responding.  Then conservatively apply minimum wage rates to that aggregate of time ... and you'll find modern rules pay for themselves very quickly in aggregate time saved, even at that low wage/rate..)

 

There are just so many improvements since the days of THE GOODMAN SCHOOL of Cost Effectiveness that I think you might want to consider a shift.  That said, 6E did away with figured characteristics, so if you're attached to that idea, go with 5ER.  Note that I'm currently playing a 5ER game and recently did a detailed analysis of 5ER and 6E differences for my group -- and am a strong advocate of 6E's changes.  Some are alien at first, but it's a LOT more streamlined.  I say this as someone who was -highly- skeptical of 6E before I did the analysis, by the way.  (Others on this forum can validate that for you, if you like.)

 

 

 

Food for thought for you.

[Doc Democracy]

I like it but it is a bit bureaucratic and time consuming without a real boost to the narrative.

 

In a thread somewhere recently someone suggested a neat idea on how to use a dice pool to create a time pressure.  I cant remember the details so am going to busk.

 

If the player has tolerance to something then give him/her/it a dice pool (number of dice based on the tolerance bought and GMs judgement).  It is rolled after the first time period.  All dice that roll a 1 are removed from the pool and the reduced pool is then retained for rolling at the next time period.

 

Now, this adds an element of risk and tension.  It is possible that all the dice will roll 1 next time though probably not likely.  A large pool dissipates quite quickly but the last dice might linger for quite a while...

 

To me this pool idea feels more dynamic and risky than a con roll that slowly degrades over time.  I think it should not be a big deal - we are talking minor amounts of points to be tolerant or totally immune.  You should set it up to provide the most fun for you and the players and possibly be stretchy on the number of dice in the pool and setting the time period after which the pool is rolled.

 

I cant remember who suggested it but it is a great idea and one I need to use soon...

 

Doc

[Christopher]

In real life a human has about 15 seconds of Consciousness in Vacuum. And you really do not want to hold your breath (that would actually kill your lungs due to pressure difference). And after about 3 minutes, you are propably dead either way. Basically once you heart stops, you propably can not be revived. As long as you get re-pressurized before that, you will likely fully recover in a few days.

 

Years ago I linked an articule about that on the Starhero Forum (something along the lines "most important question for astronauts"), but as usually I can not find something that far back. Nor can I find the source that quickly again.

Of course cinematic reality stends to be a lot more explody/gory, but even then the truth holds: You do not survive in space for long.

 

So even the Luxan "tollerance" is quite a lot of LS.

But ironically for space it does not mater so much: Unless you got somebody picking you up anyway, being alive and conscious for 15 minutes will not really help you. Not like you got any locomotion up there. It is kind of like having a lifebelt - will buy the rescuers a few minutes, but on your own you are still screwed.

[Duke Bushido]

So even the Luxan "tollerance" is quite a lot of LS.

Not really, at least not the way were doing it at the moment. A couple of 2 and 3 pt. Tolerances. He took his character sheet home with him, but I think we got what he wanted for about 7 pts and he was happy with it.

 

it does not mater so much: Unless you got somebody picking you up anyway,

This is Heroic, high-adventure Space Opera stuff! Of _course_ someone's coming to pick you up! That's why you jumped out the airlock!

 

 

Thanks again to everyone, and thank you, Christopher for the link to the lifebelt.

[Duke Bushido]

My genuine thanks to all who took time to reply with some feedback and suggestions.

 

I'm actually happy to know that we were pretty much on track with something that the newer rules have also found a need for.

 

 

I am _not_ asking (nor am I going to ask) anyone to plagiarize anything, but I would like to ask if someone can tell what specific book or books contain these new Life Support rules? If they're only in the 6e books, we'll likely just re-cost what we've come up with to make it more in line, but if they're available in one of the other sourcebooks or supplements, I might be able to justify buying that.

 

 

Thanks again!

[Duke Bushido]

I am hopeful this breakdown will give you motivation to consider moving to modern rules.

And I very much appreciate your efforts, but I'm not going to be making that move.

 

Somewhere around here I've got a copy of 5e 1, all spiral bound and everything because I was psyched. I was ready to update.

 

But I didn't. The more I read, and the more my players read, the less interested we became. There was just so much over-done detail and nitpicking and the forced-feeling attempt to redefine everything as a build of something else.

 

That, and the sheer size of it. If it takes an entire page (or more) to detail the workings of one individual power, then either you're not allowing enough player / GM discretion (ala Gygax versus House Rules) or you're over-making your point. Or-- and I don't think this was the case; I think it was over-making the point and re-creating everything as something else.

 

Then there were things like Shapeshift.... Ugh. you don't actually shift your shape, but you can sort of appear to have, buy it per sense (and the new enhanced senses thing, and eventually it was just easier to Summon a sentient Soda Machine that you could Mind Link with--- and so on and on. It was a shift away from what interested us.

