Hero System Lucky 7th Edition?

[steriaca]

Well, I admit "asking for handouts on Kickstarter" is insulting. And I know the entire "if not fully funded, we don't take your money and you don't get the product" idea, but since I currently can't afford anything, it is like stating "you must be above lower class to play".

 

I hope that the minimum wage gets incresed soon. $15 per hour is better to support Hero than $9 per hour.

[zslane]

Do you think going the System Resource Document(SRD) route to make the base rules more accessible would help matters?

 

I don't see the SRD as a product intended to make the rules more accessible. It would exist solely to make the rules fully documented. It would serve as the ultimate reference source for every tiny detail of the system. It's the kind of thing you turn to when you have mastered the game and want access to every nuanced nook and cranny of the design. I see it as the equivalent of the single-volume 5eR BBB, but without all the examples cluttering up the side margins. And if written correctly, it would be a single volume again, preferably a living document in PDF form that could also be ordered POD.

[Tasha]

The only small company that is using the open source model is Evil Hat Games with their Fate games. I think they HAVE to go open source since FATE is an iteration of the FUDGE system. My point is that Hero/DOJ looked at the SRD model and decided that it didn't fit. What they did do was to make licencing way easier. Same thing as PEG did with Savage Worlds. They wanted to keep some control over who published products for the system, but made it easy to get a licence to publish.

Pinnacle's Savage Worlds is totally closed source and uses the One Rulebook + Genre Supplements + World Supplements model and Kicks ass doing so. Their World Supplements tend to be both World and Campaign all in one. With a plotted out path for the campaign to follow and even side episodes that can be used to take a break from the campaign.  They call those Plot Point Campaigns and are a hallmark of their marketing model

 I wish people would both Evangelize the system for companies that make supplements for both Savage Worlds and Mutants and Masterminds (or any company that makes supplements for multiple Systems). Then when they make the product we must support that product by buying it. It breaks my heart to see companies that create suppements for Savage Worlds, Icons, Mutants and Masterminds, Fate etc all for the same product, but then don't have a conversion for Hero. That's because people think the system is dead. As the core of Hero's fanbase we have to change that perception. Evangelizing is all of us who buy Hero System products to go to publishers who publish multiple System supplements asking them if they had considered doing a Hero system version. Enough of us do that to the same publishers and they might try to publish a conversion. When they do, we buy that product. We have to Prove there is a market here.

[Cantriped]

Do you think going the System Resource Document(SRD) route to make the base rules more accessible would help matters?

An SRD can only be published online if the Game is released under some version of the Open Game License. The problem with HERO Games doing so is:

 

The OGL was designed to allow companies other than Wizards of the Coast to publish content for their game system without infringing upon the other intellectual properties that WotC held in the process (such as the Forgotten Realms campaign setting). This worked for WotC, for a while, because they were large and powerful enough to keep publishing new core rulebooks, and new campaign settings of their own, never mind all of the other merchandise like novels and such. They had detailed and interesting worlds that people liked using... Then Paizo came along and essentially stole their game-engine and consumer base whole-cloth with Pathfinder, which was also released under the OGL (because it has to be), and at the time was considered to be a better product than WotC was releasing with 4th edition.

 

If HERO Games were to release the CC/FHC version of the rules under the OGL they would literally be hammering the nails in their own coffin. A company like Paizo with more time/money/fame than them would simply change the engine-name, alter a few inconsequential details, and republish. The game-engine itself is the only thing HERO Games has left that is worth anything. they can't afford to give it up. Though I do hope when HERO Games eventually goes bankrupt they are kind enough to us as their fans to release their system under an OGL, or better yet, make it public domain. At least that way the engine will live on, even if only on the internet.

 

Besides all of that though, HERO Games isn't being stingy with their License, as near as I can tell just about anybody can acquire a license to publish material for their products free of charge or royalties. Giving HERO Games most of the benefits of having an OGL. The issues I see are that they don't have enough third party publishers writing content for the HERO System, nobody is advertising the HERO System, there isn't enough ready-to-play content for 6th edition, or CC/FHC, to entice new players to learn a system which is fundamentally different from almost everything else on the market... and as near as I can tell, most of us aren't even using the "latest edition", or supporting the few third party publishers writing for it anyway.