 

That, and there was the size of the book itself. Toss that in front of a new player and say "okay, read this and you'll have some idea of what's going on. We play in two weeks."

 

While I've never actually handed someone a live grenade, I think I know what their face would look like.

 

Then there was a revised rule set just what? Weeks? After I'd plunked down for a couple of 5es.

 

Then there was another book. Then there was another book. Not the supplemental stuff, but the rules. Here; this gigantic volume will help you with any kinks you have in combat. Here-- here's another, smaller book that's everything you need to grasp the basics of these two bigass ones.

 

Here's the thing:

 

I was really hoping for something sweeping; something... well, you remember how big an upgrade 4th was to all that came before it? (Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that when 4th came out, all my players had 2 and 3 and no budgets to upgrade, I would likely be playing 4th. It's the closest thing, in my own opinion, to a "perfect" version of the system ever to publish.

 

But I digress. I was hoping-- particularly with all the intervening years- that 5th would be just as big a step forward, and it wasn't. At least, it didn't seem to be. It came off as 4th with combat-related stuff made cheaper, easier, and more deadly and interesting non-combat stuff made so unnecessarily complex and astronomically expensive, and then a whole bunch of crammed in, well, forgive me for saying it this way, but what felt like House Rules to address problems that, for us, never came up to begin with. The layout was confusing at times, and stuff was moved around here and there and--

 

well, it wasn't at all what my players wanted; it wasn't what I wanted, and it wasn't anywhere near what I had secretly hoped it would be.

 

 

Thing is, for the stuff that _had_ come up as issues for us in the past, we already _had_ House Rules in place. We didn't really need someone else's for that. Making it more interesting was that our rules weren't too terribly different from what ended up being published (Except for Vehicles. We do that _way_ different. To be fair, though, we had to. We had players wanting vehicles long before there were any "official" rules for that . Though honestly, uncertainties or problems with the way X worked or applied were pretty rare to begin with: when there was any chance of a question, it was almost _always_ possible to resolve it by comparing the SFX as opposed to needing more rules or more power details. 5e had all the stuff we didn't care for from 4e (less END to do pretty much anything, different methodology of determining range penalties, Reduced END making Zero END incredibly cheap-- most any Advantage that could be "combat beneficial" became cheap--

 

You know, I could go on, but this isn't the place. The book's been out so long that it's not even the official rules anymore. Suffice it to say, though, that I can't imagine an even bigger set of rules is going to resolve any of the reasons we didn't move up in when 5th came along.

 

 

 

 

  

reinventing or house ruling the wheel when a lot of this stuff has already been addressed.

That's just it: it has been addressed, over a decade ago, and to our satisfaction. Moving to a more modern version, which would require more "house rules" of what bits to junk, what to ignore, and what to treat differently, etc, would be the greater workload (and time suck) for us.

 

Using the original post for this thread as an example:

 

The reason I was excited to share was not "Look! We've made something!" as much as it was my excitement that we run into a situation not handled by the rules set we use or our own house rules: That was the first House Rule we've made in over ten years. I can open up (if I can find one) a 5e and slash through massive chunks of text with Ye Olde Sharpie of Clarity (staring with "magic auto fire" and "everything, at everybody, all at once" multiple power attacks).

 

 

And as you pointed out, the first thing I'd have to do for 6e is add in all those ol' figured characteristics.

 

No; seriously. Our forays into Sci-Fi back in the 80s taught us that link had to be broken. The characteristics still _exist_, we just assigned them bases and they are bought up normally. It was hard to justify radical alien physiologies that gained the same figured stats the exact same way that humans did.

 

 

Food for thought for you.

 

Which, again, I _truly_ appreciate. Heck, I spent so many years trying to bring the group to 4e that by the time some of them started to bite, you had to find a used book broker to score a copy.

 

 

Yes: I fully understand that there are nifty new things in much of the newer material. That's one of the reasons that I use some of the sourcebooks. I just really don't need the bulk of the new rules; that's all. I'm far enough from conventions that I might as well be on the moon, and tabletop gaming is rare enough around here (I live in farm country) that I've got to travel two or more hours one way to make two of the regular games I participate in. The odds are pretty low that I'm going to run into a group that needs me to learn the new rules.

 

 

But I do thank you for your time, your consideration, and your concern.

 

 

You people are are downright inspirational in your sense of community.

 

 

 

Duke "Keith Curtis has the Coolest Signature on the Internet" Bushido.

 

 

(I've always wanted to do that! )

[Surrealone]

Duke,

Most of the meaningful Life Support changes were in 5e, so if you've got 5e laying around, take a peek there for Life Support ideas that you might like.