[zslane]

Somehow the notion of an SRD has become conflated with open sourcing the game system, but that's not at all what I'm suggesting. When I refer to an SRD, I only refer to the content of a single rules volume with everything in it. I don't mean to suggest that it become the basis for a Hero System equivalent to the d20 open game platform.

 

The SRD I speak of is merely a replacement for the two-volume 6e1/6e2 in which the entire system, in all its glory, is documented and detailed. This is for veteran players who are well-versed in the DIY nature of the game and want a single "game system bible" from which to build their campaigns. And, in theory, any new product line built around a campaign setting would use the SRD as the underlying architecture, but would present only those portions of it as would be necessary for that product line. This abridged format would be especially noticed in any "Starter Kit" that a product line might start out with.

[Cantriped]

It isn't a conflation Zslane. The concept of an SRD (in the online sense) was created by the Open Game License as a necessity for third party publishers to have access to the material released under the OGL in a format they could legally reference and quote large sections of... Furthermore, releasing under an OGL isn't the same as Open Sourcing the game engine; that would be equivalent to making HERO System Public Domain.

 

Champions Complete/Fantasy HERO Complete is likely to be the closest thing to the kind of reference document you are speaking of that we are ever likely to see.

 

No, they are different presentations of the 6e rules. They are one step between my "Game Powered by Hero" model and the "System + Genre Book" model.
...
The sole change to 6e rules the author of Champions Complete claimed to make was the removal of Classes of Mind. All else was revised presentation, including a culling of elements rarely used in the genre in question. I assume the Fantasy Hero Complete mandate was similar. I am biased in regards to ranged martial arts - I thought they should be in the 6e core rules - but that would have made the 6e core rules bigger, as well as more complete.

There is enough different to call it 6.5th edition in my opinion. Which I admitted above was only an opinion, CC/FHC still calls itself 6th edition, regardless of wether I agree. The removal of classes of minds, and the consolidation of all of the "exploded" skills like Survival is enough by itself to make most of the stat blocks in the HERO System Bestiary or Champions Villains Vol I-III inaccurate.

[zslane]

Okay, well, in the interests of not confusing matters with ambiguous terminology, I won't use SRD anymore. How about CSB for Complete System Bible? I mean, the actual term is irrelevant so long as we all understand what I'm referring to.

 

Under 4e it was called the HSR, and it was released as its own book and as the first half of the BBB. Under 5e it was the BBB exclusively. Under 6e it is two separate volumes which are no longer available in hardcopy form. It is not CC or FHC despite the presence of the word "Complete" in their titles. This is plainly evident by the fact that whenever anyone asks where to go to get the "full system" rules, the answer is invariably 6e1/6e2.

 

In any discussion regarding a hypothetical 7th edition, my stance is that the rules need to exist in two forms. One is the CSB which contains everything, and is the basis of every other product (third party or otherwise) that comes out. Purchasing it would be optional, and largely of value only to hardcore players who really want to get into the nitty gritty of the system to build their campaign worlds (and product authors who want to do the same). The other form is that of a Campaign Book which is sort of like CC or FHC but is tightly focused on a particular campaign setting rather than a broad genre. MHI is the best example of what I am referring to.

 

The only organizational problem with MHI is that it sometimes makes references to rules that are not within its pages. But that is easy to avoid with proper editing. The general idea behind MHI is exactly the direction I think a 7th edition should take. Start with a really cool campaign setting and release an MHI-type core campaign book for it, with only that portion of the full Hero System rules that are necessary for that setting. It, and the products that would follow, would provide all kinds of pre-built stuff using the systems defined in the CSB, but simplified in more playable terms so that gamers can get right to the action without having to worry so much about how everything is built (they really only need to know how to use them in play).