 

Also, I know EXACTLY what you're saying about the sheer bulk of 6e v1 & v2.  That said, Champions Complete (aka CC ... which is a 6e book) is 242 pages, soft cover format, and strongly resembles 4e in its simplicity and uncluttered presentation.  It is, in fact, only slightly larger than the 4e book (~211 pages) was -- and is actually smaller in total pages than the 4e print that had the sourcebook material tacked onto it.  (CC and Fantasy Hero are the only in-print 6e books available, right now, that I know of; so it's used book brokers for 6e v1 & v2, now, too unless you get PDFs and do print on demand somewhere.)

 

The above said, I'm not here to sell you and I certainly have no dog in the ring -- I'm just trying to provide options.  That's part of why I provided Life Support point costs, above -- to demonstrate the merits of the newer works.  Since you have 5e on hand, what I posted above shouldn't be news to you, as the costs are the same or very close (IIRC) to what's above.

 

Wish I still had my 1e, 2e, and 3e books, btw. Those were good times.  I sent them off to used bookstores when I bought 4e ... and remember being so happy to have it all under one nice, tidy, man-portable cover.  In fact, I recall poking fun at the virtual wall of AD&D books we had used and remarking that this one little 4e book could do all that.  It was glorious -- but 1e - 3e are where my roots grew.

[Duke Bushido]

Yes; of course! I had meant to mention in my response that the _only_ 6e I was even slightly interested in was Champions Complete. Mostly because it seems like a modern-day 4e (and I've mentioned that this is my personal favorite edition of the rules) and because... Well, Derek just seems like a really great guy, and I'd like to show my support of what had to be a _ton_ of work.

[Christopher]

I had to delete teh 2nd half of my post because it was getting late and I realised a mistake in my memory of how "LS: Vacuum of Space" was build. According to 6E it is:
Self Contained Breathing (10 points)

plus

LS: Low Pressure/Vacuum (2 points)

 

It is noticeable that we can "hold our  breath" for about 30-60 seconds willfully without any problems, even as untrained persons. While there is the part that we are preparign for it (taking a deep breaths and actually holding some air), it appears Oxygen deprivation is not the likely reason we loose consciousness in Vacuum.

Wich would mean it is the lower Pressure (and the resulting formation of liquid-/gaspockets in our body) that actually causes the damage. We might even only be Oxygen deprived because our bloodflow is impeeded.

 

Once you take care of that (with the proper LS: Low Pressure/Vacuum) "Tollerating Space" might not be different from holding your breath. And the Hero system does have rules for "Holding your breath" and Drowing, 6E2 130:
"A character who holds his breath does not get
to Recover, even on Post-Segment 12. He also
expends a minimum of 1 END per Phase. He
may lower his SPD to 2 (see 6E2 17) to reduce the
amount of END he uses.
A character who runs out of END while not
breathing expends STUN as END (see 6E2 131).
A character who runs out of STUN then loses
BODY, drowning at -1 BODY/Phase. (If a
character is already at 0 STUN or below when
he runs out of END, he starts burning BODY
right away — he’s got no STUN to go through, so
he “skips” that step and begins using BODY up
quicker.)
All characters drown at a minimum SPD of 2;
so even a SPD 1 character must expend 2 END per
Turn. (Low SPD individuals react more slowly, but
they still have to breathe!)"

 

In hero terms you could hold you breath in space quite a while. However, it is the low pressure that "knocks you out" (makes you unconscius due to STUN damage, wich also sets end ot 0) that forces you into taking body quickly in vacuum.

First you need

LS: Low Pressure/Vacuum (2 points)

to make certain the low pressure does not kock you out.

Afterwards you can try to extend how long you can hold your breath. Expanded Breathing might help you here. With or without EB, you can not take recoveries (not even the free post Segment 12 one) while holding you breath.

You also spend a minimum amount of 1 END per Phase (with the option of lowering speed down to 2, in order to preserve oxygen if you got nothing to do).

1 EB moves that to 1 END per Turn minimum useage

2 EB moves that to 2 ENd per Minute minimum useage

 

So with:

LS: Low Pressure/Vacuum (2 points)

plus
LS: Expanded Breathing (2 points, 1 END per Minute)

 

You could already survive in space for END minutes.

Then burn STUN once per minute.

Then loose consciones and die in a turns too minutes (it is unclear if EB affects the Body loss after you lost all END and STUN, put let us asume it does).

 

While LS: Low Pressure has little use outside of space, Expanded Breathing would help in a lot of other situations. Like underwater, being choked, etc.

It also means that species needs a lot less complicated space gear:

If your skin already acts like a pressure suit, you could actually make a Dash for safety just holding you breath (same way humans do when trying to dive for a save spot).

You could make longer walks by just adding a helmet.

But you will not actually need a full space-suit unless it is unusual temperatures or radiation levels*. And that one does not need to be bulky, just able to correct heatflow.

If there is one species that can wear the "skintight Spacesuits", it is the Luxans (or similary 'tollerant' people).

 

 

*A common misconception is that space is cold. That is not the case. Temperature gradients (what we consider "cold") is a property of mater. The Vacuum of Space is defined as the lack of any mater. Vacuum is the best Isolator we know - and even use in Thermos Bottles and Edison Style Lightbulbs, for example.
There is some temperature loss due to fluids of the eyes, mouth and lungs evaporating. But the helmet would take care of that too. And it might just fall under "LS: Low Pressure" anyway. And all that is left is some loss due to IR radiation being emitted via skin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_exposure#Extreme_temperature_variations

[eepjr24]

Vacuum itself would cause the problems listed above. But if you are looking at anything longer than minutes there are other threats out there that are just as dangerous. High energy particles are pretty destructive at a cellular level. If you are in orbit you have to worry about being pulled in by gravity. If you are around a star you can cook pretty easily with heat build up due to lack of conduction or convection. Space debris may also be a problem if you are near orbit to some place inhabited.

 

- E

[Duke Bushido]

I have little doubt (given the size of the books, if nothing else) that there are some allowances for creating your own safe environment under these rules.

 

What are the guidelines for granularity if one decides to do such a thing?

 

Or is a GM "game appropriate" discretion sort of thing?

[Surrealone]

A common misconception is that space is cold. That is not the case. Temperature gradients (what we consider "cold") is a property of mater. The Vacuum of Space is defined as the lack of any mater. Vacuum is the best Isolator we know - and even use in Thermos Bottles and Edison Style Lightbulbs, for example.

There is some temperature loss due to fluids of the eyes, mouth and lungs evaporating. But the helmet would take care of that too. And it might just fall under "LS: Low Pressure" anyway. And all that is left is some loss due to IR radiation being emitted via skin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_exposure#Extreme_temperature_variations

This is incorrect.  eepjr24 is on the same page that I was when I listed safe environments, above ... for the same reasons, and we are correct.

 

To address your assertion of it being a misconception that space is cold, here's a quote worth reading:

"As you travel away from the Sun, the temperature of an object in space plummets. The surface temperature of Pluto can get as low as -240 Celsius, just 33 degrees above absolute zero. Clouds of gas and dust between the stars within our galaxy are only 10 to 20 degrees above absolute zero. And if you travel out far away from everything in the Universe, you can never get lower than a minimum of just 2.7 Kelvin or -270.45 Celsius. This is the temperature of the cosmic microwave background radiation, which permeates the entire Universe. In space? It’s as cold as it can get."

 

Source: http://www.universetoday.com/77070/how-cold-is-space/

 

So:

• Unless you're near a heat source (such as a star) it is likely to be too intensely cold to survive  -- unless you have the appropriate LS to make you safe from intense cold.
• And if you're near a star without being in just the right place (where it's neither too far to receive enough radiation to warm you, nor too close so that you get too much radiation to warm you), its radiation emissions are likely to generate too much heat within you to survive -- unless you have the appropriate LS to make you safe from intense heat.
• And even if you are in -exactly- the right spot in terms of distance from the star relative to heat generated in your body from its radiation output ... the radiation will likely mess you up on a cellular/DNA level despite you being neither too hot nor cold -- unless you have the appropriate LS to make you safe from high radiation.

[Duke Bushido]

A bit aside, but if I could ask--

 

The 2pt "safe environments--" Does this mean that the character is perfectly safe in these environments with no ill-effects at all? I don't mean "well, sure, except it's compounded by other conditions that may be present," etc, etc.

 

I mean if a character takes a 2pt Safe Environment: Vacuum, then is that character, assuming he's somewhere safe from radiation and extreme cold and has the means (or lacks the need) to breath, then that character will be fine in the vacuum, forever and ever, until he needs to eat or something?

 

Or, going with a more simple environment: intense radiation. If he pays 2 pts for this as a safe environment, is he truly perfectly safe to set up housekeeping in a zone of intense radiation?

[Christopher]

I have little doubt (given the size of the books, if nothing else) that there are some allowances for creating your own safe environment under these rules.

 

What are the guidelines for granularity if one decides to do such a thing?

 

Or is a GM "game appropriate" discretion sort of thing?

You can of course create your own LS. However granularity is not really part of LS. It tends to be "all or Nothing" by nature.

Defense against NND type damage (build attacks and environmental effects alike) is the main reason.

 

A more granular approach that many people have used in heroic games was re-defining LS/Environmental effects to work like/against Power Defense.

i.e., a Dwarf would have "10 Power Defense, only vs Poision(-?)" and all the Poision would be build to work against Power Defense (no LS: Life Support, NND).

NND can still work here by the way! It is a extra limitation that means any amount of Defense will fully block the attack. That means the Poision would have no effect against anyone with any form of Power Defense vs Poision. But still work normally against everyone else.