 

The usual complaint about a setting-focused product line is that the rulebook wouldn't contain "all the rules" of the full Hero System, and without something to provide the full system, hardcore players and product authors would be understandably frustrated. That's why a CSB is a necessary document to have in addition to the setting-focused book(s), even if only in PDF form.

[Cantriped]

I've never felt like I'm missing out on all that much using CC/FHC over the original 6th edition rulebooks; with the exception of the Wind Table... it irks me they omitted it from both CC/FHC... Most of the things I've wanted that weren't in CC/FHC were things they published in later source books, like the resource point rules, or the rules for designing martial maneuvers.

 

Okay, well, in the interests of not confusing matters with ambiguous terminology, I won't use SRD anymore. How about CSB for Complete System Bible? I mean, the actual term is irrelevant so long as we all understand what I'm referring to.

...

The usual complaint about a setting-focused product line is that the rulebook wouldn't contain "all the rules" of the full Hero System, and without something to provide the full system, hardcore players and product authors would be understandably frustrated. That's why a CSB is a necessary document to have in addition to the setting-focused book(s), even if only in PDF form.

Okay, getting away from my own opinion about CC/FHC. If a HERO System 7th "CSB" were published, I would be strongly opposed to reprinting any of it in a Campaign Setting or Genre source book. That is exactly why I'll never purchase MHI, even though I'm interesting in the setting. Printing costs are often (at least partially) based on page count, and shipping costs are based upon weight. It doesn't seem fair or useful to waste pages and our consumer's limited funds reprinting material we are assuming our consumers will already have.

 

From my perspective, I already have both CC and FHC (and of the two I prefer FHC for many reasons), I don't feel the need to pay for the rules a third time (though I probably would if they Errata'd FHC and reprinted it). On the other hand, I really liked my Turakain Age source book for 5th, and I would be happy to buy such a book to supplement FHC if it contained a full setting, a campaign, and a good stable of sample characters/creatures.

[zslane]

A shiny new 7th edition organized for this brave new world we fantasize about would have to strike a balance between appealing to hardcore veterans who only want one rulebook with everything in it, and beginners and "Rules Light" aficianados who don't want a CSB but instead want a "streamlined" and stripped-down variant that is specific to the setting they are buying into.

 

In order to satisfy both types of customers you need both types of product. It is necessary for the setting-based rulebook(s) to duplicate content from the CSB, at least to a degree. But anyone who is a DIY type will just buy the CSB and a genre book (like Champions or Fantasy Hero) and then build their own campaign setting. The setting-based product line wouldn't be aimed at them per se, and they wouldn't have to buy any of it (nor are they likely to want to).

 

Such an arrangement might annoy the I-Hate-Paying-For-Duplicated-Material types, but I think it would be a small price to pay in order to draw in a whole new generation of Hero System players who would likely never face that dilemma.

[steriaca]

A shiny new 7th edition organized for this brave new world we fantasize about would have to strike a balance between appealing to hardcore veterans who only want one rulebook with everything in it, and beginners and "Rules Light" aficianados who don't want a CSB but instead want a "streamlined" and stripped-down variant that is specific to the setting they are buying into.

 

(snip)

 

Such an arrangement might annoy the I-Hate-Paying-For-Duplicated-Material types, but I think it would be a small price to pay in order to draw in a whole new generation of Hero System players who would likely never face that dilemma.

So, we all should bite the bullet and admit that this is the way to go.

[Cantriped]

I won't admit to any such thing... but my personal publishing preferences are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Whoever ends up producing such a product should (and likely will) go with the method that provides them with the greatest potential for profit (whatever that is). Factors such as the cost of production and distribution, and which method appeals to the largest consumer base are all far more important than the opinions of a few dedicated fans.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, I admit "asking for handouts on Kickstarter" is insulting. And I know the entire "if not fully funded, we don't take your money and you don't get the product" idea, but since I currently can't afford anything, it is like stating "you must be above lower class to play".

Simple economic reality says that people have to spend money on the product for those who produce the product to make a living doing so.

 

I hope that the minimum wage gets incresed soon. $15 per hour is better to support Hero than $9 per hour.