 

You can totally slap "just NND" to a Blast vs ED or PD. Just means everyone with any amount of PD or ED will not be affected at all. Wich due to the free PD everyone get's is literally everyone. Granted this is an extreme case where the values propably do not hold up. Switching to work against rPD, NND might be more usefull (anyone with any resistant defenses is not affected at all; anyone with is affected fully).

 

 

This is incorrect.  eepjr24 is on the same page that I was when I listed safe environments, above ... for the same reasons, and we are correct.

 

To address your assertion of it being a misconception that space is cold, here's a quote worth reading:

"As you travel away from the Sun, the temperature of an object in space plummets. The surface temperature of Pluto can get as low as -240 Celsius, just 33 degrees above absolute zero. Clouds of gas and dust between the stars within our galaxy are only 10 to 20 degrees above absolute zero. And if you travel out far away from everything in the Universe, you can never get lower than a minimum of just 2.7 Kelvin or -270.45 Celsius. This is the temperature of the cosmic microwave background radiation, which permeates the entire Universe. In space? It’s as cold as it can get."

Planets get between 95 and 99% of thier energy from the Sun. And they had literal Billions of years to radiate any "leftover" heat since thier formation. Even with the limited amount of energy one can shunt using just the IR spectrum, that is plenty of time to cool off.

Humans get 99% of our energy from our Motabolism wich is only indirectly based on the sun. We are walking Bio-reactors with decent fuel reserves. If you do not stop the metabolism dead (lack of Oxygen or stopped bloodflow) and ignore high-velocity space debris, we could in theory survive quite some time out there.

 

What kills us in the Arctis is not the temperature - but all the heat we loose to all the other mater (air and ground) surrounding us.

If there is no mater to conduct the heat away from us, all we "loose" will be in form of IR radiation and Liquid Evaporation. And we humans are not exactly designed to regulate our temperature with only that.

 

You are basically comparing a Brown Dwarf (Human) to a Gas Giant (anything without Metabolism) there. It is a easy mistake to make, but it still does not hold up.

[TheDarkness]

What does all this science say about Arnold's eyes popping out in Total Recall?

 

(Ignoring the possibility that he was only imagining all of it).

[Christopher]

What does all this science say about Arnold's eyes popping out in Total Recall?

 

(Ignoring the possibility that he was only imagining all of it).

Mostly it says something like this:

"As far as certain death in a science fiction plot line goes, being ejected into the vacuum of space is more than a pretty sure thing. A shove out of the air lock by a mutinous lieutenant or a vicious rip in a space suit, and your average movie victim is guaranteed to die quickly and quietly, though with fewer exploding body parts than screenwriters might have you believe.

 

In reality, however, animal experiments and human accidents have shown that people can likely survive exposure to vacuum conditions for at least a couple of minutes. Not that you would remain conscious long enough to rescue yourself, but if your predicament was accidental, there could be time for fellow crew members to rescue and repressurize you with few ill effects."

No exploding bodyparts, no flashfreezing all over, no lung comming out of your mouth.

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Christopher.

 

But upon re-reading this thread a couple of times, I think I may be either missing something or miscommunicating something.

 

 

What we had set out to create wasn't a "Safe Environment." We were not looking for the character to be perfectly fine setting up shop in some truly exotic location. We had in mind a character who could endure an environment for much longer than other characters, but who would ultimately find it just as fatal, if not as immediately threatening.

 

 

Akin to the way a person who can hold his breath for twenty minutes (or who just flat out only actually _breathes_ once every twenty minutes) doesn't find a hallway filled with poison gas to be as immediately threatening as his companions might, but still-- he does have to breath eventually.

 

That's what we were trying to simulate. It was actually _easier_ to simulate under the old rules: as we hammered out the other night, we just charge less for the relevant LS and define what the lowered price entails. However, if the stuff posted above is accurate for the new rules: pay 2 pts to buy a house in near solar orbit, etc.--

 

well, that's actually going to be a bit of a problem for us: there's not any room for granularity. Certainly we could say "for one point, you can endure an environment of hard radiation for x time," but at half the price, what's half of "I'm good here forever?" And what's just a tiny bit more or less effectiveness?

 

 

Granted: I understand what the new rules are trying to do: you can specify a range of environments for less than the original cost (or close to the original cost) of "immune to everything" or "no metabolic requirements whatsoever." But in doing so, there seems to be a loss of opportunity for characters who want to be Spock in the radiation chamber or D'argo on the outside of the ship or that guy in the Guardians of the Galaxy movie doing the thing with the shuttle and the orbit and I really don't even remember just what it was at the moment.

 

Does anyone see where I'm going here? Or can anyone point out something the elephant I'm overlooking?

 

 

"Rescue you and repressurize you"

 

 

What's a reasonable damage effect for "Mega-Bends?"