Politics and socio-economics? [bites tongue - OUCH!]

 

 

A shiny new 7th edition organized for this brave new world we fantasize about would have to strike a balance between appealing to hardcore veterans who only want one rulebook with everything in it, and beginners and "Rules Light" aficianados who don't want a CSB but instead want a "streamlined" and stripped-down variant that is specific to the setting they are buying into.

 

In order to satisfy both types of customers you need both types of product. It is necessary for the setting-based rulebook(s) to duplicate content from the CSB, at least to a degree. But anyone who is a DIY type will just buy the CSB and a genre book (like Champions or Fantasy Hero) and then build their own campaign setting. The setting-based product line wouldn't be aimed at them per se, and they wouldn't have to buy any of it (nor are they likely to want to).

 

Such an arrangement might annoy the I-Hate-Paying-For-Duplicated-Material types, but I think it would be a small price to pay in order to draw in a whole new generation of Hero System players who would likely never face that dilemma.

The challenge is identifying which group(s) have, and will spend, money on the model they prefer, or the model that is close enough to what they prefer, to allow Hero to get the sales needed to make producing the products worthwhile.

[assault]

PS238 didn't sell, apparently, but that's not surprising. It was a very niche product, focused on a fairly obscure webcomic, and oriented towards playing kids rather than generic superheroes. (And licensing cuts profit margins, since the money is being split).

 

Nonetheless, it was actually pretty close to what I would publish if it was my money.

 

Cut the licensed stuff and replace it with Champions Universe material. Change the character generation back to standard superheroes. Edit for loose ends.

 

The result would be a stand-alone "superhero roleplaying in the Champions Universe" game.

 

It still wouldn't sell, of course, but it would be a step in the right direction, IMHO.

[Nolgroth]

It still wouldn't sell, of course, but it would be a step in the right direction, IMHO.

 

I dunno. It wouldn't break any records, but it might actually sell pretty well IF the marketing campaign was large enough. It might even become that gateway into Hero selling other products. 

 

Sadly, both Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete failed to do what we really needed. Instead of creating a product that you could use "out of the box" they created another tool for the toolkit. We already had a rules book and the genre treatment books. We didn't need those. We needed to have something that could capture the imagination. Something that had setting information, pre-built powers, NPCs, and adventures. I love the economized rules from those two products, but ultimately they were a pale rehash of stuff that was already there.

 

I like your idea better.

[TheDarkness]

A shiny new 7th edition organized for this brave new world we fantasize about would have to strike a balance between appealing to hardcore veterans who only want one rulebook with everything in it, and beginners and "Rules Light" aficianados who don't want a CSB but instead want a "streamlined" and stripped-down variant that is specific to the setting they are buying into.

 

In order to satisfy both types of customers you need both types of product. It is necessary for the setting-based rulebook(s) to duplicate content from the CSB, at least to a degree. But anyone who is a DIY type will just buy the CSB and a genre book (like Champions or Fantasy Hero) and then build their own campaign setting. The setting-based product line wouldn't be aimed at them per se, and they wouldn't have to buy any of it (nor are they likely to want to).

 

Such an arrangement might annoy the I-Hate-Paying-For-Duplicated-Material types, but I think it would be a small price to pay in order to draw in a whole new generation of Hero System players who would likely never face that dilemma.

I think key is that the full rules should not be the first release, the rules-light version should. The full rules will not suddenly sell a lot more, marketing or no, what is needed is a version, focused on a popular genre, that is worth sinking marketing money into as far as return on investment. As I said before, a game where the builds are invisible, prebought packages, where certain people and baddies will have cool things that not everyone can get, BUT, if you buy the new handy Book of Builds, you can totally build it yourself?

 

Part of the advertising is the game itself. Even hardcore Hero people could totally make use of a shell system in which they are doing no math on builds except addition(which premade excel or html character sheets would do for them), especially for mooks or NPCs and villains who aren't the special touch kind. And, if the stock build game sold, then those would be new players to buy the full rules in order to tweek.

 

And frankly, fantasy is probably the best genre to focus on first. It not only deals with issues that all the other genres would also have to deal with, as far as mechanics, but it simply is a genre that, if people rpg, they also happen to play just because, well, they're tabletop gamers.

[Tasha]

A shiny new 7th edition organized for this brave new world we fantasize about would have to strike a balance between appealing to hardcore veterans who only want one rulebook with everything in it, and beginners and "Rules Light" aficianados who don't want a CSB but instead want a "streamlined" and stripped-down variant that is specific to the setting they are buying into.

 

In order to satisfy both types of customers you need both types of product. It is necessary for the setting-based rulebook(s) to duplicate content from the CSB, at least to a degree. But anyone who is a DIY type will just buy the CSB and a genre book (like Champions or Fantasy Hero) and then build their own campaign setting. The setting-based product line wouldn't be aimed at them per se, and they wouldn't have to buy any of it (nor are they likely to want to).

 

Such an arrangement might annoy the I-Hate-Paying-For-Duplicated-Material types, but I think it would be a small price to pay in order to draw in a whole new generation of Hero System players who would likely never face that dilemma.

 

The reason that 6e1 and 6e2 is usually quoted from is that it IS such a great resource that covers nearly every situation that you can come up with. The examples are great and make things easier to understand. IMHO those books are the API (Advanced Programming Interface) of the system. Those are you huge reference when you need the detail. If you are looking for a middle of the road version that has nearly everything then Champions Complete is your book. It has everything you need 90% of the time. It's the "good enough" version of the API.

 

The reason that the community hated the put the whole rules into the rulebook model is very simple. Giving pagecount to the system over and over reduces the pagecount each product has for ACTUAL content (ie the reason that you bought that Worldbook). If they add pagecount to make up for the lost pagecount needed for a full featured product, then you end up with a more expensive product. 

 

With Champions Complete a player has everything they need to run nearly every genre. It's also fairly inexpensive. IMHO it's total BS the notion that "People won't buy a Rulebook and a separate Genre Book" Sorry Savage Worlds has been thriving on that model since the beginning of time. What Hero Needs is to release books that have all of the bits generated (ie Spells, Weapons, Armor, Monsters, Starships, Motorcycles, Talents, Perks etc) for a given Campaign world. It also has any mechanics that aren't included in Champions complete included. It's ok refer people to one of the Complete books for the basic toolbox mechanics. Also to refer them to the Complete books for making new things that aren't included in the book or to customize something that is in the book.

 

Hero needs to stop being the Textbook company. While books like Star Hero, Fantasy Hero and Champions are very nice books to use as references for a particular genre. They are flavorless textbooks for building something WITH Flavor. IMHO the best books that Hero has ever published under their name were the Champion New Millennium. Ignoring the varient system and the sub genre that many people disliked. Those were books that made you want to play in the world. The Villains were real people and were interesting, the NPC were the same. They had a great graphical style that created a feel of the world with every page. Hero needs to make worlds LIKE that one with that sort of flavorful worldbuilding. That kind of writing is that makes PEG's Savage Worlds products so interesting and compelling. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Can I add that if they made a sourcebook for Champions complete, can they put in templates for quick character design? A few written generic npcs-thugs, normals and cops.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sadly, both Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete failed to do what we really needed. Instead of creating a product that you could use "out of the box" they created another tool for the toolkit. We already had a rules book and the genre treatment books. We didn't need those. We needed to have something that could capture the imagination. Something that had setting information, pre-built powers, NPCs, and adventures. I love the economized rules from those two products, but ultimately they were a pale rehash of stuff that was already there.

I think they did a decent job consolidating the rules and genre advice into a leaner, smaller package. I also think something was needed as reprinting the 2 volume core rules was not economically practical. But they were consolidations, not innovations.

 

I think key is that the full rules should not be the first release, the rules-light version should. The full rules will not suddenly sell a lot more, marketing or no, what is needed is a version, focused on a popular genre, that is worth sinking marketing money into as far as return on investment. As I said before, a game where the builds are invisible, prebought packages, where certain people and baddies will have cool things that not everyone can get, BUT, if you buy the new handy Book of Builds, you can totally build it yourself?