 

[Surrealone]

A bit aside, but if I could ask--

 

The 2pt "safe environments--" Does this mean that the character is perfectly safe in these environments with no ill-effects at all? I don't mean "well, sure, except it's compounded by other conditions that may be present," etc, etc.

 

I mean if a character takes a 2pt Safe Environment: Vacuum, then is that character, assuming he's somewhere safe from radiation and extreme cold and has the means (or lacks the need) to breath, then that character will be fine in the vacuum, forever and ever, until he needs to eat or something?

Yes, it does mean he's perfectly safe in a vacuum with no ill conditions.  He still has to breathe, though -- something you can't do in a vacuum.  And this perfectly simulates Ka D'Argo's ability, as he was perfectly fine in space regardless of being nowhere near a star (cold), too close to one (heat & radiation), and within a vacuum.  i.e. What limited Ka D'Argo's Luxan ability was how long he cold hold his breath ... hence the build I initially provided -- wherein END (and eventually STUN) are consumed over time (per the rules for holding one's breath) and, thus, set the limit on how long someone like Ka D'Argo (who had appropriate Safe Environments) can survive in space.  As a bonus, someone who is injured (i.e. not full stun) can't hold his/her breath as long as someone who is uninjured using that approach ... since END will be spent first and when it's at 0 STUN will be spent in lieu of END.  (And you can't take recoveries while holding your breath, btw...)

 

In reality, however, animal experiments and human accidents have shown that people can likely survive exposure to vacuum conditions for at least a couple of minutes. Not that you would remain conscious long enough to rescue yourself, but if your predicament was accidental, there could be time for fellow crew members to rescue and repressurize you with few ill effects."

No exploding bodyparts, no flashfreezing all over, no lung comming out of your mouth.

Yes you can survive for a bit.  However, the moment your body is fully exposed to a vacuum, all fluids in your body begin to boil away.  If you actually hold your breath instead of exhaling, your lungs WILL explode because the pressure within them is far greater than the pressure outside of them and the fluids (both gaseous and liquid) within your body are trying to achieve a pressure equilibrium.

 

Here's an article on it WITH a video: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160617-why-your-blood-would-boil-in-space 

 

Not only does it deal with the boiling away of fluids (both gaseous and liquid), it also happens to talk about temperature, completely debunking your assertion that cold is not an issue in space.  The video is worth a watch, as it shows a lab experiment where fluids are boiled away by a vacuum.  Imagine trying to hold your breath while the air in your lungs begins doing what is shown in the video.  You realistically can't.  Instead, you have to do what a diver at 4ATM pressure does when he rises to the surface of the sea (0ATM pressure) -- steadily exhale.  This allows the gas to escape the lungs as it expands during pressure equalization ... and in no way reduces the amount of time said diver ... or someone in space ... can survive without taking a breath of fresh air.  (Thus, breath-holding rules still apply when doing END/STUN bookwork ... but you don't actually lock the gas into your lungs, you release it as it expands.)

 

 

 

Planets get between 95 and 99% of thier energy from the Sun. And they had literal Billions of years to radiate any "leftover" heat since thier formation. Even with the limited amount of energy one can shunt using just the IR spectrum, that is plenty of time to cool off.

Humans get 99% of our energy from our Motabolism wich is only indirectly based on the sun. We are walking Bio-reactors with decent fuel reserves. If you do not stop the metabolism dead (lack of Oxygen or stopped bloodflow) and ignore high-velocity space debris, we could in theory survive quite some time out there.

 

What kills us in the Arctis is not the temperature - but all the heat we loose to all the other mater (air and ground) surrounding us.

If there is no mater to conduct the heat away from us, all we "loose" will be in form of IR radiation and Liquid Evaporation. And we humans are not exactly designed to regulate our temperature with only that.

I don't know what you're on about with planets and such, as it's immaterial.  Here, go do some reading on NASA space suits: http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/5-8/features/nasa-knows/what-is-a-spacesuit-58.html

 

From that article:

"In Earth orbit, conditions can be as cold as minus 250 degrees Fahrenheit. In the sunlight, they can be as hot as 250 degrees. A spacesuit protects astronauts from those extreme temperatures."

 

You seem to think we make enough heat to just stay warm if there's no matter around us.  That's patently false.  You can and will freeze in the vacuum of space -- and that is exactly what would happen to you if you had Safe Environment: Low Pressure/Vacuum but lacked Safe Environment: Intense Cold ... unless of course you were close enough to a star to receive ample enough radiation to be warmed by it, in which case you'd better have Safe Environment: Intense Heat ... unless you are EXACTLY the right distance from the star such that you are not overheated by the radiation it emits.  (Again, see the quote from the NASA article, above, where without sun exposure while in Earth orbit it's too cold, so a suit with heating is needed ... and with sun exposure it's too hot, so a suit with cooling is needed -- hence the design of the suits astronauts wear.)