Agree 100%. IMO, there should be no need to release a new full rules book. We have that. We also have CC and FHC to extract the game rules from. We need the setting, the prefabs (many of which can be pulled from other products) and the adventure. I suspect a Licensed by Hero product could do this as easily as Hero.

 

And frankly, fantasy is probably the best genre to focus on first. It not only deals with issues that all the other genres would also have to deal with, as far as mechanics, but it simply is a genre that, if people rpg, they also happen to play just because, well, they're tabletop gamers.

I'm torn. Fantasy is the biggest market, but also the most fragmented market. A more niche genre, done well with less competition, might do better. A Fantasy game would have to have some unique elements that capture the imagination of a lot of gamers. Aligning a Supers game with the current popularity of Supers TV and movies could be a good move, but suffers from the lack of "generic supers" in that market.

 

The reason that the community hated the put the whole rules into the rulebook model is very simple. Giving pagecount to the system over and over reduces the pagecount each product has for ACTUAL content (ie the reason that you bought that Worldbook). If they add pagecount to make up for the lost pagecount needed for a full featured product, then you end up with a more expensive product.

Solution: two books. One is the rules. The second is the rest of the game. Hardcore Hero players can purchase individual volumes. If Hero takes off, then the separate volumes can be available as standalones and the rules in a bundle with various games.

 

But the reality is that many companies (including pre 4e Hero) published multiple games reprinting the same rules engine. Every d20 game has the rules included in the game, and they don't seem to be suffering. If we want one volume, just refurbish the rules set each time - Champions has Supers examples of 60 STR demigods and 8 STR skinny scientists, and Fantasy has examples of STR using an 18 STR burly warrior and an 8 STR frail wizard. BONUS POINTS: The examples are drawn largely from sample characters in the books.

[Nolgroth]

I think they did a decent job consolidating the rules and genre advice into a leaner, smaller package. I also think something was needed as reprinting the 2 volume core rules was not economically practical. But they were consolidations, not innovations.

 

Don't get me wrong, for what they were, CC and FHC were both well made books. I just don't think that they were ever going to be the shot in the arm that Hero needed. When asked at the time, I specifically mentioned putting campaign and adventure material into FHC. I still contend that both products would have been more successful if they focused on actual settings and adventure scenarios rather than rules/genre treatment consolidations. It's kind of hard to prove either way, as we got the latter and not the former. I could be wrong on that account. 

[TheDarkness]

To clarify something I think I did not say clearly.

 

To attract more players, I don't think the core rules need an overhaul(though there are some things I would argue could use it).

 

What is needed is a game, a prefab system, built off of the full system.

 

Something where characters can be made easily and fairly quickly right out of the gate. Characters that are off of prefab power builds, not just more prefab characters. Not all gamers use prepackaged adventures all that often, and if they don't, they also probably don't always use prefab characters. If you have a system that makescreating new characters, NPCs, and enemies simple and fast, and those creations also just happen to entirely work well for games using the whole entire system, it saves EVERYONE, new Hero players and GMs using the prefab system, and old ones using the full system, a huge amount of time, whereas the full system can be used for those cases where someone wants a lot of flexibility in design and granularity, instead of using it for every single creature and person populating the campaign.

 

Something where some things, that Hero allows anyone to have, are special rules for certain groups or people.

 

BUT, something that allows a little "pulling special things from other character type's lists" to give players a taste of the flexibility of the system.

 

Players playing such a game(and especially GMs) will naturally have an interest in building their own little special touches. At which point, the full rule books become an attractive option and an expanded market.

 

Now, on an unrelated note, I actually think, as far as the rules go, there are a few things that I'm not sold on:

 

The way vehicles are done, in my opinion, is unnecessarily convoluted, in part based on the fact that some aspects of movement are convoluted(I'm really not sold on the combat speed and non-combat speed thing, among other things).

 

The speed chart, well, it is a staple, but I think it almost encourages a certain amount of munchkin design, but the Speed stat I think should not change, I have been sold on each and every segment needing to roll under one's speed stat to act on 2D6, but I'm sure there's issues with that.

 

I see no real reason mental combat shouldn't mostly be similar to physical combat, so that a mental stun and mental body stat provide a mechanic that we already know works well.

 

And, as I've said before elsewhere, I think the martial arts system is a patch that loses most of the granularity of Hero, as well as, and I know many will disagree, not mirroring actual fighting any better than OR capturing the cinematic aspects of comic book fighting any better than normal builds can, and, in my opinion, actually worse because of the loss of the granularity.

 

Lastly, there is a good argument for a kind of pool that can work with skills but possibly not powers, for things like martial arts, detective skills, inventor skills, etc.

[Roter Baron]

Tasha is right: SW is good because the Settings and Worlds are interesting and "ready to play", not book that tell you: "Here is Fantasy HERO - a great toolkit for ALL KINDS of fantasy campaigns. Now read it - and build it on your own!"

 

That's like looking were a place to live and be shown an place, the material, tool and a plan to build your onw house. Nice, if you hav ethe time and the know-how and the will to do excatly that. In the end you have your onw custom build house.

Most people would just rent a flat and be happy!

 

One think I half disagree with Tasha is to simply transfer the "one rulebook" approach of SW to HERO. At least in Germany they sell the SW-rulebook in English (Explorer Edition) for €9,95. The German edition goes for the same price, the so called "Gentleman's Edition is a hardcover, German edition of the rules that included many, many old rules option that aren't in the Explorer's Edition any more and sells for € 19.95.

At prices like it doesn't even make sense to shoplift them!

 

So, you have a ruleset that you can get for less than 10 €uros (or less than 20 if you really want it all), which include one fantasy-adventure (or five adventures of different genres) ready to plan. Plus you have dozens of Adventures free for download!

That should entice gamers to buy the book who are just interested to see what SW is all about.

 

Now add one supplement with a originla world AND a campaign that is also ready-to-play and the NEXT YEAR of gaming is down. all for less than 50 €uros!

 

Since HERO has to compete with universal systems like that the price of the basic rulebook is very important,

[Tasha]

But the reality is that many companies (including pre 4e Hero) published multiple games reprinting the same rules engine. Every d20 game has the rules included in the game, and they don't seem to be suffering. If we want one volume, just refurbish the rules set each time - Champions has Supers examples of 60 STR demigods and 8 STR skinny scientists, and Fantasy has examples of STR using an 18 STR burly warrior and an 8 STR frail wizard. BONUS POINTS: The examples are drawn largely from sample characters in the books.

 

Pathfinder doesn't have a game world built into the rulebooks. The game world is detailed in another book that is separate from the main rulebook. Foes/Monsters are detailed in a third book etc. 

 

The difference between Paizo's approach and Hero's approach is that you can sit down and play a pathfinder game with less effort than Fantasy Hero. Hero gives you a toolkit but no finished parts. Pathfinder is full of finished parts. Which makes Pathfinder easier to approach for gamers and non gamers alike. 

 

Pathfinder gives you a finished computer that has a few customization options. Hero gives you a bucket of circuitboards and various chips and a soldering iron with manual, so you can build any computer from the ground up.

 

You could probably build a very basic Hero System rules if you left out the Powers section. Included enough rules that talk about the different damage types and defense types. I am sure that if someone did a Hero Core you could probably get the page count down enough to make a ~$10 rulebook.

[steriaca]

Do you think Hero needs a new power called "Megaskill"? Basically priced so that it is the equivlent of a normal skill rolling with a -10 to make an impossible skill roll, the skill selection is designed to be generic as possible. You MUST define Megaskill when you buy it.