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Surrealone.

 

I appreciate the clarification.

 

 

Duke

[Christopher]

Akin to the way a person who can hold his breath for twenty minutes (or who just flat out only actually _breathes_ once every twenty minutes) doesn't find a hallway filled with poison gas to be as immediately threatening as his companions might, but still-- he does have to breath eventually.

 

That's what we were trying to simulate. It was actually _easier_ to simulate under the old rules: as we hammered out the other night, we just charge less for the relevant LS and define what the lowered price entails. However, if the stuff posted above is accurate for the new rules: pay 2 pts to buy a house in near solar orbit, etc.--

 

well, that's actually going to be a bit of a problem for us: there's not any room for granularity. Certainly we could say "for one point, you can endure an environment of hard radiation for x time," but at half the price, what's half of "I'm good here forever?" And what's just a tiny bit more or less effectiveness?

Granularity needs a wide range of values. Wich means a rather high total cost for full LS. That is why we only got detailed stuff on breathing.

LS: Self Contained breathing (full immunity) costs 10 points.

Save Environment is half of that (5 points)

And extended breathing is defined as "anything less then 5 points".

 

You could always just increase the points and costs by a factor of 10. That would give you instant granularity room.

You could also consider accounting for this stuff down in the first decimal place. i.e. 1.3 points worth of LS: Vacuum and 1.3 points worth of Cold Environment would be 2.6 Points worth of LS total, rounded to 3.

 

The only way I could think of modelling resistance would be to make you immune to the Pressure (what kills you fast). And leave "surving" to the normal suffocation rules (wich kill you slower if you do nothing and can be expanded upon).

Noticeably the Expanded breathing would also help in other situations - like everytime you need to hold your breath.

 

 

Yes you can survive for a bit.  However, the moment your body is fully exposed to a vacuum, all fluids in your body begin to boil away.  If you actually hold your breath instead of exhaling, your lungs WILL explode because the pressure within them is far greater than the pressure outside of them and the fluids (both gaseous and liquid) within your body are trying to achieve a pressure equilibrium.

 

Here's an article on it WITH a video: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160617-why-your-blood-would-boil-in-space 

 

Not only does it deal with the boiling away of fluids (both gaseous and liquid), it also happens to talk about temperature, completely debunking your assertion that cold is not an issue in space.  The video is worth a watch, as it shows a lab experiment where fluids are boiled away by a vacuum.  Imagine trying to hold your breath while the air in your lungs begins doing what is shown in the video.  You realistically can't.  Instead, you have to do what a diver at 4ATM pressure does when he rises to the surface of the sea (0ATM pressure) -- steadily exhale.  This allows the gas to escape the lungs as it expands during pressure equalization ... and in no way reduces the amount of time said diver ... or someone in space ... can survive without taking a breath of fresh air.  (Thus, breath-holding rules still apply when doing END/STUN bookwork ... but you don't actually lock the gas into your lungs, you release it as it expands.)

 

 

 

I don't know what you're on about with planets and such, as it's immaterial.  Here, go do some reading on NASA space suits: http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/5-8/features/nasa-knows/what-is-a-spacesuit-58.html

 

From that article:

"In Earth orbit, conditions can be as cold as minus 250 degrees Fahrenheit. In the sunlight, they can be as hot as 250 degrees. A spacesuit protects astronauts from those extreme temperatures."

-250°C and +250°C measured where?

What mater did they put the thermometer too? The spacesuit or the spaceship? How long was said mater inside/outside the sun? What was it's heat regulation?

If they measured only incomming radiation, over what surface area did they measure it?

 

There are only two ways to measure "heat":

Measure how much heat is flowing out of a piece of mater.

Measure how much Infrared (and other) radiation is passing through a certain space. Do not forget to account for reshifting over long distances.

 

There is quite a difference between actuall and perceived temperature, due to imprecisions of our sensory system:

The still air around you and the air moved by your fan have exactly the same temprature. What leads to the  cooling is the wind breaking up the thin air-layer around your skin, wich normally acts as an isolator.

 

Yes, fluids seemingly "boil" if you lower the pressure. Common fact that even high altitude climbers known. "Boiling" is the point at wich Heat energy exceeds the atmospheric pressure (wich is the only pressure on most fluids outside your body). And if you trop the pressure to 0 or very close, that point goes way down it might easily go under average room temperature.

However the fluids inside your body can not boil that easily. They are still under pressure for the blood vessels and the heart. Liquids in eyes, mouth and lungs are the only ones actually exposed to vacuum. The rest is still (mostly) pressurized inside your body.

[Duke Bushido]

You could also consider accounting for this stuff down in the first decimal place. i.e. 1.3 points worth of LS: Vacuum and 1.3 points worth of Cold Environment would be 2.6 Points worth of LS total, rounded to 3.