 

The defenitions are:

 

Science! (science skills)

 

Doing Things! (profesinal skills)

 

Spy/Detective Work! (deuction, stealth, shadowing, and other skills useful in a big city)

 

Athletics! (climbing, breakfall, acrobatics, ks: all sports, ps: all sports)

[zslane]

Actually, the CSB must out of necessity come first. It is the API that allows everything else to be built. Without a complete description of the game system, authors can't write any books for customers. Whether or not a lot of CSBs would be sold is immaterial. It doesn't even need to be productized at first, as long as it is available in some form (like a PDF) to product authors. But regardless of whether or not it gets sold as a product, as a specification document it must exist first.

 

Currently 6e1/6e2 serve as the CSB, but I don't like those books. I don't like the presentation and I don't think the CSB needs that many words or that many pages. It needs to be streamlined and simplified to be more like the 4e HSR. Note that I'm not referring to the rules or mechanics themselves, but merely the way they are described and presented.

 

Once we have the new 7e CSB, then the hypothetical killer campaign setting can be developed and sold as a product line ala MHI.

 

Once we have the new 7e CSB, supplemental books can be released that use the system to create pre-built "stuff" (monsters, villains, vehicles, spells, weapons, martial arts styles, etc.).

 

All of this can be developed in parallel and sold in some sort of interleaved fashion, ideally on a monthly basis. But the 7e CSB is the foundation upon which everything is built.

 

Lastly, it is not necessary for every book/product to have the same sales potential or identical sales "success". The CSB would likely have a low sales expectation, but if it was a POD product, that wouldn't be an issue.

[Roter Baron]

Some brought up the BBB-approach and Tasha mentioned getting Instant Change back. I think that is the approach that HERO should take. And more so.

 

Back in the days I thought of GURPS as inferior to HERO when it came to Build-IT-Yourself because HERO is (or at least seems to strive towards) a rules engine that you can us etobuild any effect in multiple ways. You look at the "effect" the power has and then look up the pwer that describes the effect best regarding the rules.

 

I still think that HERO can do the best.

 

BUT: No many people really want to do that. And even more really don't want to have to do that to play the game.

So WHAT if some powers or talenst do not cost enough or too much? Building a flashlight in HERO for The Dark Detective is basically a nightmare - and then: Why not just get OIF NIghtvision goggles (with UV- und IR-Vision) and be done with it? Sure, it's not a flashlight and it won't light up the area like Change Enviroment, but it's less of a headache and cost not END.

 

Instead just add a "Gadgets" department and put there "Flashlight - 1 point" and be done with it!

"Combat Reflexes" gives +5 to DEX to act first.

"Increased Comabt Reflexes" is +10 DEX to act first.

 

Like Tasha and someone else said - more finished parts, less tinkering.

 

And the real key to success is: Good gaming material! And that is what HERO is lacking. I really hav eto admit it, but the last Champions adventures for 6th edition were less than inspiring (just my opinion) and adventures for all other genres basically non-existent. MHI was the only exception and the short campaign a good start but not material that would anyone really tell their friends about "that cool campaign".

 

If you ask me for my HERO favourites I would say:

1. Dark Champions 4th Edition + Justice,not Law + Muderrers' Row + Underworld Enemies + Hudson City Blues - KICKASS Vigilante gaming! Shadows of the City was also very good, if a little to "super" for my taste but still very good if you like more punch in your Dark Champions setting

2. Western HERO 4th Edition - some glaring mistakes in the stas of some creatures non-withstanding (scorpion!) a very good approach to the genre and a very nice adventure

2. Fantasy Hero 4th Edition - great essays, great background, all you need

3. Pulp HERO 5th Edition + Thrilling HERO Adventures + Masterminds & Madmen - best is Thrilling Adventures. Pulp HERO is the best supplement for 5th edition AND includes all its shortfalls: WAY too long, giving you several mouthful of well-researched information - and not much you can use to readily use. M&M has nice ideas but mostly sub-par illistrations. Still good stuff.

4. Champions Villains Volume I-III for 6th Edition - BEAUTIFULL! Best Enemies Books EVER!

5. Clasical Enemies for 4th Edition - basically the same as 4 -but shorter and most approachable and useful.