Ha! That's exactly what I've been working on this morning!

 

Sure; I get the breathing stuff: there's room to go lower, essentially. I just wish there was a way to "go lower" on the other stuff: Long-lived Characters or races are not necessarily "immortal" or "immune to aging." It would be nice to have a couple of steps in between. A race might not go from "needs to eat like anyone else" to "doesn't need to eat, ever again."

[Surrealone]

​

 

-250°C and +250°C measured where?

What mater did they put the thermometer too? The spacesuit or the spaceship? How long was said mater inside/outside the sun? What was it's heat regulation?

If they measured only incomming radiation, over what surface area did they measure it?

 

Ask NASA.  Argue it with them, too, if you like, but I think common sense strongly suggests that without temperature controls in their vacuum-proof and air-providing suits, US Astronauts would roast in +250°C and freeze in -250°C ... but thankfully the suit is a focus providing SE's for intense heat and intense cold in addition to the SE for Low Pressure/Vacuum and the ability to breathe for a while.  I'm sure they can actually prove it, since that's what you seem to require.
 

 

Yes, fluids seemingly "boil" if you lower the pressure. Common fact that even high altitude climbers known. "Boiling" is the point at wich Heat energy exceeds the atmospheric pressure (wich is the only pressure on most fluids outside your body). And if you trop the pressure to 0 or very close, that point goes way down it might easily go under average room temperature.

However the fluids inside your body can not boil that easily. They are still under pressure for the blood vessels and the heart. Liquids in eyes, mouth and lungs are the only ones actually exposed to vacuum. The rest is still (mostly) pressurized inside your body.

For maybe 10 seconds... and if you try to fight the equalization of pressure of fluids (both gaseous and liquid) through the walls of your cells and out into space (say, by holding your breath), you're going to make it matters worse.

 

I'm a certified diver who is necessarily well-versed in the ideal gas law's potential application with regard to human physiology.  Let's take a diver at 4ATM pressure (~132ft deep under water) who ascends at a rate of 1 foot per second while exhaling all the way (this is standard operating procedure) to 0 ATM pressure (sea level).  This diver's slow ascent is intentional, as it helps (but doesn't completely) prevent:

• gasses that are in a liquid state within the bloodstream from coming out of solution to form bubbles that block blood flow -- a medical condition called an arterial gas embolism;
• gasses that are in a liquid state within the fluids in the body from coming out of solution to form bubbles under the skin (usually near the neck and collarbone -- as these are higher than the torso, legs, feet, etc. during an ascent) which can erupt/crack at sea level when the skin is touched -- a medical condition known as subcutaneous emphysema;
• gasses that are in a liquid state within the fluids in the body near the lungs coming out of solution to form bubbles (that merge into one big bubble) outside the sides of the lungs such that pressure is applied inward on the lungs causing collapse -- a medical condition known as pneumothorax.
• and gasses that are in a liquid state within the fluids in the body from coming out of solution to form bubbles near the heart muscles that result in a cessation of heart function -- a medical condition known as mediastinal emphysema.

Even at sea level, after a dive, a diver is not safe -- as s/he is not supposed to fly within 24 hours of a dive due to nitrogen build-up in the blood ... nitrogen that can easily come out of solution during the rapid ascent of a plane from 0 ATM pressure (at sea level) to 35,000ft above sea level (-4.2ATM pressure aka 3.46psi) -- causing any/all of the aforementioned.

 

Now that you know what can happen if you change from 4ATM pressure to 0ATM pressure in LESS than 132 seconds (~2 mins) ... with the probability of a medical issue rising as the amount of time you take to change pressures decreases ... consider what happens when you go from the standard 0ATM pressue aka 14.7psi at sea level (which is what you'd use as an ideal target for pressurization of a plane, a space vehicle, a space suit, etc.) to 0psi (i.e. a vacuum) ... instantly.  And do note that all of the above entail gaseous fluids in the body coming out of solution -- i.e. boiling.

 

To me -- someone who understands the impact of the body's fluids boiling with even small, slow pressure changes -- the impact of this occurrence during a rapid/instantenous pressure difference is quite clear.  Hopefully you've found this informative.

[Doc Democracy]

Ha! That's exactly what I've been working on this morning! :DSure; I get the breathing stuff: there's room to go lower, essentially. I just wish there was a way to "go lower" on the other stuff: Long-lived Characters or races are not necessarily "immortal" or "immune to aging." It would be nice to have a couple of steps in between. A race might not go from "needs to eat like anyone else" to "doesn't need to eat, ever again."

You know, these things cost very few points to begin with. If you want incredibly long lived rather than immune to aging, then list it that way for the same points. If you get player pout, then give them a point off. It is nothing much to worry about in the grand scheme of things. I prefer this kind of micro-gifting of a point rather than trying to come up with more complex schemes...